Taking a break from cut

Irishcrx

So I've been into the cutting phase for just over 4 month's now and have lost around 25 pounds down from 172 to 145 ish and am really starting to feel the effects on my body and mind. I'm lean around 11 - 12 percent body fat but my lifts are now starting to suffer and my body is starting to fight the weight loss meaning I have to add cardio and drop additional calories in order to continue to get down to 10 which was my original goal before going back into a bulk.

To reach it, I need more adjustments in diet and training...all sugar now has to be lost I think ie in coffee etc and no snacking/drink but with Xmas coming in and the way I'm feeling I think I need a break...not quitting I will get to it but a break.

I'm constantly exausted , constantly wanting more food as my body is taking ages to recover from training and literally begging me to feed it lol... I feel like I've no energy left to give... Has been a real eye opener so far and for the most part it's all gone well and I'm loving the lower body fat look but I think I need to eat maintenance for a weeks and recover before getting back on trap to lose the 5-10 pounds I have left in the new year.

Anyone here every felt the same and done similar?

Zillah

When you get to 10% do you think you'll stay there? I was in pretty much the same position. Got to 12% easily enough, but it became a bit of a slog from there, and I realised that even if I got down to 10% I'd probably pop back up to 12% at the drop of a hat in the first month of my next bulk.

Unless you've a specific reason (photo shoot, say) to want to hit 10% I'm not sure I'd bother. Too many sacrifices for minimal gain.

Alf Veedersane

Mike Israetel, amongst others, is a big advocate of taking a diet break every so often. Certainly sooner into the cut than you are now, ie maybe every 3 months.

Settle back to your new maintenance. Hold your current weight for at least a month and then cut again.

It allows your body to adjust to its 'new reality' and stops the constant cutting, which it isn't a big fan of.

Hold where you are. Let your body adjust and then go again and see if it's easier. It should be.

Alf Veedersane

Have a watch of this...might make more sense:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tVPlPM0d7eQ

Alf Veedersane

But mostly what Zillah said.

Transform

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Mike Israetel, amongst others, is a big advocate of taking a diet break every so often. Certainly sooner into the cut than you are now, ie maybe every 3 months.

Settle back to your new maintenance. Hold your current weight for at least a month and then cut again.

It allows your body to adjust to its 'new reality' and stops the constant cutting, which it isn't a big fan of.

Hold where you are. Let your body adjust and then go again and see if it's easier. It should be.

every so often, no a set time line.

Its like im now working with guys that are becoming what women have been like for years - when asked how long have you been trying to lose weight, answer "all the time".

6-8 week cycle in deficit, 2-4 weeks in maintenance, rinse, repeat.

However, the goal is to NOT have to constantly focus on your nutrition so if what you're doing is not sustainable over the long term then you've got to make some adjustments.

I very often see what youve described in people that have used a low carb approach to weight loss but then dont dial the carbs back up to about 40% of intake as they have leaned out because the attribute the loss to lower carbs not lower calorie intake.

Finally, the addiction to how lean someone has become can also be a problem as they build up anxiety around making any changes for fear their leaness will be taken away. They've overly identifid with the fruits of their action not the benefits of being healthy and fit. They've wrapped up their self worth in the praise they get from others or stolen looks they get from guys/girls in the gym.

Take a step back and write down the benefits of training that are NOT aesthetic related or the alternative can be what im seeing all the time which is burnt out, chronically fatigued people that may look fit but never feel fit.

Alf Veedersane

Agree with all of the above. I assumed the OP wasn't trying to drop to a level and maintain at that but as a leaner starting point for a bulk.

But absolutely if it's a case of "I want to be 10%" because that's a number they want to be, then that's different

Irishcrx

Thanks for all the advise above guys , pretty much all nail on the head for me.
Alf - Yes 10% is the point I want to get to for a lean bulk. It's not so much about getting to 10% and staying there but more setting the goal I wanted and achieving it then going from there back into a bulk and finding the point I feel the best at. I could lean bulk from here but it would bother me that I didn't reach my goal which I want to do.
As others have said , for me it's not so much aesthetic related but more so been lean and strong and at the moment I'm not feeling fit and am lacking energy , also starting a new job in January so need to get it right.
Decided this morning after reading this that I am going to follow through and take the maintenance break for 3-4 weeks then come back to it and do the additional 4-6 week cut before heading into the lean bulk again.
Thanks for all the advice lads.

slicus ricus

Irishcrx wrote: »

So I've been into the cutting phase for just over 4 month's now and have lost around 25 pounds down from 172 to 145 ish and am really starting to feel the effects on my body and mind. I'm lean around 11 - 12 percent body fat but my lifts are now starting to suffer and my body is starting to fight the weight loss meaning I have to add cardio and drop additional calories in order to continue to get down to 10 which was my original goal before going back into a bulk.

4 months is a long time to spend in calorie deficit - when you think about it, you have given your body less than it needs to maintain itself for over 16 weeks - that is a long time. Generally bodybuilders and physique competitors would spend a max of 10-14 weeks cutting. I would definitely recommend taking a break for at least 4-6 weeks, just to give your body a period of having the calories it needs for maintenance for a while and so you don't start losing muscle mass. You have 2 sensible options really:
1) Go into a lean bulking phase now (including reverse up to surplus for 3 weeks) and cut again at a later point; or
2) Maintain for a few weeks (including reverse up to maintenance over 2 weeks) and go back to finish the cut after the 4-6 weeks. Even while reversing up to maintenance, you will notice the numbers on the scales going up for the first week or so but after that your weight will stabilise.

Irishcrx wrote: »

To reach it, I need more adjustments in diet and training...all sugar now has to be lost I think ie in coffee etc and no snacking/drink but with Xmas coming in and the way I'm feeling I think I need a break...not quitting I will get to it but a break.

I'm constantly exausted , constantly wanting more food as my body is taking ages to recover from training and literally begging me to feed it lol... I feel like I've no energy left to give... Has been a real eye opener so far and for the most part it's all gone well and I'm loving the lower body fat look but I think I need to eat maintenance for a weeks and recover before getting back on trap to lose the 5-10 pounds I have left in the new year.

Anyone here every felt the same and done similar?

I also found the cut got tough once I started hitting sub 11%. Exactly what you described above - reduced strength when lifting, feeling exhausted during training, and general lack of energy.

A question for you - what supplements have you been taking during the cut? As an absolute minimum, I would suggest a strong Multi-Vitamin and Fish Oils. On top of that, BCAAs and Glutamine are recommended to help avoid losing muscle mass while cutting.

Irishcrx

slicus ricus wrote: »

Irishcrx wrote: »

So I've been into the cutting phase for just over 4 month's now and have lost around 25 pounds down from 172 to 145 ish and am really starting to feel the effects on my body and mind. I'm lean around 11 - 12 percent body fat but my lifts are now starting to suffer and my body is starting to fight the weight loss meaning I have to add cardio and drop additional calories in order to continue to get down to 10 which was my original goal before going back into a bulk.

4 months is a long time to spend in calorie deficit - when you think about it, you have given your body less than it needs to maintain itself for over 16 weeks - that is a long time. Generally bodybuilders and physique competitors would spend a max of 10-14 weeks cutting. I would definitely recommend taking a break for at least 4-6 weeks, just to give your body a period of having the calories it needs for maintenance for a while and so you don't start losing muscle mass. You have 2 sensible options really:
1) Go into a lean bulking phase now (including reverse up to surplus for 3 weeks) and cut again at a later point; or
2) Maintain for a few weeks (including reverse up to maintenance over 2 weeks) and go back to finish the cut after the 4-6 weeks. Even while reversing up to maintenance, you will notice the numbers on the scales going up for the first week or so but after that your weight will stabilise.

Irishcrx wrote: »

To reach it, I need more adjustments in diet and training...all sugar now has to be lost I think ie in coffee etc and no snacking/drink but with Xmas coming in and the way I'm feeling I think I need a break...not quitting I will get to it but a break.

I'm constantly exausted , constantly wanting more food as my body is taking ages to recover from training and literally begging me to feed it lol... I feel like I've no energy left to give... Has been a real eye opener so far and for the most part it's all gone well and I'm loving the lower body fat look but I think I need to eat maintenance for a weeks and recover before getting back on trap to lose the 5-10 pounds I have left in the new year.

Anyone here every felt the same and done similar?

I also found the cut got tough once I started hitting sub 11%. Exactly what you described above - reduced strength when lifting, feeling exhausted during training, and general lack of energy.

A question for you - what supplements have you been taking during the cut? As an absolute minimum, I would suggest a strong Multi-Vitamin and Fish Oils. On top of that, BCAAs and Glutamine are recommended to help avoid losing muscle mass while cutting.

Supplements have been decent throughout , I've been taking multi vitamins , Omega 3, Argintine and creatine throughout..I think just like you said I've just gone a little longer than I should have and need some recovery , it certainly does become much harder once you get to 11 - 12%, I always thought people overestimated that difficulty and I could push through but it really is difficult..

Transform

Just trying to understand, are you make or female?
Current height and weight?
Supplements will not matter a jot until you sort out calorie intake, training volume, sleep etc maybe 2% of a difference

Irishcrx

Transform wrote: »

Just trying to understand, are you make or female?
Current height and weight?
Supplements will not matter a jot until you sort out calorie intake, training volume, sleep etc maybe 2% of a difference

What? I know exactly what my calorie intake , diet , training volume and sleep patterns are. I'm not new to training, just tired after a long cutting period...

Smoked Tuna

Irishcrx wrote: »

What? I know exactly what my calorie intake , diet , training volume and sleep patterns are. I'm not new to training, just tired after a long cutting period...

Transform was trying to be helpful..I think the more information you provide the better answer you can get back from the community

Transform

Irishcrx wrote: »

What? I know exactly what my calorie intake , diet , training volume and sleep patterns are. I'm not new to training, just tired after a long cutting period...

Easy tiger just trying to understand where you're at and gender, height and weight helps in that process, all the best

Irishcrx

Apologies Transform , I didn't mean to come accross like that, always appreciate the lads advice on the forum...maybe the lack of food was making me cranky!
I'm 29 male , 5'8 and 145 pounds, original starting weight was 145 pounds around 18 months ago and I bulked up to 172/173 and then came back down to a vastly differant looking 145 but am stuck around 11-12% BF and struggling to continue after a long cut so was looking to hop back into maintenance or lean bulk for a few weeks to recover before finishing.
I was cutting at 1650 calories a day as of last week , started the cut at 2100 and worked downwards throughout to lose around 1.5 pounds a week , training 4 days a week and cardio (Football) 2-3 days a week. For maintenance I think I'd be around 2400/2500 a day and lean bulk 2650/2750

slicus ricus

Transform wrote: »

Just trying to understand, are you make or female?
Current height and weight?
Supplements will not matter a jot until you sort out calorie intake, training volume, sleep etc maybe 2% of a difference

The supplements I recommended above were aimed at avoiding illness (Multi-Vitamins and Fish Oils) and minimising muscle loss (BCAA and Glutamine), both common pitfalls that can arise from being in calorie deficit. Other than contributing to serving those 2 functions, I would agree that supplements will make very little difference to success of the actual cut.

Irishcrx wrote:

I was cutting at 1650 calories a day as of last week , started the cut at 2100 and worked downwards throughout to lose around 1.5 pounds a week , training 4 days a week and cardio (Football) 2-3 days a week. For maintenance I think I'd be around 2400/2500 a day and lean bulk 2650/2750

If you are playing football 2-3 days a week and lifting weights 4 days a week at 29 with a lean body weight of 129 lbs (145x0.89 - assuming bw of 145lbs at 11%), I would work out your maintenance to be about 2,700-2,750 calories.

popsy09

How are you going now op ?? I'm pretty much in same position now I was 28 % bf last April I cut right down to 13.5 % for my wedding i took a break for a month went up to 15.5 % and now I want to get to 10% so I can try a lean bulk

I was never ever in this shape in my life before so I'm enjoying it but finding it tough like yourself

I seem to have good energy levels so far i am about 2 weeks into the cut now but sometimes I say to myself why are you even doing this ??

Interested to see how you are going

Irishcrx

Much much better, I took a two week break over xmas and eat in and around maintenance . Weight went up a slight bit but mostly water weight I think...energy levels increased football went back to normal.

Feeling refreshed now and ready to relented the cut and meet the 10 percent target...people often ask me why I do it it's simple I like the challenge and the routine suits me on terms of being organised and having something to stay organaised for and something to focus on other than work and family.

But I definitely needed that test before xmas it did me the world of good can't wait to hit the gym again this week.

Smoked Tuna

Irishcrx wrote: »

Much much better, I took a two week break over xmas and eat in and around maintenance . Weight went up a slight bit but mostly water weight I think...energy levels increased football went back to normal.

Feeling refreshed now and ready to relented the cut and meet the 10 percent target...people often ask me why I do it it's simple I like the challenge and the routine suits me on terms of being organised and having something to stay organaised for and something to focus on other than work and family.

But I definitely needed that test before xmas it did me the world of good can't wait to hit the gym again this week.

How are you testing your body fat %?

TimeToShine

Transform wrote: »

every so often, no a set time line.



Finally, the addiction to how lean someone has become can also be a problem as they build up anxiety around making any changes for fear their leaness will be taken away. They've overly identifid with the fruits of their action not the benefits of being healthy and fit. They've wrapped up their self worth in the praise they get from others or stolen looks they get from guys/girls in the gym.

Take a step back and write down the benefits of training that are NOT aesthetic related or the alternative can be what im seeing all the time which is burnt out, chronically fatigued people that may look fit but never feel fit.

Very nice deductions

Smoked Tuna

Transform wrote: »

every so often, no a set time line.

Its like im now working with guys that are becoming what women have been like for years - when asked how long have you been trying to lose weight, answer "all the time".

6-8 week cycle in deficit, 2-4 weeks in maintenance, rinse, repeat.

However, the goal is to NOT have to constantly focus on your nutrition so if what you're doing is not sustainable over the long term then you've got to make some adjustments.

I very often see what youve described in people that have used a low carb approach to weight loss but then dont dial the carbs back up to about 40% of intake as they have leaned out because the attribute the loss to lower carbs not lower calorie intake.

Finally, the addiction to how lean someone has become can also be a problem as they build up anxiety around making any changes for fear their leaness will be taken away. They've overly identifid with the fruits of their action not the benefits of being healthy and fit. They've wrapped up their self worth in the praise they get from others or stolen looks they get from guys/girls in the gym.

Take a step back and write down the benefits of training that are NOT aesthetic related or the alternative can be what im seeing all the time which is burnt out, chronically fatigued people that may look fit but never feel fit.

From what I can gather from my research, for men:

• 4 - 6% - bodybuilding, crazy almost dangerously lean
• 6 - 8% - Elite athlete or model, very difficult to maintain this level
• 8 - 10% - Shredded look, requires discipline to maintain
• 10% - Where most will feel lean, attainable by all, where the six pack becomes visible
• 10 - 15% - Moderately Lean and maintainable with discipline
• 15 - 20% - Healthy but carrying quite a bit of fat
• 20% and above - Unhealthy levels of fat

So, its not unreasonable to say cutting to 10% is a good target for all men to shoot for before bulking?

Mellor

Smoked Tuna wrote: »

So, its not unreasonable to say cutting to 10% is a good target for all men to shoot for before bulking?

Depends on their goals.
If they just want to be leaner, then sure chase that 10% above all else. But if the goal is performance, then its probably counterproductive trying to cut from 12% to 10% when they could be just getting stronger.

Even though being 10% at a given weight means carrying more muscle compared to 12%. Elite strength athletes generally perform better around 12%.

Zillah

Smoked Tuna wrote: »

• 4 - 6% - bodybuilding, crazy almost dangerously lean
• 6 - 8% - Elite athlete or model, very difficult to maintain this level
• 8 - 10% - Shredded look, requires discipline to maintain
• 10% - Where most will feel lean, attainable by all, where the six pack becomes visible
• 10 - 15% - Moderately Lean and maintainable with discipline
• 15 - 20% - Healthy but carrying quite a bit of fat
• 20% and above - Unhealthy levels of fat

This is mostly arbitrary. I saw a post recently that compared photos of people with their medically verified body fat percentages and it turns out your guess could be off by +/-8% no problem. Guys with 10% bodyfat and no stomach definition; guys with 15% bodyfat and visible abs - it's as good a metric as any but the mirror is ultimately the only one worth your while. Bodies are far too variable for a single metric to tell you much about the overall appearance.

Transform

Smoked Tuna wrote: »

From what I can gather from my research, for men:

• 4 - 6% - bodybuilding, crazy almost dangerously lean
• 6 - 8% - Elite athlete or model, very difficult to maintain this level
• 8 - 10% - Shredded look, requires discipline to maintain
• 10% - Where most will feel lean, attainable by all, where the six pack becomes visible
• 10 - 15% - Moderately Lean and maintainable with discipline
• 15 - 20% - Healthy but carrying quite a bit of fat
• 20% and above - Unhealthy levels of fat

So, its not unreasonable to say cutting to 10% is a good target for all men to shoot for before bulking?

i dont use body fat % when testing clients, i care about the individual numbers AND gym performance

Mellor

Zillah wrote: »

I saw a post recently that compared photos of people with their medically verified body fat percentages

How where the body fat percentages medically verified?
Did they dissect a huge of people?

Zillah

Mellor wrote: »

How where the body fat percentages medically verified?
Did they dissect a huge of people?

DEXA scan I think.

Mellor

Zillah wrote: »

DEXA scan I think.

I don't think Dexa scans are as accurate as we are led to believe.
Different machines can give different values based on calibration. I've seen this personally, different results on different machines.
Plus, Dexa scans assume an average hydration, which may not be the case. I'd assume that might interfere with results.

Smoked Tuna

Mellor wrote: »

I don't think Dexa scans are as accurate as we are led to believe.
Different machines can give different values based on calibration. I've seen this personally, different results on different machines.
Plus, Dexa scans assume an average hydration, which may not be the case. I'd assume that might interfere with results.

How inaccurate in terms of absolute or relative percentages?

Mellor

Smoked Tuna wrote: »

How inaccurate in terms of absolute or relative percentages?

Hydration has to affect it, as it affects your mass directly. I really wouldn't be able to put any sort of concrete accuracy on it. As an example, I've had a few dexa scans. On one machine I was 13%. On another I was 17.5%. There was a little bit of time between them. But I looked/felt about equally lean both times. I mentioned it to the operator, who said that different models of machine can be calibrated different.

It's not even a static property. As your weight fluctuates over the week. So does your bf%. A 3kg swing in bodyweight might be 0.5-0.7% variation in BF%. (actually BF%, not results).

Smoked Tuna

Mellor wrote: »

Hydration has to affect it, as it affects your mass directly. I really wouldn't be able to put any sort of concrete accuracy on it. As an example, I've had a few dexa scans. On one machine I was 13%. On another I was 17.5%. There was a little bit of time between them. But I looked/felt about equally lean both times. I mentioned it to the operator, who said that different models of machine can be calibrated different.

It's not even a static property. As your weight fluctuates over the week. So does your bf%. A 3kg swing in bodyweight might be 0.5-0.7% variation in BF%. (actually BF%, not results).

You can just pinch or a grab a hold of your own body fat anyway or look in the mirror.

but it would be nice to have a scientific way of doing it too.

I was reading about a four compartmentalised model which is most accurate. Requires four different tests however

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23364008