You'll enjoy this one guys LOL

g00167015

Grizzly will like this one, perhaps lol

A VERY interesting thing that was entered into evidence wednesday last in a court of law by Superintendant T. H.

His instructions from the commissioner are to use the "broadest possible definition" of like for like in a substitution. Ie a shotgun for a shotgun or any long rifled "weapon" for any long rifled "weapon"

The term "broadest possible definition" was also re-iterated by Insp J Cummings, chief ballistics officer..

Needless to say, I'm going to ring my RFD and ask him to import a 338 lapua mag for me........I'd really like to do a straight swap for my BSA superten airgun!



What a load of poppycock LOL!! This would be an idiotic instruction to give as it would be FAR too open for abuse by people who might not have the friendliest motives.

Feck sake a guy in Donegal wasn't allowed to sub from a swift DOWN to a 223 because the number 223 is bigger than the number 220!!

....no doubt tried to object in court when it was pointed out the nominal bore size is the same and that there is a teency weency difference in muzzle energy of a few hundred footpounds for f sake!.

"Sure the commissioners guidelines told me that they made centrefire rifle barrels in 0.220 inch nominal bore diameter......" ---emmmmmmmmmmn no, sorry horsh!


I wouldn't believe this either only for I was in the room at the time listening to the two gentlemen speaking in the dock.

Oh lordy :-D

gunny123

Is this case you mention, still on going ?

g00167015

No

Finished in my favour with very strong criticism by the Judge for the Sup't acting "with no statutory basis whatsoever" in the manner of his refusal of my 204 application.

Bad_alibi

Can you enlighten us on the grounds for the refusal.

g00167015

No valid grounds were given in the one-sentence refusal.

It mentioned that I refused the "offer" of a substitution. (for what, my air rifle??........perhaps for my little rimfire??) .......after all, I did not APPLY for a substitution!

Having made the (very VERY detailed) application for fox control plus med/long distance small vermin, the refusal letter stated the standard cut-and-paste nonsense from the AGS instruction manual of "failed to demonstrate a valid reason for the firearm applied for"

As well as my own stock & poultry, I also included written permissions for several hundred acres over which I also assist with vermin control obligations. This was just a handful of landowners and there are many more on my list of permissions.

The refusal was given over 10 months after the application was submitted.

It was 6 1/2 months before anything at all was done with the application, a young garda getting reports from referees as seen through a discovery order on my behalf.


The respondant refused to attend court on three occasions, April, May & Sept. The fourth was therefore held peremtorily against the State.

The proceedings that followed were of great embarrassment to the Sup't and also the Counsel representing the state. He was criticised in the strictest possible terms by the Judge in his lengthy and strongly worded judgement. Short of getting down off the bench and yelling expletives at the Sup't et al, he was about as damning as possible while still using polite language and he went through a detailed dissection of any of the bull which had told him when he directly questioned the state's witnesses during the hearing itself.

There was no challenge, no questioning or no objection by the state to any aspect of my application whatsoever on the day and they could not show any basis in law or even in principle to the manner of the refusal. Also, the Sup't was quoting from documents and relying on them in evidence WITHOUT providing the Court with a copy! F_eck sake the Judge isn't a magician lads!

Judge had to wait perhaps an hour or more just to be given a copy of the Commissioner's Guidelines by the State, let alone anything else! Farcical on their behalf.

Honestly I could write pages on this....., but anyways the result was that my certificate is to be granted by order of the court. I will not be slow in making an application for the respondant to be held in contempt if there is any dilly dallying.


A final titbit........ in cross examining myself, the very young and very inexperienced counsel for the state (poor lad looked like he was only drafted in the night before) began what he thought would be his moment in the spotlight by wimpering to the Judge about how "anyone in their right mind could possibly require such a potent and lethal ^weapon^ for ANY type of vermin control........"

- My response was along the lines of "With respect Judge, I would have to fundamentally disagree with the wording of that statement, not least because BY FAR the most commonly licenced firearm, not weapon, for the purposes quoted in my firearm application (namely fox control and medium to longer distance small vermin) is the 223 rem, here in Ireland but also indeed right across the British Isles and Europe

The judge received a nod from the chief ballistics officer down in the audience.

-I continued that a typical 223 might produce perhaps 1300 or 1350 footpounds at the muzzle and it is rightly regarded as being absolutely appropriate for the types of usage I mentioned. A 204 would generally produce in the region of 1100 footpounds at the muzzle. Therefore, you can probably see why I find the wording of the young gentleman's statement/question to be inappropriate at best. My application is for a firearm with perhaps 15% LESS muzzle energy than the most prevelant licenced firearm in that category, indeed there are hundreds upon hundreds of them (223) currently licenced in the State.

Judge received another nod from the aforementioned audience member, the young Counsel's face was becoming very red and he was sweating profusely while getting "the eyes" from the Judge

-I finished by mentioning that clearly it would be incorrect to use those words where the young gentleman questioned how "anyone in their right mind could possibly require such a potent and lethal ^weapon^ for any type of vermin control........" Indeed Judge, amongst the cartridges one could deem appropriate for my application, 204 is one of the LOWEST muzzle energies in that category.

The judge took note of some of the alternatives and their respective muzzle energies. He asked me these directly from the bench and I was only happy to oblige with details of Hornet, 17rem, 223, 204, swift and 22250 etc etc. Basically because I'm a top bloke (obviously LOL) but more importantly I'm not an ignorant dim wit trying to play on the emotions of the judge with Hollywood talk.

The young Counsel, by now looking decidedly flummoxed was only able to ask a couple more mickey mouse questions that were largely irrelevant.

The judge had his own few questions just to tidy up the notes he was taking etc, he even managed a couple of anecdotal tales and what have you. He was very pleasant, forthright and polite and naturally therefore was a pleasure to be able to help with some minor technical queries he had as well as background questions about some other country sports events where I was fortunate enough to have had a bit of success in the past. He thanked me very much for my contribution and commended my knowledge and my helpfullness (well chuffed inside, so I was LOL) as he let me resume my seat.

Like the majority of judges, he applied the law and the facts presented before him and saw through the (fairly limited) attempts by the State for entering bull excriment into evidence. He was commendable also in that he adjourned for a period to make sure he was properly informed in his own mind, to consult relevant statute and case law and to compile his judgement.

I guess he also took this time to consult the documents which the State failed to provide during the hearing itself. D'oh!

The incoherence, confusion and nervousness of the respondant and the young Counsel representing him was notable and somewhat amusing, in hindsight.

Insp Cummings and his collegue Mr Greene were only really asked to contribute by the judge to further his own understanding of things. They made no real input to the case, or distinct lack thereof, being made by the respondant. In fairness to them though, they kinda have to attend once they get asked to travel down by a Sup't in desperation and ignorance......

I chuckled when we were in the foyer having tea in the morning and the two guys from HQ walk in, only to see a familiar face sat next to myself :-)


........Grizzly I imagine you know the feeling I am on about ;-P


The Judge was not in the slightest impressed, criticising the respondent for behaving "with no statutory basis WHATSOEVER" (Direct quote) and also having to check the young Counsel mentioned above for his confrontational demeanure and inappropriate behaviour both towards the other Counsel present and indeed towards the Judge, throwing papers around childishly like a 2 year old......... he was too flummoxed and nervous to try the same antics with me, he seemed to get brave in that regard once I left the stand and excriment was beginning to make contact with the little fan buzzing around inside his head :-D


Glad the farce of my application is over and the 204 will be a great asset to myself in the range of vermin control obligations I can undertake on my own farm and on behalf of the many landowners who kindly give permission for me to assist with their own vermin management.

clawback07

Well done you , Sir !
Fascinating and well explained and congratulations on fighting through the bulls**t . Too stressful for me !

gunny123

The young and inexperienced counsel was probably the only one who was foolish/hungry enough to take the brief, anyone with experience would have known he was on to a loser and wouldn't touch it with the proverbial barge pole.

g00167015

gunny123 wrote: »

The young and inexperienced counsel was probably the only one who was foolish/hungry enough to take the brief, anyone with experience would have known he was on to a loser and wouldn't touch it with the proverbial barge pole.

Thrown in the deep end, poor auld divl from the state solicitors office.

In spite of receiving detailed, truthful and accurate advice from my BL beforehand, he ignored the opportunity for concession and proceeded to make an embarassment of himself and his principal client, in exactly the way which had been pointed out to him at the earlier meeting.

g00167015

clawback07 wrote: »

Well done you , Sir !
Fascinating and well explained and congratulations on fighting through the bulls**t . Too stressful for me !

Go raibh maith agat, a mhac ;-D

Grizzly 45

The Judge was not in the slightest impressed, criticising the respondent for behaving "with no statutory basis WHATSOEVER" (Direct quote) and also having to check the young Counsel mentioned above for his confrontational demeanure and inappropriate behaviour both towards the other Counsel present and indeed towards the Judge, throwing papers around childishly like a 2 year old......... he was too flummoxed and nervous to try the same antics with me, he seemed to get brave in that regard once I left the stand and excriment was beginning to make contact with the little fan buzzing around inside his head :-D

Hmmmm...That sort of behaviour is NOT limited to newbies trying to make a name for themselves it seems,but also to older more mature state solicitors.I remember in a multiple case in Limerick in 14.The state Solr having the same surname as the offical who presides over a court, was losing badly for the state and started getting snottier and snottier with both the witness for the plantiffs and with the liscense applicant,and was being pulled with his attitude by the judge.Finally when the judge was finding for the shooters,an almighthy CRASH!! comes from the state solicitors bench followed by another CRASH! as the SS hurls two weighty ring binder files onto the desk and into his breif case,slams everything shut,grabs his coat and starts storming out of the court without even giving the usual courteous nod to the bench and waiting a few seconds for dismissal from the judge.

Only to be pulled up by the judge..."Mr ...You are leaving us?" "Yes! I have another appointment in Co Limerick!" "Well then we won't detain you any longer,and I will offer on your behalf your apologies to the court and to counsel,witness and plaintiffs for your behaviour....Off you go then!"

The expression "black rage" applied so well to the face of the SS as he walked out of that court room and after being cut to ribbons both in the case and by the judge for his prima donna act was a sight to behold.:D Thought the guy was going to have an anuerism by the time he made the court door.All in all an exellent day,as five lads got their semi liscenses as well.

So it seems that if the State Solrs don't get their way,they engage in throwing their toys from the pram..A tad too many Hollywood court room dramas perhaps??

g00167015

It's entertaining to watch, but not befitting the venue at all.

Most disrespectful to all concerned.

Mind you, it IS entertaining!

g00167015

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

...............Only to be pulled up by the judge..."Mr ...You are leaving us?" "Yes! I have another appointment in Co Limerick!" "Well then we won't detain you any longer,and I will offer on your behalf your apologies to the court and to counsel,witness and plaintiffs for your behaviour....Off you go then!"

That little bit of sarcasm by the Judge reminded me of my case the other day a little......... the Judge asked both lads from HQ up on the stand after the Sup't and his counsel had finished their stuttering and profuse sweating contest........"Well seeing as ye are after coming all the way from Dublin, we are as well to hear SOMETHING from you!" :-D

As mentioned earlier, their only input was really more for the Judge's own knowledge with questions directly from the bench and nothing really to advance any aspect of the State's "case"

Limerick Sovereigns

How much will this day out have cost them(us!!)?

I hope that when they start to see their local budgets (instead of some national slush fund) being eaten up by having to pay the costs for both sides directly that they will become VERY choosy about refusing firearms applications.

At the very least it should result in an early concession when the applicant doesn't roll over and starts talking about the courts.

Grizzly 45

From what I hear..It's coming out of the DOJ's finances,not divisional budgets.:rolleyes: So IOW the Irish taxpayer is footing the bill for these DC shuffle sessions.
Cost ,about ,ball park, 5k per case.

g00167015

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

All in all an exellent day,as five lads got their semi liscenses as well.

So from that day on, you were OFFICIALLY allowed to have a semi :-D

Jesus the inuendo haha, congrats though on getting the nod from a Judge, no less, on this matter :-D

Grizzly 45

I wasn't in that group..I was the following year 2014.[My bad in the previous post of mine I thought it was 2014 when that happened.Auld age creeping up on me:rolleyes:]Both my hand gun and MSR were granted in May and Oct 2014 and the latter was one of the first to be granted with costs,although technically it could have been May 2014 except the judge reserved judgement on costs in that event.
The poor CS had no luck at all.His city state solicitor was hopeless,he got the county state solr who threw a wobbler as in the last post.Then he decided he'd wait until he got a replacement judge,and got the notorious judge Lucey instead:).

Judge Lucey had just ripped DI Brookes to bits in Nov13 in a Dublin DC multiple court case regarding handguns,that had gone to the high court and were back for consideration and refused by the local CS yet again.So he was only too happy to oblige ,after consideration of my evidence of course. He summed it up nicely by saying..In so many words..
"Look! If the state doesn't like the law as it is,it's up to the Dail to go change it! Quit bothering these people,they have proven good reason,multiple times in some cases, and these guns are here ,and we have to live with that fact. We mightn't like it,I'm not particulary fond of them,but as I am a shotgun and game hunting man myself,it's not up to me to decide on another mans sport."

So to save the CS some future bother,I tried paryling with him after the court,as my MSR liscense was up ironically on the same day. That got me two interviews in his office over two hours.It bolied down to the notorious "looks like" BS!Despite losing on this point on five guns the previous year,Dublin sent him down the same BS that a DPMS /Remington R25 looks like an Armalite AR10.The Gen 1 Eugene Stoner 7.62 battle rifle from the 1950s that became the AR 15/M16 CAR/M4 and back to the civillian AR10.308.But because it has AR10 ancestory,it MUST be the same! [Despite it not looking anywhere near the same or having select fire!] So back to court in Oct. 4 handguns and my MSR..
Now he has a very hard ass local judge and he has hauled some Sgt out from someplace who is studying to be a barrister!Most importantly there is a rugby match in Limerick that everyone wants to attend that Friday afternoon.
First case a handgun application that was kind of wobbly more by the applicant rather than evidence.... Granted!! Now to costs..."No none are required under blah,blah,blah,from Sgt barrister... "No says Jr council ."Dc rules changed in Feb 20124 signed into law by Min Shatter." "Any evidence thereof?" Says the judge,to be promptly passed the act... "hmm ,yes indeed...Costs granted!" Bright flash of light,intense heat,and shock wave followed by minature mushroom cloud over on the AGS side of the court.:D

And so it went the whole rest of the morning,after lunch and afternoon,until evening and my case last.All granted and the CS and division budget down about 30 grand after eight hours.With nothing to show:rolleyes:.Apart from another peed off judge who wanted to go see Young Munsters trash the Hell out of someone,and was being held up by this idiocy.... Ask yourselves this;would any of us have a job in the private sector after a disaster like this the next morning??
And the rest as they say is history...
We then had in Nov 14 the all out attack on everything we own in Ireland.The shock& Horror attempt by AGS with the contents of the evidence locker pictures That led to the great probing of AGS and PULSE data...The Dail comitte debate where others here played their parts so well.The rise and fall of the sports colation and to the present day and the limbo we seem to be in yet again.And your case,and now the EU having a crack at it!:rolleyes:

Have to say since I started posting here now on 9 years ago,and looking back on that time I have to say,us Irish gun owners have been thru some Hell of a lot of of ****e in that time!:p

g00167015

Cheers Grizzly

I actually remembered you hadn't been in that first group from somewhere you mentioned it before.

I was more joking that if one of those five guys got a new girlfriend and she was laughing about his you know what, he could reply, well the Judge said I was perfectly ok in having a semi so THERE! :-P

:-D

gunhappy_ie

Excellent to hear you ended with good results.

If you dont mine me asking were costs awarded ? .... Thats where it really hits them. Whatever about having the ability to hide behind "Public safety" as their cover up for their misunderstanding/hatred of friearms, eating into their budget is always a better deterrent.


GH

g00167015

Yes, but I think the DoJ give them a dig-out as opposed to it all coming from divisional budgets.

ðŸ‘