Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VIII: May the Fourth Star Be With You!

Clegg

Ross had a 30+ streak of consecutive 6N games for Ireland iirc.

Testament to his quality and longevity.

letf

Tarf1234 wrote: »

4 TH props would be slightly excessive considering you have some good young guys coming through plus 2 established players there already.
Don't rate Heffernan either.

Given lack of proven depth and ability below Bent it seems warranted to me.

Aungier isn't going to be playing senior rugby next season.

We don't have anyone coming through there at the moment, there is a large amount of hope riding on Porter being able to convert to that position.

Connolly is the best ireland u20 TH prop from leinster since Furlong.

Both Loughman and Porter are converts from loosehead and Heffernan does not have a good reputation.

Tarf1234

letf wrote: »

Given lack of proven depth and ability below Bent it seems warranted to me.

Aungier isn't going to be playing senior rugby next season.

We don't have anyone coming through there at the moment, there is a large amount of hope riding on Porter being able to convert to that position.

Connolly is the best ireland u20 TH prop from leinster since Furlong.

Both Loughman and Porter are converts from loosehead and Heffernan does not have a good reputation.

I've not been as impressed by Connolly as you but agree he is a better option to Heffernan. If they keep Heffernan then I don't see the need for Connolly. He's as far away from being ready for pro rugby as Aungier is and doesn't look to have the same potential. If Heffernan goes then maybe I could see them taking in Connolly or alternatively Abdaladze from Tarf who I'd rate higher then Connolly. Don't see either happening though unfortunately.

letf

Tarf1234 wrote: »

I've not been as impressed by Connolly as you but agree he is a better option to Heffernan. If they keep Heffernan then I don't see the need for Connolly. He's as far away from being ready for pro rugby as Aungier is and doesn't look to have the same potential. If Heffernan goes then maybe I could see them taking in Connolly or alternatively Abdaladze from Tarf who I'd rate higher then Connolly. Don't see either happening though unfortunately.

Abdaladze doesn't even play TH for Tarf... I think you might be a slight bit biased.

Buer

Ed Byrne out for a few weeks with another injury? He's a tad injury prone is Ed.

Buer

Indo reporting that it looks like RK is gone for the season. Should be an opportunity to give Carbery a decent run at 15.

Cullen remaining coy on Heaslip but it looks like his season is over too as suspected.

"He's still a bit away yet. We'll see how guys react post surgery. You give them time frames; six to eight weeks, sometimes that turns into 10 weeks."

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Ed Byrne out for a few weeks with another injury? He's a tad injury prone is Ed.

It's his hammer.

Unfortunately when you're out for that long your muscles tend to shorten and you can do all the rehab in the world but you'll be prone to things snapping in the first while as you put yourself through pressure you wouldn't in rehab.

CatFromHue

Looks like Dave Kearney is also gone for the season too

Tarf1234

letf wrote: »

Abdaladze doesn't even play TH for Tarf... I think you might be a slight bit biased.

Not denying some bias but he has played a good bit of TH for Tarf last year and has swapped over during games a bit this year. Ideally he should have been playing more TH this year but with the options available that didn't happen. A lot more senior exp then Connolly and a better all round player in my opinion.
I don't see him or Connolly getting in either way.

.ak

Yeah and Henshaw has sore/bruised ribs.

I imagine we'll see;

Kirchner
Byrne
Ringrose
Reid
McFadden
Byrne
JGP
Conan
Jvdf
Ruddock
Maloney
Kearney
Bent
Cronin
Dooley

letf

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Not denying some bias but he has played a good bit of TH for Tarf last year and has swapped over during games a bit this year. Ideally he should have been playing more TH this year but with the options available that didn't happen. A lot more senior exp then Connolly and a better all round player in my opinion.
I don't see him or Connolly getting in either way.

Vakh is a year and a half older than Connolly, it's hardly surprising he has more senior experience.

Connolly almost certainly deserves a spot over him, will he get one along with Aungier? Maybe not, but if he doesn't it's a mistake by Leinster.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Yeah and Henshaw has sore/bruised ribs.

I imagine we'll see;

Kirchner
Byrne
Ringrose
Reid
McFadden
Byrne
JGP
Conan
Jvdf
Ruddock
Maloney
Kearney
Bent
Cronin
Dooley

After the game on Sunday I'd be shocked to see any of our 80 minute men involved at all tbh.

Dooley Cronin Bent
Molony Nagle
Leavy Timmins VDF

JGP Byrne
Reid ROL
McFadden Kirchner Byrne

Tracy, Porter, Ross, Kearney, Deegan, McCarthy, Daly, Daly

Yes, I know. It's as well we have the home SF in the bag.

RichieRich89

Is Marsh back from injury yet? He might get in on the bench if he's fit

molloyjh

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Is Marsh back from injury yet? He might get in on the bench if he's fit

Looks to be. He might feature all right.

pickarooney

Are the Dalys related?

Stainalert

pickarooney wrote: »

Are the Dalys related?

No

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

Are the Dalys related?

This seems to get asked Daly

CatFromHue

I thought they were married

CatFromHue

Ross also revealed his career path post-rugby, which is slightly different to the usual route of punditry and/or coaching. He is working with a software company called Wizuda:

They specialise in data protection. So if you have any details with a company, you have the right to have them looked after. So if I search something on Amazon, within ten minutes I'll see targeted ads. I think people are getting fed up of it, and it will be interesting to see what is done in the legislature over the coming years to see what is done with that. But for now, we have this EU directive that all companies have to comply with, or the fines can be quite substantial: 20 million, or 4% of your turnover, whichever is larger. So there is a substantial incentive there for people to comply with it. So we have developed a system to make sure people are covered, and it's a very interesting field.

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/mike-ross-363817

A bit of info on Ross's new job, no new rugby game I'm afraid

CatFromHue

CatFromHue wrote: »

A bit of info on Ross's new job, no new rugby game I'm afraid

It's a lucrative area no doubt, if you know your stuff you can earn great cache.

CMOTDibbler

They specialise in data protection. So if you have any details with a company, you have the right to have them looked after. So if I search something on Amazon, within ten minutes I'll see targeted ads. I think people are getting fed up of it, and it will be interesting to see what is done in the legislature over the coming years to see what is done with that. But for now, we have this EU directive that all companies have to comply with, or the fines can be quite substantial: 20 million, or 4% of your turnover, whichever is larger. So there is a substantial incentive there for people to comply with it. So we have developed a system to make sure people are covered, and it's a very interesting field.

Only a prop would find compliance with data protection legislation very interesting.

Buer

Decent interview with Ross on OTB last night. They read him a couple of quotes from the last couple of years regarding his retirement. To paraphrase, they were along the lines of not saying that, for him to retire, they'd have to drag him out kicking and screaming.

Unfortunately, that appears to have been the case. He wasn't offered a new deal from Leinster and said that for him to accept a deal from abroad it would have to be seriously lucrative given his family is settled. So it appears he was surplus and Leinster are looking to the future. I can understand it and Ross would be on a decent salary which is probably needed for the likes of Fardy and Lowe. Still sorry to see him bow out.

letf

Bizarre as Leinster are incredibly light at tighthead prop next season.. in fact they are relying on Porter picking up the position incredibly quickly.

I'd also worry about the scrum in general without Ross's input around, I guess we will see how good a coach Fogarty really is.

Buer

He said he reckons the impetus for the end was the hamstring injury. In fairness, if you're 37 and you miss over 3 months in the middle of the season due to an injury, I'd imagine it's going to make the offer of a new contract quite unlikely. Leinster probably viewed it as the time to bite the bullet and roll the dice on the matter.

It's incredible that he was still working in a lab at 25 and now he's retiring as arguably the most decorated Irish tighthead prop in history.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Decent interview with Ross on OTB last night. They read him a couple of quotes from the last couple of years regarding his retirement. To paraphrase, they were along the lines of not saying that, for him to retire, they'd have to drag him out kicking and screaming.

Unfortunately, that appears to have been the case. He wasn't offered a new deal from Leinster and said that for him to accept a deal from abroad it would have to be seriously lucrative given his family is settled. So it appears he was surplus and Leinster are looking to the future. I can understand it and Ross would be on a decent salary which is probably needed for the likes of Fardy and Lowe. Still sorry to see him bow out.

He was offered a new deal, he said there was an option for another year.

Edit - it was in my podcast app so I listened again, yeah sounds like he said there wasn't an option. And in the context of the conversation that makes sense. Listening last night I would have sworn he said there was an option for another year.

Buer

Johnny Short Drummer wrote: »

He was offered a new deal, he said there was an option for another year.

The host asked him if that's how it had worked out (based on the quote that he'd "have to be dragged out kicking and screaming; the decision will have to be made for me")

Yeah, pretty much. There wasn't an option for another year with Leinster there and I didn't really want to go abroad. It would have had to have been a fairly lucrative offer

Buer

Buer wrote: »

The host asked him if that's how it had worked out (based on the quote that he'd "have to be dragged out kicking and screaming; the decision will have to be made for me")

Yeah I corrected myself above.

Former Former

letf wrote: »

Bizarre as Leinster are incredibly light at tighthead prop next season.. in fact they are relying on Porter picking up the position incredibly quickly.

I'd also worry about the scrum in general without Ross's input around, I guess we will see how good a coach Fogarty really is.

We have Furlong, and Bent is by some distance the best second-choice tighthead at any of the provinces. I'd be optimistic that Heffernan or Porter can at least step up to third-choice level.

letf

Former Former wrote: »

We have Furlong, and Bent is by some distance the best second-choice tighthead at any of the provinces. I'd be optimistic that Heffernan or Porter can at least step up to third-choice level.

So we are an injury away from relying on one of Heffernan/Porter/Loughman in europe... two converted looseheads and a tighthead not well regarded in the AIL.

God knows what sort of shape Furlong will come back from the Lions in.

It's pretty weak, they should have offered Ross one more year for me.

letf

letf wrote: »

So we are an injury away from relying on one of Heffernan/Porter/Loughman in europe... two converted looseheads and a tighthead not well regarded in the AIL.

God knows what sort of shape Furlong will come back from the Lions in.

It's pretty weak, they should have offered Ross one more year for me.

Yeah I agree, surprising enough. Guess they have faith in one of the young lads.

irishbucsfan

letf wrote: »

So we are an injury away from relying on one of Heffernan/Porter/Loughman in europe... two converted looseheads and a tighthead not well regarded in the AIL.

God knows what sort of shape Furlong will come back from the Lions in.

It's pretty weak, they should have offered Ross one more year for me.

Worth considering that its not just a case of offering Ross another year. It's a case of offering him another year at an amount that he considers enough for him to stay in the sport.

Buer

letf wrote: »

So we are an injury away from relying on one of Heffernan/Porter/Loughman in europe... two converted looseheads and a tighthead not well regarded in the AIL.

Which was where we were for 4 of the ECC pool games this season.

It's not ideal but, with another 6 months of training and exposure, one of them should be able to come in for 15-20 minutes of a pool game. I imagine one of them will be getting a good bit of game time in the first month next season anyway.

There's a limited budget. Ross wouldn't be on bad money at all. His departure would probably provide the bulk of the salary for someone like Lowe.

letf

Buer wrote: »

Which was where we were for 4 of the ECC pool games this season.

It's not ideal but, with another 6 months of training and exposure, one of them should be able to come in for 15-20 minutes of a pool game. I imagine one of them will be getting a good bit of game time in the first month next season anyway.

There's a limited budget. Ross wouldn't be on bad money at all. His departure would probably provide the bulk of the salary for someone like Lowe.

Not based on their performances to date at AIL level i'm afraid.

One of them will need to make a significant improvement in their scrummaging in the coming months.. it's possible but unlikely.. especially with all the scrum knowledge leaving with Ross.

Winters

What team has 3 European standard TH props anyway?

Winters

Winters wrote: »

What team has 3 European standard TH props anyway?

This is in no way an argument against offering him another year.

Former Former

Ah jaysus, you're talking about tighthead props who are 21 and 22 years of age. You can't judge them at all yet.

Furlong is 24. In the space of a year, he has gone from total liability at international level to likely Lions test starter.

letf

Former Former wrote: »

Ah jaysus, you're talking about tighthead props who are 21 and 22 years of age. You can't judge them at all yet.

Furlong is 24. In the space of a year, he has gone from total liability at international level to likely Lions test starter.

Please stop, none of the tighthead props in the system have shown the potential or ability of Furlong at the same age.

Comparing them to him is laughable.

Furlong also had the benefit of working closely with Ross, something Porter/Loughman/Heffernan unfortunately will not.

Leinster are getting weaker with the loss of Ross, there will almost certainly be some pain associated with replacing him as 3rd choice TH.

In my opinion that pain could have been eased by giving him another contract and allowing the younger TH's another season to develop and learn from him.

Buer

Winters wrote: »

What team has 3 European standard TH props anyway?

Exactly. When we had Ross, Bent, Furlong and Moore it was probably the best tighthead prop corps in the history of European rugby. It was also completely unsustainable financially.

What are the tighthead options at the other provinces?

Munster: Ryan, Archer, Scott
Ulster: Herbst, Ah You, Lutton
Connacht: Bealham, Carey, Roberston-McCoy,

I think we're in pretty solid shape. Our weakest point may be weaker than some of the weakest at the other provinces but our first and second choices are probably the best of any.

Mike Ross has been an outstanding player for Leinster but I can't really get behind giving what we must assume would be a decent contract to a guy who turns 38 this year to be available in the event that someone gets injured.

Whether we like it or not, Leinster is a professional set up and a business that needs to adhere to it's financial limitations. Would the above scenario be the best use of those resources?

The simple reality is that If we had kept Mike Ross we would have been foolish to play him when all are fit. He would be 3rd choice and standing in the way of others developing. I appreciate that he would add value with experience but he would be an injury standby for us at best.

We've forced our hand a bit in that we will be having to utilise inexperience on the bench should Furlong or Bent get injured and when Furlong is away on International duty. But I think it's the progressive thing to do. Pain now, less pain later.

It's probably the one thing Leinster haven't been great at and I'm glad to see them being more proactive with continuity planning.

Former Former

letf wrote: »

Please stop, none of the tighthead props in the system have shown the potential or ability of Furlong at the same age.

Comparing them to him is laughable.

Furlong also had the benefit of working closely with Ross, something Porter/Loughman/Heffernan unfortunately will not.

Leinster are getting weaker with the loss of Ross, there will almost certainly be some pain associated with replacing him as 3rd choice TH.

In my opinion that pain could have been eased by giving him another contract and allowing the younger TH's another season to develop and learn from him.

I'm not comparing them to Furlong.

I'm using Furlong as an example as to how you cannot judge young props by the same criteria as other positions, that they develop at different rates.

We have to give the young guys a chance, give them game time and see how they get on. Keeping Ross would be great but every minute of game time he gets is one minute less for the youngsters. It's not solving a problem, it's kicking it down the road.

Winters

Former Former wrote: »

I'm not comparing them to Furlong.

I'm using Furlong as an example as to how you cannot judge young props by the same criteria as other positions, that they develop at different rates.

We have to give the young guys a chance, give them game time and see how they get on. Keeping Ross would be great but every minute of game time he gets is one minute less for the youngsters. It's not solving a problem, it's kicking it down the road.

And any game time Ross got in the latter stages of this season were against the likes of Dragons etc which is perfect for developing props.

Winters

Winters wrote: »

And any game time Ross got in the latter stages of this season were against the likes of Dragons etc which is perfect for developing props.

Having a record of his line break and offload though is completely worth it.

If we can win him another pro12 medal and have a big send off for him in the RDS or Aviva I would be very happy.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

and now he's retiring as arguably the most decorated Irish tighthead prop in history.

Winters

Actually, who is more decorated?...

Winters

Winters wrote: »

Actually, who is more decorated?...

I'm guessing the 'arguable' comes in because Hayes won a Slam while Ross one two 6Ns, which is obviously more than one 6N.

I mean it is Ross, he has more medals I think.

thomond2006

Mike Ross wasn't a Lion.

letf

Former Former wrote: »

I'm not comparing them to Furlong.

I'm using Furlong as an example as to how you cannot judge young props by the same criteria as other positions, that they develop at different rates.

We have to give the young guys a chance, give them game time and see how they get on. Keeping Ross would be great but every minute of game time he gets is one minute less for the youngsters. It's not solving a problem, it's kicking it down the road.

I'm judging the academy props by the same same criteria I judged Furlong/Moore when they were in the academy.

None of the props in the academy have shown the same ability as tighthead props at the same age or younger.

Leinster are taking a risk, i'm sure it's a calculated one, but it could be very costly. As there is no obvious tighthead prop in the academy ready to step up.

Clegg

You get nothing for being a Lion though.

Winters

Johnny Short Drummer wrote: »

I'm guessing the 'arguable' comes in because Hayes won a Slam while Ross one two 6Ns, which is obviously more than one 6N.

I mean it is Ross, he has more medals I think.

And two Heineken Cups each. Rossy's Challenge cup probably pips it..

Former Former

Winters wrote: »

Actually, who is more decorated?...

It's very close.

Hayes: One 6N (Grand Slam), two HCs, three league titles

Ross: Two 6N (no GS), two HCs, one Challenge Cup, two league titles