Arlene Foster and the RHI scandal

Conservative

A Little Pony wrote: »

Direct Rule is coming, so this is all irrelevant.

As much as people in the south are apathetic to NI, the "British" are not even aware of its existence.

May well be worth it.

FrancieBrady

Conservative wrote: »

As much as people in the south are apathetic to NI, the "British" are not even aware of its existence.

May well be worth it.

Theresa May must be delighted. All the cuts she will have to make and no executive to deal with. All because Arlene would not stand aside for a few weeks. Ouch!

RicePat

A Little Pony wrote: »

lol, anytime Unionism is the top party like the DUP it must be sectarian. It exists, yes, but you don't hear Sinn Fein opponents saying that about Sinn Fein if they win seats. West Belfast would vote for a pony with a SF badge on it, why can't East Belfast?

I was referring to
A) The DUP going around telling people that the Brexit referendum was a "de facto border poll"
The fact that they have been embroiled in corruption for years now and every time they go to the electorate they dont talk about policies, they beat the sectarian drum, loudly and proudly.

They are undoubtedly a sectarian party, the sad part is that certain people, a huge amount of certain people, are still susceptible to that

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF unseated a PBP (a poll topper last time round) and Alex Atwood SDLP lost a seat this time.

Clearly you are completely wrong about what West Belfast votes for.

It is very disappointing to see middle ground MLAs like Atwood and the PBP lose out to the extremes of SF. Mixed day for Northern Ireland as one extreme party loses seats and votes, if only the other one could lose them too.

RicePat

Conservative wrote: »

You are showing your bias here.

Where did I mention the word "extreme".?

My first comment congratulated Michelle O'Neill on the great gains she has made for SF? I have great respect for MMcG.


When they stop selling sectarian material on their website they can begin to accuse others of sectarianism.

Sinn Fein is not progressive
.

I'd love you to show me some of this "sectarian material." Bar a few IRA t-shirts there's nothing even questionable on it and you'd be hard pressed to argue that they were sectarian.

In terms of every other major party in the north they are miles ahead on marriage equality, lgbt rights, reproductive rights, anti-austerity issues, travellers rights. I mean, how can you actually argue, especially within the context of the north, that they arent progressive?? Somebody is certainly showing their bias here

RicePat

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very disappointing to see middle ground MLAs like Atwood and the PBP lose out to the extremes of SF. Mixed day for Northern Ireland as one extreme party loses seats and votes, if only the other one could lose them too.

Like I said in post 391, explain this "middle ground" and "extreme" nonsense. It's an empty blurb, a meaningless cliche.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

It is very disappointing to see middle ground MLAs like Atwood and the PBP lose out to the extremes of SF. Mixed day for Northern Ireland as one extreme party loses seats and votes, if only the other one could lose them too.

Analyse the vote, Atwood lost out because more people came out not less.
That is a good thing even if you don't like who got elected.

twinytwo

A Little Pony wrote: »

The woman should resign in absolute shame. Horrific leader and is not moving the DUP forward by strengthening the DUP vote. I'll be asking my local MP to ask her to resign or hopefully the DUP rounds on her. The bigger issue is more important than her and I'm sure she would agree herself.

At least re-election of muppets and gombeens is not solely a republic issue...
Foster retains her seat. Just goes to show you people never learn


35 seats down -SF 15 -DUP 9

FrancieBrady

Mike Nesbitt resigns. Wrong leader.

RicePat

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Mike Nesbitt resigns. Wrong leader.

Liberal(ish) leader of a conservative party. Was never going to work. Natural successor would have been Danny Kennedy but he got the chop as well.

Seth Brundle

Irish Indo live blog reporting that Foster is elected.

FrancieBrady

kbannon wrote: »

Irish Indo live blog reporting that Foster is elected.

She was elected a good while ago. Down to the last seat now and it looks like SF are going to take it from lord Morrow DUP. Big result for SF if they do that.

RicePat

kbannon wrote: »

Irish Indo live blog reporting that Foster is elected.

She was 2000 over the quota last time, didnt even reach it this time and looks like her second candidate wont get elected either.
The DUP will smile for the cameras but there are bound to be questions behind the scenes about her leadership. She was the the single biggest vote winner for sinn fein and has presided over unionism losing their majority in the assembly for the first time since partition.

FrancieBrady

DUP lose the last seat to SF in Fermanagh South Tyrone.

FrancieBrady

McCausland gone too. Tough day for the DUP. It will be back to the arrogance now. In marked contrast to Nesbitt.

LENNY86

DUP petition of concern is now gone isnt it.

LENNY86

FrancieBrady wrote: »

DUP lose the last seat to SF in Fermanagh South Tyrone.

Huge coup for the shinners, a few days after Bobby started the strike and the seat he won while fasting.

blanch152

RicePat wrote: »

I'd love you to show me some of this "sectarian material." Bar a few IRA t-shirts there's nothing even questionable on it and you'd be hard pressed to argue that they were sectarian.

In terms of every other major party in the north they are miles ahead on marriage equality, lgbt rights, reproductive rights, anti-austerity issues, travellers rights. I mean, how can you actually argue, especially within the context of the north, that they arent progressive?? Somebody is certainly showing their bias here

IRA t-shirts are not sectarian?

I have heard it all now.

A Little Pony

I don't think a woman can lead Unionism. Hope Arlene Foster stands down, get Ian Paisley Jr to be leader.

LENNY86

FrancieBrady wrote: »

DUP lose the last seat to SF in Fermanagh South Tyrone.

blanch152 wrote: »

IRA t-shirts are not sectarian?

I have heard it all now.

How is it secterian to remember the IRAs sacrifices throughout the struggle?
Did you remember the 1916 centenary?

RicePat

blanch152 wrote: »

IRA t-shirts are not sectarian?

I have heard it all now.

No more sectarian than a Brit Army t-shirt.

FrancieBrady

Everyone is being very polite as is typical on an election night. But it has been a traumatic day for unionism that will have implications.
Arlene scooting away and not talking to the BBC is significant. The bunker mentality will grow.

A Little Pony

She scooted away because she is going to get taken apart within the DUP and wider Unionism.

Leonard Hofstadter

Amazing day. I simply can't believe it. The DUP mightn't even be the biggest party.

I feel awful sorry for Mike Nesbitt and the UUP. They tried to be someway sensible and pragmatic, offering to transfer to the equally someway sensible and pragmatic SDLP, but sadly lost bigtime. Actually, perhaps this is the only reason the DUP will be the biggest party, if that is what transpires.

I have zero sympathy for the DUP, they should have lost more seats if anything. Between Brexit, which is totally against the will of the people in Northern Ireland, and the appalling abuse of the petition of concern on equal marriage etc, they're just a totally backward and bigoted party really aren't they. The ironic thing is, the 'mainland' (who after all the DUP is supposedly trying to replicate, being British and all that kind of palaver) brought in equal marriage and other socially progressive measures before Ireland did yet the nationalist parties have long ago moved with the times while the DUP stays stuck in the past.

RicePat

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Everyone is being very polite as is typical on an election night. But it has been a traumatic day for unionism that will have implications.
Arlene scooting away and not talking to the BBC is significant. The bunker mentality will grow.

Someone else must have written Arlene's speech for her, it was all measured and polite.

The DuP will put on a brave face but there must be people behind the scenes quietly acknowledging that while Arlene is at the helm, Sinn Féin will be on the rise

A Little Pony

RicePat wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Everyone is being very polite as is typical on an election night. But it has been a traumatic day for unionism that will have implications.
Arlene scooting away and not talking to the BBC is significant. The bunker mentality will grow.

Someone else must have written Arlene's speech for her, it was all measured and polite.

The DuP will put on a brave face but there must be people behind the scenes quietly acknowledging that while Arlene is at the helm, Sinn Féin will be on the rise

If Sinn Fein can't become largest party after RHI and a crap leader in the DUP, then I'm not so sure. She will be gone soon enough, even if it is 6 months or a year, I don't see her lasting any longer than that. DUP will be delighted if they hold what they have and just solidify. All things considered its probably been an alright showing.

RicePat

captainspeed wrote: »

Amazing day. I simply can't believe it. The DUP mightn't even be the biggest party.

I feel awful sorry for Mike Nesbitt and the UUP. They tried to be someway sensible and pragmatic, offering to transfer to the equally someway sensible and pragmatic SDLP, but sadly lost bigtime. Actually, perhaps this is the only reason the DUP will be the biggest party, if that is what transpires.

Problem with Mike is he was trying to be the liberal leader of a conservative party. People have this idea the UUP are "the middle ground." They are not. They have engaged in voting pacts with the DUP, merged with the Conservatives and in the likes of tom Elliot and steve aiken have some of the most craven bigots in the north. (Aiken in particular couldnt resist crowing about "army councils" in his acceptance speech. :rolleyes: ) As someone was talking about earlier, the notion UUP are "middle ground" is purely a carefully crafted perception

I have zero sympathy for the DUP, they should have lost more seats if anything. Between Brexit, which is totally against the will of the people in Northern Ireland, and the appalling abuse of the petition of concern on equal marriage etc, they're just a totally backward and bigoted party really aren't they. The ironic thing is, the 'mainland' (who after all the DUP is supposedly trying to replicate, being British and all that kind of palaver) brought in equal marriage and other socially progressive measures before Ireland did yet the nationalist parties have long ago moved with the times while the DUP stays stuck in the past.

Yeah, it's a horrendous indictment of the unionist community that the DUP can act the way they have and not suffer electorally because they beat the sectarian drum. If Sinn Féin had pulled the stunts the DUP have and then tried to tribalise the election they'd be lucky to scrape back into the Assembly with enough members to formally constitute a party

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I saw a few news outlets today covering a survey by the Electoral Reform Society that shows how entrenched the tribal politics are. They used data from more than 4,000 voters questioned after the last election and found that only 4% of Catholics would give their first vote to a unionist party, and only 2% of Protestants would give a first vote to a nationalist party. Also, out of all preferences by Catholics, only 8% go to unionist parties; out of all preferences by Protestants, only 6% go to nationalist parties.

That suggests to me not only is their little prospect for a 'new type' of politics, but that there won't be any change for several decades.

I posted that two weeks ago. Nesbitt's stance on voting across the community divide was admirable, but totally out of step with the way the electorate operates.

It's been a good day for SF but I think long term the results will have negative consequences. The UUP will not reach out to the SDLP again I'm sure, so the community divide will surely be even more entrenched now. SDLP and SF would be silly not to move closer to one another if they want to do well in future elections.

Must say I do love the fact that Nelson McCausland lost out. I've listened to him a fair few times on the radio and he must be one of the most bitter DUP members out there, with an extraordinary hostility towards Irish culture.

FrancieBrady

captainspeed wrote: »

Amazing day. I simply can't believe it. The DUP mightn't even be the biggest party.

I feel awful sorry for Mike Nesbitt and the UUP. They tried to be someway sensible and pragmatic, offering to transfer to the equally someway sensible and pragmatic SDLP, but sadly lost bigtime. Actually, perhaps this is the only reason the DUP will be the biggest party, if that is what transpires.

I have zero sympathy for the DUP, they should have lost more seats if anything. Between Brexit, which is totally against the will of the people in Northern Ireland, and the appalling abuse of the petition of concern on equal marriage etc, they're just a totally backward and bigoted party really aren't they. The ironic thing is, the 'mainland' (who after all the DUP is supposedly trying to replicate, being British and all that kind of palaver) brought in equal marriage and other socially progressive measures before Ireland did yet the nationalist parties have long ago moved with the times while the DUP stays stuck in the past.

The bottom line is that Nesbitt did a solo run. Parachuted in from journalism he quickly discovered that all unionism is still intransigent.

The people have told both parties what they think. There has been a change and it's size will dawn over the weekend. Unionism no longer commands a majority, they now have to behave as normal politicians to get anything done.

That's a good day for me.

LuckyLloyd

For the first time, there isn't a Unionist majority in the assembly. That's significant. More significant is that the DUP lost their ability to raise POCs to block legislation like Gay Marriage, etc. Great stuff.

LuckyLloyd

A Little Pony wrote: »

I don't think a woman can lead Unionism. Hope Arlene Foster stands down, get Ian Paisley Jr to be leader.

That's an incredibly regressive sentiment.

A Little Pony

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

For the first time, there isn't a Unionist majority in the assembly. That's significant. More significant is that the DUP lost their ability to raise POCs to block legislation like Gay Marriage, etc. Great stuff.

The Assembly won't get off the ground.

Conservative

RicePat wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

IRA t-shirts are not sectarian?

I have heard it all now.

No more sectarian than a Brit Army t-shirt.

I can only imagine the kind of moron who would wear either.

Regarding the RA shirts, probably Wolfe Tones fans. Hardcore nationalists without a word of Irish among them.

Jayop

Just had a wee look at the charter after that meme and I can't see a rule against it. I'll delete it gladly if it is banned.

FrancieBrady

It is incredible to listen to somebody STILL trying to say that this election was unnecessary.
How can you continue saying that after such a seismic shift in power?
Finally, a religiously bigoted party does not have enough power to halt ordinary decent equality driven legislation.
Regardless of the Orange-Green issues that in itself made an election worthwhile.

Will the DUP now have the courage to end the misguided career of a leader who turned out to be a sectarian throwback? We will wait and see. Momentous days ahead I think.

A Little Pony

The Assembly probably won't be up again for years, so all things considered it is irrelevant. Michelle O'Neil said she won't go into power sharing with Arlene Foster. Unionism needs to up its propaganda and get on the attack, less of the defensive. Destroy the lesser parties which have no chance of winning and elect a new leader of the DUP.

The DUP could elect a new leader in a few weeks, refuse to nominate and just go to another election and spark the Unionist electorate into light. I'd be very surprised if direct rule didn't come about.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

The Assembly probably won't be up again for years, so all things considered it is irrelevant. Michelle O'Neil said she won't go into power sharing with Arlene Foster. Unionism needs to up its propaganda and get on the attack, less of the defensive. Destroy the lesser parties which have no chance of winning and elect a new leader of the DUP.

The DUP could elect a new leader in a few weeks, refuse to nominate and just go to another election and spark the Unionist electorate into light. I'd be very surprised if direct rule didn't come about.

So you recommend more sectarian bile to attempt to 'ignite' a unionist electorate?
Interesting.
Would you deign to go to the polling center and actually vote next time or is it not sectarian enough yet?

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The Assembly probably won't be up again for years, so all things considered it is irrelevant. Michelle O'Neil said she won't go into power sharing with Arlene Foster. Unionism needs to up its propaganda and get on the attack, less of the defensive. Destroy the lesser parties which have no chance of winning and elect a new leader of the DUP.

The DUP could elect a new leader in a few weeks, refuse to nominate and just go to another election and spark the Unionist electorate into light. I'd be very surprised if direct rule didn't come about.

So you recommend more sectarian bile to attempt to 'ignite' a unionist electorate?
Interesting.
Would you deign to go to the polling center and actually vote next time or is it not sectarian enough yet?

You have to use propaganda to get the message out and to inspire your core base. This election left so many Unionists like myself disillusioned. Sometimes you have to ignite the fire in the belly again. Hopefully this does it for Unionism.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

You have to use propaganda to get the message out and to inspire your core base. This election left so many Unionists like myself disillusioned. Sometimes you have to ignite the fire in the belly again. Hopefully this does it for Unionism.

Surely the lesson from this election is that if you try to fight them by invoking archaic sectarian mantras then you will lose - heavily.
Are the DUP mature enough to learn their lesson, we will see at 4pm when they have called a press conference I believe.

ArthurDayne

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Surely the lesson from this election is that if you try to fight them by invoking archaic sectarian mantras then you will lose - heavily.
Are the DUP mature enough to learn their lesson, we will see at 4pm when they have called a press conference I believe.

To be honest, I'm not so sure about that. The DUP lost their petition of concern yes, and gave SF a renewed impetus, but ultimately they remain the largest party -- despite all their backward ideology, messing up on RHI and doing very little to soften their image outside of their support base. Ultimately, people still voted for them in droves. The overall result was that when the DUP retreated into the traditional phalanx of Unionist politics, Nationalists went straight for SF.

Unionism will be feeling a shock today, in the wake of a timely reminder that Irish Nationalism is alive and well in the north. But the DUP will take some satisfaction from the fact that they have remained the largest party despite the fact that (a) their public image was at a low point and (b) that they did next to nothing to address this, save for mobilising Unionism to stop SF from becoming the largest party.

FrancieBrady

ArthurDayne wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not so sure about that. The DUP lost their petition of concern yes, and gave SF a renewed impetus, but ultimately they remain the largest party -- despite all their backward ideology, messing up on RHI and doing very little to soften their image outside of their support base. Ultimately, people still voted for them in droves. The overall result was that when the DUP retreated into the traditional phalanx of Unionist politics, Nationalists went straight for SF.

Unionism will be feeling a shock today, in the wake of a timely reminder that Irish Nationalism is alive and well in the north. But the DUP will take some satisfaction from the fact that they have remained the largest party despite the fact that (a) their public image was at a low point and (b) that they did next to nothing to address this, save for mobilising Unionism to stop SF from becoming the largest party.

Well I think we will get a clear indication if any lessons have been learnt by how the DUP respond. If Arlene goes, that will be significant and a sign that they are willing to be mature.

*press conference not happening now according to RTE, around 'persistent rumours about Arlene Foster'.

A Little Pony

ArthurDayne wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Surely the lesson from this election is that if you try to fight them by invoking archaic sectarian mantras then you will lose - heavily.
Are the DUP mature enough to learn their lesson, we will see at 4pm when they have called a press conference I believe.

To be honest, I'm not so sure about that.  The DUP lost their petition of concern yes, and gave SF a renewed impetus, but ultimately they remain the largest party -- despite all their backward ideology, messing up on RHI and doing very little to soften their image outside of their support base. Ultimately, people still voted for them in droves.  The overall result was that when the DUP retreated into the traditional phalanx of Unionist politics, Nationalists went straight for SF.  

Unionism will be feeling a shock today, in the wake of a timely reminder that Irish Nationalism is alive and well in the north.  But the DUP will take some satisfaction from the fact that they have remained the largest party despite the fact that (a) their public image was at a low point and (b) that they did next to nothing to address this, save for mobilising Unionism to stop SF from becoming the largest party.

Sinn Fein performed very well, very good strategy to call the election but as you say ultimately the DUP still remains the largest party. New leader is imminent. Arlene will be getting an absolute grilling by her community right now, trust me.

ArthurDayne

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well I think we will get a clear indication if any lessons have been learnt by how the DUP respond. If Arlene goes, that will be significant and a sign that they are willing to be mature.

*press conference not happening now according to RTE, around 'persistent rumours about Arlene Foster'.

Yeah, I would say if they are going to push her then they should push her now -- because they will never be seen to dance to SF's fiddle in the negotiations to come, in which it seems apparent that SF will not work with Arlene Foster. If there are internal talks going on right now, I imagine they will be something along the lines of whether conceding defeat to SF on Foster's position is worth avoiding a stalemate and direct rule.

The DUP have in many ways have come to a crossroads. Demographics have changed and, while I think they actually did better in this election than people seem to think they did, it is clear that the old days of Unionist leaders being able to whip up a frenzy to get their way are almost entirely spent. They now have to decide whether the DUP evolves as a party and brings itself into a 21st century frame of mind, or opt for that tried-and-tested ploy of sticking up the Red Hand and convincing Unionists of a plot to destroy Ulster.

18% of the Northern Irish electorate voted DUP, it's hardly the stuff of catastrophe. But the warning signs are there, and their reaction now will likely define the course of Unionism for a generation.

FrancieBrady

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Yeah, I would say if they are going to push her then they should push her now -- because they will never be seen to dance to SF's fiddle in the negotiations to come, in which it seems apparent that SF will not work with Arlene Foster. If there are internal talks going on right now, I imagine they will be something along the lines of whether conceding defeat to SF on Foster's position is worth avoiding a stalemate and direct rule.

The DUP have in many ways have come to a crossroads. Demographics have changed and, while I think they actually did better in this election than people seem to think they did, it is clear that the old days of Unionist leaders being able to whip up a frenzy to get their way are almost entirely spent. They now have to decide whether the DUP evolves as a party and brings itself into a 21st century frame of mind, or opt for that tried-and-tested ploy of sticking up the Red Hand and convincing Unionists of a plot to destroy Ulster.

18% of the Northern Irish electorate voted DUP, it's hardly the stuff of catastrophe. But the warning signs are there, and their reaction now will likely define the course of Unionism for a generation.

The poor old UUP have been trying the modernising stunt but have failed with a succession of leaders.
One has to ask does 'unionism' itself need to be discarded, because it seems to me that it is appealing to less and less people. 10 years at this rate of change could see them down to 20 - 30 seats overall.

A Little Pony

That is like saying does Republicanism need discarded because Sinn Fein had a poor election in 2016. It is one election, the DUP weren't prepared for it and Sinn Fein took advantage of it. The next election will see the DUP back with more seats.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

That is like saying does Republicanism need discarded because Sinn Fein had a poor election in 2016. It is one election, the DUP weren't prepared for it and Sinn Fein took advantage of it. The next election will see the DUP back with more seats.

SF have modernised republicanism, they have gone with the flow. The UUP show what happens when you try the same with Unionism. It patently doesn't have an update function as it is stuck firmly in the past.

I wouldn't be so sure the DUP will be back with more seats at all. It was almost stripped back to it's core support this time, which is, like it or not, a dying breed.

munsterlegend

FrancieBrady wrote: »

SF have modernised republicanism, they have gone with the flow. The UUP show what happens when you try the same with Unionism. It patently doesn't have an update function as it is stuck firmly in the past.

I wouldn't be so sure the DUP will be back with more seats at all. It was almost stripped back to it's core support this time, which is, like it or not, a dying breed.

They are a dying breed and all dinosaurs become extinct. unionism was always a failed concept given it's lack of any contribution to Britain. Brexit has only brought forward the date of its demise.

funkey_monkey

What's the odds of DUP getting a new leader and going back for a second election after a period of direct rule to try and shake out the unionist voters?

Is it likely?

FrancieBrady

funkey_monkey wrote: »

What's the odds of DUP getting a new leader and going back for a second election after a period of direct rule to try and shake out the unionist voters?

Is it likely?

Certainly possible. But I think they might be afraid of the outcome. They were lucky that there is only one seat in it.

Jayop

Ffs just look at the faces of the Unionist MLA's compared to the SF ones. Youth and vibrance vs old Grey men. Dinosaurs.