Farmers Profits Should Be Tax Free

b0gg3r

Wanderer78 wrote: »

is it small businesses are employing the bulk of the workforce?

That's the impression I have, but haven't a source for it.

I think the key difference is that SMEs don't have half of their income propped up by a grant.

NovemberJersey

b0gg3r wrote: »

I have to say, that was a very entertaining read.

Accusations of him being a troll though I think are unfounded.

While he's clearly not a small farmer, he's certainly not a large-scale professional one. I don't know about ye, but the farmers I have dealings with do have the "woe is me" attitude that this guy has perfected.

@OP
You say yourself that you have a profitable farm, despite poor prices. Why then are you not investing in making your farm more efficient rather than just looking for tax breaks? You acknowledge that small farmers have little realistic chance of being a successful business, and yet spurn the idea of fewer, larger companies who can run large farms efficiently.

You want a tax break and yet you are in receipt of SFP. Would you be profitable without this grant? If so I think you should reconsider your position on how much money the gubberment is taking from you.

I'm not the best at putting my point across but I'm glad to see you've got the general gist of what I mean!

Tbh this year has been as bad as it can get for us in the dairying sector, back a few years ago I remember reading in the Sunday Times something which said dairy farmers worst case scenario would be 26c/L, depending on how well established you are that's what it costs to produce the milk in the first place without taking a wage out of it for yourself. My farm doesn't have much debt so I am producing milk at cheaper than that but all the reinvesting of profits in the world won't let me produce milk much cheaper than what I'm doing at the moment…. I still make good money from keeping the calves each year as well so I'm doing exceptionally well compared to the average farmer in a year like this… To put things in context in 1989 we were getting paid £1.12 for every gallon of milk (4.5 litres) and this summer we were getting €1 per gallon, the price of milk was down 10% compared to 27 years ago while costs have gone giganticly through the roof… ya to cut to the chase the small farmers are only fooling themselves if they think they've a future in farming… the top guys in teagsc say if your starting up as a dairy farmer you need at least 100 cows for it to be worthwhile, the average supplier to Kerry group has 70 cows, with margins down you need to increase production… I came across incorrectly if I gave off the impression I was against very big commercial farms, someone earlier on posted a link about the recipients to the 20 biggest SFP grants in Ireland, my point was that a lot of them weren't even farmers per se, they were companies owned between a few people and weren't typical examples of big farmers, that person was trying to disprove what I had said that big farmers didn't really benefit that much from the SFP if you look at the bigger picture so they posted that link saying I was wrong but my point was that the 20 ones named out on the list weren't your typical big farmers, Larry goodman was no. 1 on the list for example, he's got a monopoly over the beef sector in this country, he's not exactly what I'd think of as a farmer

NovemberJersey

veetwin wrote: »

So by extension everyone who works hard shouldn't have to pay tax? Taxes are paid on profits no?



Maybe 40 years ago. It's a big enough player but in no way the back bone.


Again maybe 40 years ago. Not now


Again taxes are paid on profits no?


Why is a handout from the EU to you not subject to tax?

Even for a farmer you seem to have a remarkable sense of self entitlement and seem to think that the world revolves around you and your farm.

You'd have to be a farmer to get it really, I've explained myself better later on in the thread

zdragon

Supply demand is one of the core rules of economics and also a key factor that drives prices up or down.

b0gg3r

NovemberJersey wrote: »

To put things in context in 1989 we were getting paid £1.12 for every gallon of milk (4.5 litres) and this summer we were getting €1 per gallon, the price of milk was down 10% compared to 27 years ago while costs have gone giganticly through the roof…

Gonna show my ignorance here but... How have cost prices increased?

For an industry with little change in the last 30 years to only have a 10% drop in price to me a mercy.

If I was logging in the 80s I guarantee you I'd kill to only have prices drop 10% over 30 years.

Wanderer78

b0gg3r wrote: »

Gonna show my ignorance here but... How have cost prices increased?

For an industry with little change in the last 30 years to only have a 10% drop in price to me a mercy.

If I was logging in the 80s I guarantee you I'd kill to only have prices drop 10% over 30 years.

insurance and energy costs maybe?

jonon9

No I disagree farmers should pay their tax like the rest of the working people. I work my arse off and pay tax why should a farmer get special treatment.

hannible the cannible

NovemberJersey wrote: »

You'd have to be a farmer to get it really, I've explained myself better later on in the thread

:-)

kevthegaff

Lads Im a regular poster on boards farming section, not once has November jersey been on it, one word troll! Aside I believe farmers should pay tax

NovemberJersey

kevthegaff wrote: »

Lads Im a regular poster on boards farming section, not once has November jersey been on it, one word troll! Aside I believe farmers should pay tax

3,000 posts in 5 years, I'd say you've a great time you do. And I regularly talk to other farmers on boards, all you've to do is look at my profile?

We've extensively discussed the ways that tax breaks could be engineered for farmers through cutting out grants and introducing a land tax, did you accuse me of being a troll because I talked about getting rid of the free money that's being throwing to people?

rangler1

kevthegaff wrote: »

Lads Im a regular poster on boards farming section, not once has November jersey been on it, one word troll! Aside I believe farmers should pay tax

I dunno,
but i think I saw a few phases i recognised.

Red Sheds

NovemberJersey wrote: »

3,000 posts in 5 years, I'd say you've a great time you do. And I regularly talk to other farmers on boards, all you've to do is look at my profile?

We've extensively discussed the ways that tax breaks could be engineered for farmers through cutting out grants and introducing a land tax, did you accuse me of being a troll because I talked about getting rid of the free money that's being throwing to people?

I post occasionally in the farming section, but learn more from it than I offer from people like Kevthegaff who are very knowledgeable and willing to share their advice and experiences for nothing. I am a farmer too, Its a business like any other, pay tax when you make profits, change your business or get out if it isnt working, simple as that.

This is a troll here...

NovemberJersey

So basically to get things straight because I'm against the Single Farm Payments that means I'm a troll and presumeably the spawn of the devil too? Don't be so narrow minded… all I'm saying is that if you look at the bigger picture the SFP & farm assistance is doing farming in this country no good and should be gotten rid of and a land tax brought in so people either have to use it or lose it as regards their land as it's our only natural resource and then in exchange the farmers that are left who are making above a certain level of profit could get a tax break… so instead of handing out free money for the sake of it we would actually be rewarding people for their hard work… pretty sad if that upsets you to the extent that people must call me a troll

NovemberJersey

b0gg3r wrote: »

Gonna show my ignorance here but... How have cost prices increased?

For an industry with little change in the last 30 years to only have a 10% drop in price to me a mercy.

If I was logging in the 80s I guarantee you I'd kill to only have prices drop 10% over 30 years.

Costs have increased through everything I can think of to tell the truth… I bought a tractor 10 years ago for €60k, im after buying the same John Deere now for €90k, it's the exact same spec but 50% more expensive… things like Insureance and electricity that were minuscule in cost before have now gotten very expensive, because of people on the dole getting €200 a week for doing f••• all its expensive to hire labour… price of fertiliser has gotten extremely expensive, price of diesel gone way up… even now i have to take more wages out of the farm just to get by so my own labour expenses are gone up a lot… the list could be a mile long… milk price in the summer just gone is the worst it's been since 2009 which went down to 22c/L for us and in 2009 that was a total disaster but even since then things have gotten a lot more expensive… in 2014 I was getting 40c/L for my milk during the summer and in the summer just gone I was getting 22c/L for a good while, so it's not easy get by when your raw material stays the same price or goes up and the price your getting paid halves

JeffKenna

NovemberJersey wrote: »

So basically to get things straight because I'm against the Single Farm Payments that means I'm a troll and presumeably the spawn of the devil too? Don't be so narrow minded… all I'm saying is that if you look at the bigger picture the SFP & farm assistance is doing farming in this country no good and should be gotten rid of and a land tax brought in so people either have to use it or lose it as regards their land as it's our only natural resource and then in exchange the farmers that are left who are making above a certain level of profit could get a tax break… so instead of handing out free money for the sake of it we would actually be rewarding people for their hard work… pretty sad if that upsets you to the extent that people must call me a troll

So at present Irelands tax legislation is based on the concept of the more you earn the more tax you pay.

Under your proposal, we'll change that to a basis of the more you earn the less you pay. So we might be looking at a third rate of tax, perhaps back down to 20% for anyone earning over 100k?

Wanderer78

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Costs have increased through everything I can think of to tell the truth… I bought a tractor 10 years ago for €60k, im after buying the same John Deere now for €90k, it's the exact same spec but 50% more expensive… things like Insureance and electricity that were minuscule in cost before have now gotten very expensive, because of people on the dole getting €200 a week for doing f••• all its expensive to hire labour… price of fertiliser has gotten extremely expensive, price of diesel gone way up… even now i have to take more wages out of the farm just to get by so my own labour expenses are gone up a lot… the list could be a mile long… milk price in the summer just gone is the worst it's been since 2009 which went down to 22c/L for us and in 2009 that was a total disaster but even since then things have gotten a lot more expensive… in 2014 I was getting 40c/L for my milk during the summer and in the summer just gone I was getting 22c/L for a good while, so it's not easy get by when your raw material stays the same price or goes up and the price your getting paid halves

unemployment is actually extremely complex but this isnt really the tread to talk about it

fepper

Your going around in circles with your argument here,farmers around here with 60 cows have suffered all the same cuts but getting on with life and not complaining and are doing ok

NovemberJersey

JeffKenna wrote: »

So at present Irelands tax legislation is based on the concept of the more you earn the more tax you pay.

Under your proposal, we'll change that to a basis of the more you earn the less you pay. So we might be looking at a third rate of tax, perhaps back down to 20% for anyone earning over 100k?

Can you stop misquoting me and maybe then we can have an actual debate?

Red Sheds

NovemberJersey wrote: »

3,000 posts in 5 years, I'd say you've a great time you do. And I regularly talk to other farmers on boards, all you've to do is look at my profile?

Hey November 124 posts in a month, you are heading for 7,500 in 5 years, go for it, very entertaining, we'll all have a great time.

JeffKenna

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Can you stop misquoting me and maybe then we can have an actual debate?

Well what are your figures? You state a lower tax rate for farmers above a certain level so I'm curious as to what it will be?

Will this apply to all self employed people or just farmers?

NovemberJersey

JeffKenna wrote: »

Well what are your figures? You state a lower tax rate for farmers above a certain level so I'm curious as to what it will be?

Will this apply to all self employed people or just farmers?

I think a 33% tax rate for all profits made by all farmers would suffice, it would hurt the small fellas but so be it

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I think a 33% tax rate for all profits made by all farmers would suffice, it would hurt the small fellas but so be it

How did you arrive at that figure?

Wanderer78

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I think a 33% tax rate for all profits made by all farmers would suffice, it would hurt the small fellas but so be it

i know little or nothing about farming but this comes across as 'corporate-farming' to me. large corporations are actually doing great damage to economies around the world including our own. some of the best known methods they cause damage is wide scale tax evasion and avoidance, amongst other things of course.

JeffKenna

NovemberJersey wrote: »

I think a 33% tax rate for all profits made by all farmers would suffice, it would hurt the small fellas but so be it

I presume that would suit a lot of part time farmers though? Pay tax on their job at the low rate and then instead of moving to the high rate on any farm profits it'll just revert to 33%.

ED E

Really taxes for famers should be more than average. They tend to live on said farms where every service is 10x more expensive to provide.

How about this NovemberJersey. You move to a town and commute to work every day, society will give you a tax break and still save money.

NovemberJersey

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i know little or nothing about farming but this comes across as 'corporate-farming' to me. large corporations are actually doing great damage to economies around the world including our own. some of the best known methods they cause damage is wide scale tax evasion and avoidance, amongst other things of course.

Factory farming will never prevail in Ireland because

1. Land is too expensive
2. It's hard to get more than a square kilometre of land in one block here in Kerry
3. We don't have a workforce willing to work in agriculture on the ground level
4. Labour is too expensive

NovemberJersey

JeffKenna wrote: »

I presume that would suit a lot of part time farmers though? Pay tax on their job at the low rate and then instead of moving to the high rate on any farm profits it'll just revert to 33%.

Ya exactly the part time farmers who have good quality land would be doing well with this. My plans would help every progressive farmer and they're surely the ones that deserve some looking out for

Graham

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Factory farming will never prevail in Ireland because

1. Land is too expensive
2. It's hard to get more than a square kilometre of land in one block here in Kerry
3. We don't have a workforce willing to work in agriculture on the ground level
4. Labour is too expensive

I'd hazard a guess the removal of all farm subsidies would significantly reduce the cost and availability of land.

The newly assembled large blocks of land would be much more suited to large-scale farming with a resulting reduction in the labour requirements.

JeffKenna

Graham wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess the removal of all farm subsidies would significantly reduce the cost and availability of land.

Don't forget the land tax.

fepper

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Factory farming will never prevail in Ireland because

1. Land is too expensive
2. It's hard to get more than a square kilometre of land in one block here in Kerry
3. We don't have a workforce willing to work in agriculture on the ground level
4. Labour is too expensive

You are advocating it by getting rid of small unproductive farming units