How would you rate the quality of life in Ireland?

Bigus

Deleted User wrote: »

Our quality of living is amongst the best on the planet.

We are healthy and wealthy for the most part.

Any health system has problems.
If you are sick in this country you will generally get appropriate care.

Well I must say I think the irish healthcare system is world class, due to my recent experience.

Irish A+E , had me on a trolley and saved my life within 13 mins of me presenting to them by car. Healthcare system in Ireland is fanatastic if you're really fücked which is really the way it should be.

I think the media in Ireland overplay and over talk everything.

Being on a trolley for 12 or 15 hrs is not necessarily a bad thing if there's a team of people constantly working on you , saving your life, trying different procedures with a team of deducted irish doctors and consultants.

getting to the bed ward is rehab , not first line of defence.

So fûck Eamonn Doran and his weekly trolley stats , because a trolley is where you want to be for action.., mobility and fast response,multiple disciplines on call to help you live , seriously, wards and beds are for recovery not fixes.

snotboogie

Saipanne wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Just for pig iron I put in the minimum wage in Guangdong province, (where the infamous foxconn plant is based) which is 1,895RMB a month or 22,740 RMB a year. This wage would be paid to the most menial of factory workers. This puts the worker in the top 21% of the richest people in the world. I assume you would also turn around to them and tell them "Put in your salary. Be grateful for what you read"

What an incredibly stupid assumption. You could read this thread and see why I wouldn't say that.

But please don't let me stop you from joining the others in complaining about the rain, and how impossible it is to do outdoors activities, ignoring the tens of thousands of us who do this every weekend in this beautiful country.

I never said that

snotboogie

Deedsie wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

We get too smug in these threads comparing ourselves to third world countries. We have a high cost of living (Dublin sits at the top of European rental prices in between London and Paris), poor public services, drastically outdated infrastructure and low wages. That gives most people a lack of disposable income and forces them into long commutes. Our climate isn't great, the no natural disasters is a complete farce as we have had numerous serious floods in the last decade, not a high death toll (was there any?) but how many people die from natural disasters in the western world every year? It's hardly much of a brag. At the end of the day we have a climate that at best makes outdoor activity uncomfortable and at worst impossible for most of the year. Compare that to France where a huge portion of the population can spend 3 months on the beach every year.

That's what you said, it's still nonsense

The rain makes outdoor activity uncomfortable, that's a nonsense?

TimeToShine

I don't think people realize just how big a contributor to the sub-standard quality of life the weather is. Spending 75% of the year cooped up in either your house or the pub, to me at least, really isn't an indicator of a high standard of living. Living somewhere like California or New York would really open your eyes with regards to how badly the weather spoils the fun here.

suicide_circus

Awful. If it's not homelessness it's rape culture. Shame on you all. SHAME.

murpho999

TimeToShine wrote: »

I don't think people realize just how big a contributor to the sub-standard quality of life the weather is. Spending 75% of the year cooped up in either your house or the pub, to me at least, really isn't an indicator of a high standard of living. Living somewhere like California or New York would really open your eyes with regards to how badly the weather spoils the fun here.

This is total rubbish.

I run and cycle all year round and it's hardly ever stopped by weather. We may not get the hot summers of other countries but our weather is no where as bad as people make out.

snotboogie

Deedsie wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

The rain makes outdoor activity uncomfortable, that's a nonsense?

The contention that Irish rain makes outdoor activities more uncomfortable than rain in other countries is just bizarre. Have you statistics on rainfall to back up your argument.

It rains less in Dublin than many other Western European cities.

Dublin, one of the driest parts of Ireland, on average rains 191 days of the year or 52% of the time. Cork, the second city, rains 204 days of the year or 56% of the time. 
http://www.met.ie/climate-ireland/1981-2010/dublin.html


In contrast London,  rains 109 days a year, or 29% of the time. Paris is 115 days of the year or 31% of the time. Amsterdam rains 132 days at 36%. Berlin is 101 days at 27%. Stockholm is 100 also at 27%. Olso is 77 days at 21%. Madrid is 59 at 16%.

I obviously never said Irish rain is more uncomfortable, it just rains a lot more here.

wherearemykeys

The weather can be a pain, but i wouldn't say it affects our quality of life. Its not something we can "fix" anyway. We just have to work around it. If you allow the weather to affect your quality of life then thats a problem.

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

The rain makes outdoor activity uncomfortable, that's a nonsense?

Yeah it is. We don't have round the clock rain all year around. You won't melt in a bit of rain.

murpho999

snotboogie wrote: »

Dublin, one of the driest parts of Ireland, on average rains 191 days of the year or 52% of the time. Cork, the second city, rains 204 days of the year or 56% of the time. 
http://www.met.ie/climate-ireland/1981-2010/dublin.html


In contrast London,  rains 109 days a year, or 29% of the time. Paris is 115 days of the year or 31% of the time. Amsterdam rains 132 days at 36%. Berlin is 101 days at 27%. Stockholm is 100 also at 27%. Olso is 77 days at 21%. Madrid is 59 at 16%.

I obviously never said Irish rain is more uncomfortable, it just rains a lot more here.

Hold on, most of those days are less than 0.2m which is nothing.

It could rain for a few minutes in the middle of the night and be dry the whole day for that stat to happen.

Days where it's just raining all day are quite rare.

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

Dublin, one of the driest parts of Ireland, on average rains 191 days of the year or 52% of the time. Cork, the second city, rains 204 days of the year or 56% of the time. 
http://www.met.ie/climate-ireland/1981-2010/dublin.html


In contrast London,  rains 109 days a year, or 29% of the time. Paris is 115 days of the year or 31% of the time. Amsterdam rains 132 days at 36%. Berlin is 101 days at 27%. Stockholm is 100 also at 27%. Olso is 77 days at 21%. Madrid is 59 at 16%.

I obviously never said Irish rain is more uncomfortable, it just rains a lot more here.

I guarantee if we were living in Oslo and Stockholm there'd be moaning about the snow and ice, or moaning about the heat in Madrid.

snotboogie

murpho999 wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Dublin, one of the driest parts of Ireland, on average rains 191 days of the year or 52% of the time. Cork, the second city, rains 204 days of the year or 56% of the time. 
http://www.met.ie/climate-ireland/1981-2010/dublin.html


In contrast London,  rains 109 days a year, or 29% of the time. Paris is 115 days of the year or 31% of the time. Amsterdam rains 132 days at 36%. Berlin is 101 days at 27%. Stockholm is 100 also at 27%. Olso is 77 days at 21%. Madrid is 59 at 16%.

I obviously never said Irish rain is more uncomfortable, it just rains a lot more here.

Hold on, most of those days are less than 0.2m which is nothing.

It could rain for a few minutes in the middle of the night and be dry the whole day for that stat to happen.

Days where it's just raining all day are quite rare.

No they are not, all of the days are over .2mm, 129 of the 191 are over 1mm.

pauliebdub

It's good, better than the vast majority of countries and great if you live outside Dublin. It's not without its problems though.

TimeToShine

murpho999 wrote: »

This is total rubbish.

I run and cycle all year round and it's hardly ever stopped by weather. We may not get the hot summers of other countries but our weather is no where as bad as people make out.

I’m not talking about running or cycling. I spend plenty of my time outdoors but I wouldn’t consider exercise and hiking as factors in the standard of life argument that’s being discussed here. People who do that do it no matter what the weather. Furthermore, I don’t think it’s fair for you to use anecdotal evidence to back up your opinions.

I’m talking about lounging, going to the park with friends, amusement parks, going for a stroll with your family with the buggy, things that you can do on a whim because the weather is not an issue. Things that Irish people pay thousands of euro to experience two weeks of… the kind of weather that we get a few days of in the summer that has us raving like lunatics in shorts and sunglasses and gets every media outlet in the country talking. There is a world of difference between that and the middle-aged man/woman going for a run in the "perfectly grand" cloudy 8 degrees and thinking that the weather doesn’t impact their schedule.

I understand why you’d want to defend your lifestyle here though. Nobody likes to admit that they’re wrong, that the type of life they’ve chosen (given all of the options available to us as Irish passport holders) isn’t close to the best, but if you can’t grasp that the weather in this country is one of its worst aspects there really isn’t anything else to discuss here.

snotboogie

TimeToShine wrote: »

murpho999 wrote: »

This is total rubbish.  

I run and cycle all year round and it's hardly ever stopped by weather.  We may not get the hot summers of other countries but our weather is no where as bad as people make out.

I’m not talking about running or cycling. I spend plenty of my time outdoors but I wouldn’t consider exercise and hiking as factors in the standard of life argument that’s being discussed here. People who do that do it no matter what the weather. Furthermore, I don’t think it’s fair for you to use anecdotal evidence to back up your opinions.

 I’m talking about lounging, going to the park with friends, amusement parks, going for a stroll with your family with the buggy, things that you can do on a whim because the weather is not an issue. Things that Irish people pay thousands of euro to experience two weeks of… the kind of weather that we get a few days of in the summer that has us raving like lunatics in shorts and sunglasses and gets every media outlet in the country talking. There is a world of difference between that and the middle-aged man/woman going for a run in the "perfectly grand" cloudy 8 degrees and thinking that the weather doesn’t impact their schedule.

I understand why you’d want to defend your lifestyle here though.  Nobody likes to admit that they’re wrong, that the type of life they’ve chosen (given all of the options available to us as Irish passport holders) isn’t close to the best, but if you can’t grasp that the weather in this country is one of its worst aspects there really isn’t anything else to discuss here.

And it's not just the rain, Dublin averages a mere 1447 hours of sunshine a month. Compare that to the table below:
2769 Madrid
1821 Stockholm
1668 Oslo
1662 Amsterdam
1661 Paris
1632 London
1625 Berlin

seamus

snotboogie wrote: »

No they are not, all of the days are over .2mm, 129 of the 191 are over 1mm.

1mm of rain is not a lot.

Only 42 days are over 5mm of rain - that's a proper rainy day. 1-4mm of rain is barely anything. In fact that's how much fell in the east yesterday and it didn't have any real impact on being able to get out and about.

snotboogie

seamus wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

No they are not, all of the days are over .2mm, 129 of the 191 are over 1mm.

1mm of rain is not a lot.

Only 42 days are over 5mm of rain - that's a proper rainy day. 1-4mm of rain is barely anything. In fact that's how much fell in the east yesterday and it didn't have any real impact on being able to get out and about.

It's completely dependent on how the rain falls, Met Éireann define a "Wet" days as one where at least 1.0mm of rainfall is recorded in 24hrs.

snotboogie

Deedsie wrote: »

TimeToShine wrote: »

I’m not talking about running or cycling. I spend plenty of my time outdoors but I wouldn’t consider exercise and hiking as factors in the standard of life argument that’s being discussed here. People who do that do it no matter what the weather. Furthermore, I don’t think it’s fair for you to use anecdotal evidence to back up your opinions.

 I’m talking about lounging, going to the park with friends, amusement parks, going for a stroll with your family with the buggy, things that you can do on a whim because the weather is not an issue. Things that Irish people pay thousands of euro to experience two weeks of… the kind of weather that we get a few days of in the summer that has us raving like lunatics in shorts and sunglasses and gets every media outlet in the country talking. There is a world of difference between that and the middle-aged man/woman going for a run in the "perfectly grand" cloudy 8 degrees and thinking that the weather doesn’t impact their schedule.

I understand why you’d want to defend your lifestyle here though.  Nobody likes to admit that they’re wrong, that the type of life they’ve chosen (given all of the options available to us as Irish passport holders) isn’t close to the best, but if you can’t grasp that the weather in this country is one of its worst aspects there really isn’t anything else to discuss here.

Name us 10 better places to live than Ireland. Just 10, it shouldn't be hard if living in Ireland isn't close to the best place to choose to live.

The UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria. That's just in Europe off the top of my head.

seamus

snotboogie wrote: »

It's completely dependent on how the rain falls, Met Éireann define a "Wet" days as one where at least 1.0mm of rainfall is recorded in 24hrs.

Exactly. And 1mm of rain, even 4mm of rain over a 24 hour period, is not by any stretch a horrible wet day.

snotboogie

Deedsie wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

The UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria. That's just in Europe off the top of my head.

And do you live in any of them? If not, why not?

I lived abroad for most of my 20's, I have family in Ireland and have responsibilities to them which require me to live here.

snotboogie

seamus wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

It's completely dependent on how the rain falls, Met Éireann define a "Wet" days as one where at least 1.0mm of rainfall is recorded in 24hrs.

Exactly. And 1mm of rain, even 4mm of rain over a 24 hour period, is not by any stretch a horrible wet day.

It's clear english, In Ireland 1mm of rain as defined by Met Eireann is a wet day.

osarusan

When even people with nothing will be housed, kept healthy, kept safe, and educated, then we are already better off than most of the rest of the world.

When that gets taken for granted (and it's natural that it will be) then you start looking at other things in terms of value for money.

For the money we actually spend, healthcare and transport infrastructure are two things that really should be better than they are, imo.

Ulysses Gaze

snotboogie wrote: »

The UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria. That's just in Europe off the top of my head.

If you think the quality of life in the UK is better, you've probably not lived there.

London is the most overrated city in the world. Quality of life is dreadful there - everything too expensive, too crowded, dusty and dirty, people are cold as ice.

nice_guy80

osarusan wrote: »

When even people with nothing will be housed, kept healthy, kept safe, and educated, then we are already better off than most of the rest of the world.

When that gets taken for granted (and it's natural that it will be) then you start looking at other things in terms of value for money.

For the money we actually spend, healthcare and transport infrastructure are two things that really should be better than they are, imo.

Healthcare spend is under oecd average
Most of it goes on salaries

snotboogie

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

The UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria. That's just in Europe off the top of my head.

If you think the quality of life in the UK is better, you've probably not lived there.

London is the most overrated city in the world. Quality of life is dreadful there - everything too expensive, too crowded, dusty and dirty, people are cold as ice.

Completely subjective. 


The UK has a higher average net wage than us:
https://www.reinisfischer.com/average-salary-european-union-2015


The UK also has a significantly lower cost of living than us:
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2016-mid&region=150

murpho999

snotboogie wrote: »

The UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria. That's just in Europe off the top of my head.

This is all subjective.

I lived in The Netherlands for 7 years and was delighted to come back home.

They may have nice trains and hospitals but the people are as dull as dishwater and drove me mad. One of the most boring countries in the world (yea I know lots of people who've been to Amsterdam for a stag weekend will disagree, but living there is a different story).

snotboogie

murpho999 wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

The UK, France, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany and Austria. That's just in Europe off the top of my head.

This is all subjective.

I lived in The Netherlands for 7 years and was delighted to come back home.

They may have nice trains and hospitals but the people are as dull as dishwater and drove me mad.  One of the most boring countries in the world (yea I know lots of people who've been to Amsterdam for a stag weekend will disagree, but living there is a different story).

That's just a cultural difference. A Dutch person coming to Ireland will have cultural difficulties too. Like the UK the Netherlands has a higher average net salary than Ireland and a lower cost of living. Like you said it has better public services (from healthcare all the way to transport) on top of that. It also has less rain and more sunshine. I'm the one being subjective?

Rumpy Pumpy

The health system would be even better if we closed down utterly useless hospitals that specialise in nothing. Hospitals in places like Roscommon and Monaghan are a relic of a different era. Centralise the provision of services around a few strategic population centres. Alas, there's the gombeen parish pump crew who think having a shït hospital in their home town is absolutely necessary.

TimeToShine

Deedsie wrote: »

Name us 10 better places to live than Ireland. Just 10, it shouldn't be hard if living in Ireland isn't close to the best place to choose to live.

You seem to be taking this personally for some reason.

For the record, in my opinion there are probably 5 cities in California alone that would be better to live in than Dublin. God forbid you live in one of the lesser cities or the country, there are probably close to a hundred worldwide. It probably comes down to personal preference as well, young Johnny from Monaghan is unlikely to want to leave the family/lifestyle behind and move to San Diego or Vancouver, but if we’re talking open-minded people who are looking at matters objectively with no binding family ties I stand by my view that there are plenty of far better places. It’s a pointless discussion regardless because people rarely downgrade - if you move you’ll look to raise your standard of life be that with higher income or living situation, you will not be drawing a city out of a hat so even if only 2% of the world is better to live in you are still entitled to aim for it. The way the Irish system works now has graduates coming out of college straight into graduate programs at which point the pressure to get a mortgage will start mounting. Moving abroad now is a lot more difficult than it was 10 years ago – subverting expectation by not settling down by age X especially when the beaten path is so established nearly requires external triggers (such as a recession) for people to start seriously considering it.

All of this is my opinion, of course.

murpho999

snotboogie wrote: »

That's just a cultural difference. A Dutch person coming to Ireland will have cultural difficulties too. Like the UK the Netherlands has a higher average net salary than Ireland and a lower cost of living. Like you said it has better public services (from healthcare all the way to transport) on top of that. It also has less rain and more sunshine. I'm the one being subjective?

You have to admit that cultural differences have a huge impact on quality of life.

I would also argue about the weather in Netherlands. Definitely warmer and sunnier in summer but winters are hard there. Much colder than here and they can have lots of rain.

snotboogie

murpho999 wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

That's just a cultural difference. A Dutch person coming to Ireland will have cultural difficulties too. Like the UK the Netherlands has a higher average net salary than Ireland and a lower cost of living. Like you said it has better public services (from healthcare all the way to transport) on top of that. It also has less rain and more sunshine. I'm the one being subjective?

You have to admit that cultural differences have a huge impact on quality of life.

I would also argue about the weather in Netherlands.  Definitely warmer and sunnier in summer but winters are hard there.  Much colder than here and they can have lots of rain.

Of course which is why most people don't move country, it's difficult. It doesn't say anything about the overall standard of living in a particular country though.

delop

Its subjective

Steve F

I hope I don't get jumped on for this but after living in both the UK and Ireland for years,not just the odd few days or a 2 week holiday,I must state that climate does contribute to overall quality of life including physical and mental health,in my opinion.
The South East of England particularly has a more Mediterranean feel to it than the rest of the UK and Ireland.
Are there any statistics that link poor climate to negative health issues I wonder?

For Forks Sake

Deedsie wrote: »

Of the OECD nations, Ireland's life expectancy is in the top 20 in the world and improving. Healthcare can't be that bad?

We could eradicate death itself and some folk on here would still be complaining

Steve F

TimeToShine wrote: »

I don't think people realize just how big a contributor to the sub-standard quality of life the weather is. Spending 75% of the year cooped up in either your house or the pub, to me at least, really isn't an indicator of a high standard of living. Living somewhere like California or New York would really open your eyes with regards to how badly the weather spoils the fun here.

That!!

Saipanne

If you think rain in cities is bad, it rains far more up our mountains. And yet, thousands of people hike every weekend.

It's madness, Joe. Just madness.

snotboogie

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Deedsie wrote: »

Of the OECD nations, Ireland's life expectancy is in the top 20 in the world and improving. Healthcare can't be that bad?

We could eradicate death itself and some folk on here would still be complaining

We're 29th in Europe for healthcare:
https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2016-mid®ion=150

Steve F

Steve F wrote: »

That!!

It really is true. I have the unbearable heat problem in the summer and walking to the shop sometimes feels like a Herculean effort.

Saipanne

snotboogie wrote: »

We're 29th in Europe for healthcare:
https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2016-mid®ion=150

Numbeo? Top source.

steddyeddy

Steve F wrote: »

I hope I don't get jumped on for this but after living in both the UK and Ireland for years,not just the odd few days or a 2 week holiday,I must state that climate does contribute to overall quality of life including physical and mental health,in my opinion.
The South East of England particularly has a more Mediterranean feel to it than the rest of the UK and Ireland.
Are there any statistics that link poor climate to negative health issues I wonder?

Yes incidence of MS correlates positively with cold, wet climates.

snotboogie

Saipanne wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

We're 29th in Europe for healthcare:
https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2016-mid®ion=150

Numbeo? Top source.

Question the source without providing a better one? Great contribution to the discussion.

cnocbui

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

I would rate it excellent. We live in one of the most stable countries in the world. Politically, economically, low-ish crime rates and no tornadoes/earthquakes/Mother Nature-on-a-rampage events. Social welfare is a notch above most in Europe.

Sure there's room for improvement and certain countries are ahead of us in certain things. Public transport and health are bad notably. But all in all, we're in the top few percent of the world.

A medical system that's 3rd world bad with a similar rating to Bulgaria. Ireland rates well compared to the world as a whole, but in the developed world, it isn't in the top few percent.

guile4582

Everyone is in it for themselves

Herb Powell

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Begrudery is a national past time in Ireland you do it as well. We all do. Anyone who says they don't is a bold faced liar.

Ireland is a cesspool of corruption. Every government, every deal, every person in authority is working an angle to feather their own nest and take from yours.

Nice country, shame about those in charge though.

I see this being mentioned a few times in this thread.

Ireland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

Let that sink in.

guile4582

Herb Powell wrote: »

I see this being mentioned a few times in this thread.

Ireland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

Let that sink in.

we are THAT good at it that's why

threeball

One of the best countries in the world in which to live but could be even better if we could just weed out the corruption which is rife.

The d1ckhead is king in Ireland. The more you are willing to step on someone the more successful you will be. We have absolutely no rules to punish someone for screwing someone else over.
The cream can never rise to the top as there's always lads taking backhanders to promote the sh1ttiest candidate/product etc. and then we spend a fortune on "consultants" again to recommend another way of doing things when it falls apart. Only problem is the next "consultants" are on the take also just from someone else.

For some reason we love to laud the stoker but the guy is honest and hardworking gets nailed to the cross.

Steve F

Deleted User wrote: »

It really is true. I have the unbearable heat problem in the summer and walking to the shop sometimes feels like a Herculean effort.

Some would say it's easier to get cool than to stay warm

I for one would swap warm and dry for cold and damp any day

Saipanne

snotboogie wrote: »

Question the source without providing a better one? Great contribution to the discussion.

No need to. It is perfectly reasonable to simply cast doubt on yours, unless you assume it is perfect and there simply cannot be a better approach? If so, what do you base this on?

For example, what is the sample size for these surveys? What is the sampling methodology used to minimise bias? These are basic questions.

Without answers to both these questions, you may as well invent rankings in your head. Only a fool would believe these numbers without question.


Edit. I checked, the sample size is 118. The sampling methodology is entirely random, it's just people voting on their website.

https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/country_result.jsp?country=Ireland

Sorry, but no. That isn't a reliable source. Not even close.


Here, Survey Methodology is a field of study. I studied it for two years as part of my degree. Look into it for yourself to see what bollocks you're defending here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survey_methodology

threeball

Herb Powell wrote: »

I see this being mentioned a few times in this thread.

Ireland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

Let that sink in.

Corruption in this country is low level but widespread. Its so low level it doesn't even register but still has a huge influence on the way the market operates. Lads taking a couple of hundred here and there to recommend one thing over another where the merits are secondary considerations.

namloc1980

threeball wrote: »

One of the best countries in the world in which to live but could be even better if we could just weed out the corruption which is rife.

The d1ckhead is king in Ireland. The more you are willing to step on someone the more successful you will be. We have absolutely no rules to punish someone for screwing someone else over.
The cream can never rise to the top as there's always lads taking backhanders to promote the sh1ttiest candidate/product etc. and then we spend a fortune on "consultants" again to recommend another way of doing things when it falls apart. Only problem is the next "consultants" are on the take also just from someone else.

For some reason we love to laud the stoker but the guy is honest and hardworking gets nailed to the cross.

Is that honestly any different in other countries?