Roommate 'ordered' me to move out

GlobalSun

All,

About 6 months ago, I moved into an apartment with 3 other people. The landlord registered me as tenant, but only 1 person is on the lease.

Before I moved in, I was not made aware that two of those people were actually a couple living in the same room. One of them is the primary lessee. It was not until I moved in that I saw they shared the same room and were a couple (loud music on weekends, loud talking at night, hairdryer at midnight ...).

After a few months, things started going south.

The fourth tenant once suggested we'd rotate for the cleaning because the trash piling up and no one bothered to throw it away (I found myself throwing it away many times in a row). We also had an incident where the fourth tenant took my dirty clothes by mistake and kept them for almost a week.

Further to these two issues, I sent an email specifically stating that 'as XYZ suggested' we shall rotate for the cleaning and the laundry. For the laundry, I didn't suggest a rotation, I asked to get Saturday and is all.

Everything was fine, I was doing my share of the cleaning and the couple would not care about cleaning. I one time had to tell them it's their turn to clean, for them to do it.

Again, this week, the guy on the lease was in charge of the cleaning and he went away for the weekend leaving the trash piled up as it was on Monday!

My room being considerably bigger than theirs is really cold because the window doesn't close properly. Hence, I asked to be able to turn the heat on (which I shouldn't ask for to be honest, I'm a tenant and can use it). They made a fuss about it and let me turn it on an hour a day when I told them I'd be a share proportionate to my consumption.

Then, when I saw they were also using it at times I wasn't home, I assumed they were taking advantage of the fact I said I'd pay extra. I addressed the issue in an email, then I got a reply asking me to move out because they are tired of abiding by my 'demands'.

I was told I breached their trust regarding the heating because the 'unspoken' agreeement is they don't turn it on (I was never told about this before I moved in otherwise I would have thought twice about it).

Then in that same nasty email, I was told I never cleaned and they had to pick up my unwashed dishes (which is a blatant lie since, the only dish I can leave is a coffee cup that I was afterwards. I've never left piles of dishes simply because I never eat at home! I can't cook.). I found myself cleaning every other week and throwing the trash almost every week. Yet, I'm being told I'm the dirty one. Is this a joke?

They said I was bossing them around. How? By suggesting ideas? I sent two emails and they said it bothered them to the point where they want me out. This is ridiculous.

The guy who asked me to move out is the only one on the lease (of course, he asked me to move out after I asked to be on the lease). I'm not sure his girlfriend is even listed as a tenant. The other guy and I are also listed as tenants in the landlord's records.

Being at tenant at will, I believe he does not have the right to evict me unless I fail to pay the rent, damage the property or endanger my co-tenants, in which case, the landlord is the one to serve me notice of eviction.

To be fair, moving out is going to cause me serious financial ramifications as I've yet to find a place at a reasonable commute distance to work.

Is he even legally entitled to evict me? What are my remedies?

Thanks!

BabySlam

You should leave because you dont suit them and they dont suit you. Leave asap. It does not matter being "right" if your home is uncomfortable and it will be if you persist.

GreenFolder2

It sounds like you may be a licencee rather than a tenant. Sadly, in Ireland that means you've almost no rights at all.

If you are all actually on the lease, that's a much better situation.

It doesn't sound like you'll make any progress though as they sound extremely messy. That's going to continuously cause conflict.

GlobalSun

I'm going to leave eventually. I started looking for places way before he sent me this email of his. I've been looking for about a month now, just haven't found anything suitable. Renting in Dublin can be a nightmare.

GlobalSun

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

It sounds like you may be a licencee rather than a tenant. Sadly, in Ireland that means you've almost no rights at all.

If you are all actually on the lease, that's a much better situation.

It doesn't sound like you'll make any progress though as they sound extremely messy. That's going to continuously cause conflict.

He's not a licensee. He's a lessee. I checked the tenancy agreement.

beertons

Move. For your sanity.

GreenFolder2

You might just have to bite your tongue and grin and bear it temporarily.

It's not a very pleasant situation but I would back off and avoid sending further emails until you secure alternative accommodation.

It's difficult to share space without some kind of rules that keep things working.

Also your window shouldn't be broken and it is totally unreasonable to just have no heating. While the weather at present is very mild, it may not be in a few weeks.

GlobalSun

I have not replied to his email, because I know any response my cause the issues to escalate further. I'll talk to him in person when he gets back.

He should have spoken to me first before sending on this email with every tenant in copy. It's a personal matter and inappropriate. The fourth tenant should not have been in copy of this email where he asks me to move out.

I'll leave it as is now. I've spoken to the girlfriend who seemed like she understood to a degree. To be fair, I just wanted to appease the tension.

As for the 'rules', those were not rules. Merely suggestions which the fourth tenant put on the table. Now, I'm being regarded as the 'bad person' for just sharing an idea suggested by someone else. They should have just told me: 'We don't function like this usually, so no'. I didn't want rules either until the other guy suggested it. What was I thinking? It was his idea after all.

My window isn't exactly broken. It's a long two-doors window opening to a ground-floor balcony. Hence, it closes but there is a severe issue with the air at the bottom/on the sides not being blocked. I can feel the air when I get close to the window which is not normal. They're aware of it and when I discussed it with the girlfriend yesterday, she told me they know and are looking to get it fixed. Then if they know, they should know why I need the heating. This is not an unreasonable request. If I'm in my room and I'm shaking because it is freezing cold, we have a problem. They don't realize that their rooms might be hot, but mine is unbearable. It's quite selfish of them, especially as I was not made aware of the issue before moving in and I specifically addressed the bill situation.

GlobalSun

GlobalSun wrote: »

He's not a licensee. He's a lessee. I checked the tenancy agreement.

He means you may be a licensee. Do you pay your rent directly to the LL or to the person with the lease in their name?

GlobalSun

Nicolas Important Grave wrote: »

He means you may be a licensee. Do you pay your rent directly to the LL or to the person with the lease in their name?

Apologies, I didn't read the post properly.

No, I had direct contact with the landlord who confirmed I was a tenant when I moved in. My rent was paid directly to the landlord each month.

Now, if I were paying my rent to the lessee, it'd be a different story. I'd see no problem in his measures since I'd have no contact with the landlord.

The issue is since the landlord confirmed I am a tenant and my rent goes directly to him, this other tenant (though on the lease) is not allowed to evict me. Only the landlord can do so based on reasonable grounds.

doc11

Meh, People don't like being told what to do. Emailing flatmates! do you not see them during the day? To be honest having someone email me demands about cleaning and heating would annoy me too. Wonder what the fourth person thinks

GlobalSun

doc11 wrote: »

Meh, People don't like being told what to do. Emailing flatmates! do you not see them during the day? To be honest having someone email me demands about cleaning and heating would annoy me too. Wonder what the fourth person thinks

I get home late at night around 9 pm and leave at 6.30. When I get home, they're sometimes not here or I don't have time/energy to talk. On weekends, they're usually all gone. It's rare we get to be in the apartment all four of us at the same time. It's never happened, actually.

You know, it's not hard to knock at my door and say 'Please don't send emails, it's counterproductive'. It takes two seconds and would prevent issues. The problem is I never got any response whether via email or in person. They blatantly ignored me. When they decided to talk about the cleaning, they did it all three and did not put me in the loop (I overheard them in the kitchen on my way out). Yet, we stopped rotating this week and nobody threw the trash away. It's piling up from Monday last week. The trash is about to drop from the bins. How exactly are these people organized?

There's a reason guy 4 suggested we rotate.

I was not telling them what to do. I suggested as per the fourth guy's suggestion! They were free to decline. They have free will too.

By the way, what demands? I asked to turn on the heating and pay the extra-fee. How is this a demand? Am I not allowed to use the premises? Am I supposed to stay in my room in the cold because I have to ask their permission to live? I don't see in what way I am making demands to utlize facilities in my own place. I'm actually paying more rent than they do. In every house share I've done (and I've done many), no one ever told me: You have to ask to turn on the heat (even during my college years).

I'm sorry bit it's also not nice of them either to tell me: 'You have to ask us to turn on the heat'. They're not my parents. They should have discussed this matter with me from the get go instead of calling it a breach of trust when I had no clue their policy was 'no heating allowed'. I would have moved out asap even though I say I'd definitely pay my share.

Besides, turning on the heat one hour a day is really a reasonable request. He said I lied to him by manually changing the timer he set behind his back. I haven't even touched the timer since I don't even know how it works. He's the one who set it. Besides, he's not my parent telling me 'you can only turn on the heat at allowed times'. What the hell is this? We're all grown adults making a living and this is beyond low.

doc11

People want to live with someone laid back, not someone fussing about laundry, windows,heating, cleaning, noise, communicate through emails and come out with the auld I pay more rent then you. Do you blame them for showing you the door?seems you only make an effort to communicate to your flatmates when you have a complaint and that's through email?

GlobalSun

doc11 wrote: »

People want to live with someone laid back, not someone fussing about laundry, windows,heating, cleaning, noise, communicate through emails and come out with the auld I pay more rent then you. Do you blame them for showing you the door?seems you only make an effort to communicate to your flatmates when you have a complaint and that's through email?

I never complained.

1. The laundry, we had an incident and I talked to all of them about it in person first before reiterating in the email. They were fine with it before I even sent the email. The laundry, I didn't request a schedule. I just said. 'to avoid another incident, FYI I'm going to do mine on Saturdays if that's okay with you'. I asked all of them IN PERSON if that was okay before I sent on the email.

2. The cleaning? The idea was suggested by another flatmate who suggested it in person, again.

As much as I agree on living with someone laid back, the cleaning idea wouldn't have been suggested by the other guy if the place was clean in the first place.

3. The heating? It's my right to avail of the facilities in the apartment. There's a difference between agreeing to a maximum per day/week. That's another thing to say 'no heating allowed'. My room is seriously cold and I don't see where the problem is if I pay my proportionate share.

The only thing that was not discussed in person with the 'couple' was the cleaning. It was only a mere idea we had with guy 4.


I've lived with many many roommates before and I've never had a single problem! Never have I set rules ever and I had some pretty disorganized roommates before! The schedules I suggested because the other guy did. It wouldn't crossed my mind normally, as I assume we're all adults who can handle themselves. I've never been the one to set rules and I never will be because I've been on the other end of the spectrum once, and believe me, it was a terrible experience.

As I said, I only sent two emails in the course 6 months. There's nothing unreasonable here, especially considering most communications on their ends (bills, so on and so forth) were done via email. They never approached me further to my 1st email. It's not hard to say 'no'.

They're unreasonable.

SteM

Wait, you either are all there to talk or you're not all there. You say it's never happened but then you contradict yourself in the same post.

Sounds like you're to odd man out here. I'd move whether I was asked to leave or not tbh.

GlobalSun

As I said, there's never the opportunity for the four of us together at the same time!

The only time I spoke to them was when I was able to catch them individually over the couse of different weeks (not even days).

That one time I 'caught' the two guys together, I was on my way out as I said. I said Hi, they didn't even reply. I didn't have time to discuss these matters.

I was already looking for another place before his notice. The problem/ point of my thread is whether or not he's legally entitled to serve me such notice.


Truthfully, I'm not seeking an anwser to know who is right or wrong. It's not going to get me anywhere and is highly irrelevant at this stage.

SteM

GlobalSun wrote: »

As I said, there's never the opportunity for the four of us together at the same time!

The only time I spoke to them was when I was able to catch them individually, which rarely happens since I don't get to run into them.

But they were in the kitchen and then you passing by. Walk into the kitchen and then the 4 of you would be in the same place at the same time. The opportunity was there for you to make it happen and I'm sure you had similar opportunities over time but it sounds like you were happy not to talk to them face to face.

GlobalSun

SteM wrote: »

But they were in the kitchen and then you passing by. Walk into the kitchen and then the 4 of you would be in the same place at the same time. The opportunity was there for you to make it happen and I'm sure you had similar opportunities over time but it sounds like you were happy not to talk to them face to face.

As I said, I had a doctor's appointment, was already late. I wasn't in a position to miss my appointment to talk about dishes.

As a matter of fact, I clearly stated in my post there was only the two guys that day. The fourth tenant, the 'girlfriend' was not there.

And no, we never had the opportunity to be the fourth of us together, this is very matter was actually discussed with the girlfriend just yesterday after her boyfriend sent me his email.

This is irrelevant at this stage. Are you guys purposely ignoring the actual question in this thread?

We've been discussing the same matter to various lengths using a different lense. The end result is the same.

Estrellita

Perhaps the landlord is aware you have moved in, but it's otherwise not his or her issue to resolve any disputes between you. The guy being the main lease-holder has sub-let you the room by the sounds of it.

The lease holder is the one that deals with the comings and goings of the apartment (sub-letting wise). If there are any damages done or late payment of rent, the book stops with him.

It sounds like the others have a more lax attitude to house work than you do, that would drive me potty too. But it's often the way of life as a room renter, and there is little that can be done without full responsibility from everyone.

Personally, I wouldn't bother doing much more discussing with them on the matter, and start fresh elsewhere. Try to see that not everyone sees things they way you do, it's often personality clashes that mean an uncomfortable existence amongst tennant's.

When you are being interviewed for your next room, make sure you have a good nose around the communal areas. Of course the place may have had a quick clean up before you arrived, but look for other signs. Grottiness, bad smells being masked etc. You are probably going to have to find somewhere with the interviewer as concerned about cleaning habits as much as you are.

If you ever find yourself in a place that is letting in cold air like that again, I'd buy some insulation (draft-excluding) tape to close the gap between the window and frame.

pilly

GlobalSun wrote: »

As I said, there's never the opportunity for the four of us together at the same time!

The only time I spoke to them was when I was able to catch them individually over the couse of different weeks (not even days).

That one time I 'caught' the two guys together, I was on my way out as I said. I said Hi, they didn't even reply. I didn't have time to discuss these matters.

I was already looking for another place before his notice. The problem/ point of my thread is whether or not he's legally entitled to serve me such notice.


Truthfully, I'm not seeking an anwser to know who is right or wrong. It's not going to get me anywhere and is highly irrelevant at this stage.

And I think it's being stated numerous times on boards that it's not a place for legal advice so you're in the wrong place.

If you really want a simple answer, if this guys holds the lease and they're all pissed off with you then yes he probably can ask you to leave. You haven't actually stated if you have a lease or not yourself? If you don't then you have no legal standing as such.

But try to look at your attitude if you can before moving in anywhere else. Emailing people you live with is not good practice, it tends to piss people off a lot easier than the spoken word. Even the typing in capitals and attitude above is pissing people off here so just maybe think how the written word can annoy sometimes.

GlobalSun

pilly wrote: »

And I think it's being stated numerous times on boards that it's not a place for legal advice so you're in the wrong place.

If you really want a simple answer, if this guys holds the lease and they're all pissed off with you then yes he probably can ask you to leave. You haven't actually stated if you have a lease or not yourself? If you don't then you have no legal standing as such.

But try to look at your attitude if you can before moving in anywhere else. Emailing people you live with is not good practice, it tends to piss people off a lot easier than the spoken word. Even the typing in capitals and attitude above is pissing people off here so just maybe think how the written word can annoy sometimes.

I never typed in capitals in my communications with them.

Furthermore, I discussed both the laundry and the heating with all of them one by one in person before addressing an email.

The cleaning was only discussed with one person.

I moved in 6 months ago. I only sent two emails in the course of 6 months. Do you really believe it is unreasonable? I don't think so.

If someone has an issue with communicating, it is certainly them whether in person or via email.

The only reason why I sent emails around is whenever they had communications whether regarding bills or practical matters (ie: meter reading and such), they always communicated via email. There was never a communication in person. Even when they paid the TV license, it was supposed to be discussed by us all and they wound up sending an email instead.

Hence, I assumed emailing was fine. Really, two emails in 6 months about matters we had discussed in person prior, is really not good grounds for eviction. I pay half the rent on my own, and they treat me with no respect whatsoever. I have not damaged any property and if I compare my room to theirs, we shall wonder who the filfthy one is.

My emails were always respectful and even apologized in both of them for sounding 'rude' or 'bossy' and clearly stated it was not my intention in my very first email. Yet, the guy on the lease (the sole guy on the lease, the other two are not on the lease), replied by telling me I am dirty and fabricating lies about my way of living.

The trash was never thrown by none of them, I found myself doing it weekly. Then, they would leave dishes in the sink. I don't cook, so I don't have any dishes but a cup of coffee. Yet, I was told I left the dirty dishes in the sink. How? I never cook.

I may understand their lifestyle does not suit mine and to be fair, the slamming doors in the middle of the night and the hairdryer at 1am is not something I appreciate. Neither do I appreciate paying a TV license and not being able to watch TV because the same two people are watching it every day from 6 pm until 11pm without any consideration for other people who may wish to utilize it too.

Those fabricated lies about me never cleaning, when when I initially moved in, I was the one doing all the cleaning every week until the guy suggested the rotation. Please.

He has no right to evict me since I am registered as a tenant. My rent going directly to the landlord's account. The only person who is allowed to evict me is the landlord. As far as I know, all the paper work (ID, references and PPS number went to the landlord not to the lessee).

Besides, his eviction notice is not legally binding. An email with no proper notice period is not deemed an eviction notice in my eyes. Unless it is a posted letter with a proper notice. He knows he cannot do it, since he has no reasonable grounds. Hence, I will be securing accomodation at my own pace. He was being unreasonable when he assumed I'd move out in the middle of the Christmas holidays by saying 'I'll refund part of your rent and your deposit'. How?

Did I mention I paid my deposit to the former tenant who is now gone? This was the lessee's idea. I will get no deposit back since he doesn't have the deposit himself.

I will be moving out, but according to my own schedule. He has no grounds or actual legal right to evict me, so this is just smokescreen to my eyes.

In the meantime, I will keep cleaning as I normally do and act like nothing happened, until I secure accommodation. These people do not scare me as they would not be in the apartment if there wasn't another person paying half the rent on their own. Yet, they can't afford 35E for heating.

the_syco

GlobalSun wrote: »

My window isn't exactly broken. It's a long two-doors window opening to a ground-floor balcony. Hence, it closes but there is a severe issue with the air at the bottom/on the sides not being blocked. I can feel the air when I get close to the window which is not normal.

Get something like this; http://amzn.eu/8iHk0Mu

Available in most hardware stores. It'll help prevent the cold air getting in. Not ideal, but it'll assist in keeping your room snug until you leave.

the_syco

GlobalSun wrote: »

He has no grounds or actual legal right to evict me, so this is just smokescreen to my eyes.

If you're a licensee, they can evict you with 24 hours notice.

Teyla Emmagan

I think you may need to look at your communication style OP. It seems to rub people up the wrong way.

Good luck with your accommodation hunt. In the meantime that draught excluding tape is available in every hardware store and costs next to nothing.

Lumen

Regarding cleaning and general chores, shared accommodation only works if everyone feels that they do more than their fair share.

This is because we all subjectively overestimate our contribution. We tend to remember the times we overcontributed but forget where we undercontributed.

4ensic15

the_syco wrote: »

If you're a licensee, they can evict you with 24 hours notice.

Where did you get the 24 hours notice from?

4ensic15

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I think you may need to look at your communication style OP. It seems to rub people up the wrong way.

Good luck with your accommodation hunt. In the meantime that draught excluding tape is available in every hardware store and costs next to nothing.

I feel sorry for the flatmates.

GlobalSun

the_syco wrote: »

If you're a licensee, they can evict you with 24 hours notice.

I'm not a licensee.

GlobalSun

Lumen wrote: »

Regarding cleaning and general chores, shared accommodation only works if everyone feels that they do more than their fair share.

This is because we all subjectively overestimate our contribution. We tend to remember the times we overcontributed but forget where we undercontributed.

I don't overestimate. The gourth fuy did the cleaning rotatively and I never complained about him or his habits once.

The real problem comes from the couple who assume the property is theirs.
If I see there's only him and I doing the cleaning, this is strange.

Rubberchikken

tbh they don't sound like great flatmates at all.
i don't think people need 'laid back' types sharing with them. these people are, imho, too laid back, if they're willing to leave rubbish pile up, not do their fair share etc.

unless they have a complete change of character, which i doubt possible, i'd say better for you if you just do your thing for the time being, ignore these people and set about finding somewhere else to live. life is way too short to deal with this type.

give serious thought to who you share with next. avoid couples, i hear they are not the best to share with, and get as much as possible in writing/organised before signing the dotted line.

best of luck

JustAThought

OP it must be awful to be told to move out of your own rental & I'm sorry that happened. Of course just because someone said or emailed ghis to you dosn't mean you have to take any notice of it. Of course you don't have to & if you are only there outside of 06:30 -9pm I'm not sure I'd be bothered moving at all in any kind of hurry particularly if the place suites you.

But do you really want to live with such people who would write or say such a thing to you and who have so little empathy? And it sounds like the values when it comes to sharing regarding heat are totally out of kilter? Things can often get out of hand and things can seem more important than they are, but maybe you have more disposable income than them & maybe different backgounds & expectations of normal & organised when it comes to clenliness & standard of living expectations?

Tbh I'd be quietly looking - this can only be a nightmare to live in. You could try planning a day to catch them informally when they are all there & talk & but it sounds a bit as though your outlooks are too different & maybe not compatible. Or it could be that you might all agree that things were said or implied that were hurtful & with work & pressures thjngs got out of hand & lets agree to move forward with the flowing in place....

Best of luck & maybe stop the emails - I don't know you or them but I would totally hate that & it would get my back up instantly even if you were 100% in the right!!! Something about school & being told what to do & all those connotations!

Everyone needs to feel relaxed, comfortable & at home in their home - hopefully you can all come together to find a way to let that happen & live your seperate lives in peace & comfort together.

Good Luck & try not to be too upset - hurtful things once said or read can resonate in someones mind far longer and cut far deeper than the original person ever intended.