Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VIII: May the Fourth Star Be With You!

irishbucsfan

Clegg wrote: »

You get nothing for being a Lion though.

You get a big bag of money

letf

Hope to see the following players get gametime this friday:

Peter Dooley
James Tracy
Ross Molony
James Ryan
Peadar Timmins
Max Deegan
Nick McCarthy
Ross Byrne
Tom Daly
Adam Byrne
Rory O'Loughlin

Ross Molony made an impact when he came on against Clermont. Carried a lot of ball and held his own in the contact area defensively. Good cameo.

stephen_n

letf wrote: »

Please stop, none of the tighthead props in the system have shown the potential or ability of Furlong at the same age.

Comparing them to him is laughable.

Furlong also had the benefit of working closely with Ross, something Porter/Loughman/Heffernan unfortunately will not.

Leinster are getting weaker with the loss of Ross, there will almost certainly be some pain associated with replacing him as 3rd choice TH.

In my opinion that pain could have been eased by giving him another contract and allowing the younger TH's another season to develop and learn from him.

We don't need any of them to come on to the level of Furlong. The comparison is based on a timescale for progress. We only need one of them to progress to the level of a third choice tighthead. Given how quickly we were able to progress Furlong, that should easily be achievable. Keeping Ross around would block any chance of them progressing and tie up funds from signings like Fardy, who we will badly need with Triggs gone. I'm sure Ross could be hired as a part time scrum coach if Leinster really felt the need. Fogarty and Leo have done a really good job with the forwards and are very well placed to figure out our needs. Also they'd have a very good idea of where these lads are
At.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Ross Molony made an impact when he came on against Clermont. Carried a lot of ball and held his own in the contact area defensively. Good cameo.

Yeah, I was happy with the way he put his hand up for work. Didn't have any eye catching moments but at least didn't fade into the background. At 22, it's a good sign. Still needs to tighten his game up but I would say he's still adjusting to the additional bulk he's carrying. We might not see him really deliver on his potential until he's 24 or 25.

I'd still like him to be more authoritive though. I think our locks were generally quite weak at the weekend. Restarts were poor. A few times a lock appeared to go up for a ball but didn't get near it and Nacewa fielded in a deeper position.

Wasps game aside, Toner has not been good over the past few months. He's certain to go to Japan given the lack of senior options but a break from the game would benefit him.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

Wasps game aside, Toner has not been good over the past few months. He's certain to go to Japan given the lack of senior options but a break from the game would benefit him.

I've noticed this alright. He was huge back in November but has declined a bit as the season has gone on. Even the lineout has been troublesome all season, this was called out well before the 15 minute disaster at the weekend.

letf

stephen_n wrote: »

We don't need any of them to come on to the level of Furlong. The comparison is based on a timescale for progress. We only need one of them to progress to the level of a third choice tighthead. Given how quickly we were able to progress Furlong, that should easily be achievable. Keeping Ross around would block any chance of them progressing and tie up funds from signings like Fardy, who we will badly need with Triggs gone. I'm sure Ross could be hired as a part time scrum coach if Leinster really felt the need. Fogarty and Leo have done a really good job with the forwards and are very well placed to figure out our needs. Also they'd have a very good idea of where these lads are
At.

None of them have the natural talent of Furlong as a tighthead. They will all struggle to be effective 3rd choice TH's for Leinster next season.

Leinster aren't so tight on money that keeping Ross for a year, would have prevented signing Fardy or Lowe. The two are not linked.

Sangre

Toner just looks less fit overall which no doubt also results in errors. Hopefully a good pre-season will do wonders for him as his ability to put in 80 minutes has been very useful in the past.

CMOTDibbler

letf wrote: »

None of them have the natural talent of Furlong as a tighthead. They will all struggle to be effective 3rd choice TH's for Leinster next season.

Leinster aren't so tight on money that keeping Ross for a year, would have prevented signing Fardy or Lowe. The two are not linked.

Mike Ross himself didn't get his first pro cap until he was 25 going on 26. There's no set in stone timescale for props to develop, but generally speaking it's later than any other position.

The Leinster management believe that these guys have the capability. I think I'd be prepared to accept that they know better than me.

letf

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Mike Ross himself didn't get his first pro cap until he was 25 going on 26. There's no set in stone timescale for props to develop, but generally speaking it's later than any other position.

The Leinster management believe that these guys have the capability. I think I'd be prepared to accept that they know better than me.

the Leinster management also make mistakes.

CMOTDibbler

letf wrote: »

the Leinster management also make mistakes.

Perhaps they do. But they have far more data inputs to base their decisions on than you or I.

Leocaster OUT#

Winters

letf wrote: »

the Leinster management also make mistakes.

People on the internet are known to make mistakes too.

letf

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Perhaps they do. But they have far more data inputs to base their decisions on than you or I.

Perhaps they do? Of course they do.

Is questioning the coaches decisions not allowed or something?

letf

Winters wrote: »

People on the internet are known to make mistakes too.

never claimed to be infallible, just posting my opinion based on what Ive seen..

thought that was the idea of boards.

CMOTDibbler

letf wrote: »

Perhaps they do? Of course they do.

Is questioning the coaches decisions not allowed or something?

Did anybody here actually say that?

Is arguing against your points not allowed? :pac:

letf

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Did anybody here actually say that?

Is arguing against your points not allowed? :pac:

when your reply is well the coaches know best.. it's not exactly constructive discussion or encouraging it.

but fair enough thats your prerogative.

Former Former

Quick question letf. Are you the same person as Nift?

CMOTDibbler

letf wrote: »

when your reply is well the coaches know best.. it's not exactly constructive discussion or encouraging it.

but fair enough thats your prerogative.

I said they knew better than me. Feel free to explain how you know better than them.

letf

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I said they knew better than me. Feel free to explain how you know better than them.

I've never claimed to know better than them.. just that using the explanation that the coaches know best doesn't exactly encourage discussion on a discussion board.

After all the coaches know best so why bother discussing anything selection related etc.

letf

Former Former wrote: »

Quick question letf. Are you the same person as Nift?

No idea who that person is.

Granny15

Former Former wrote: »

Quick question letf. Are you the same person as Nift?

No but he might be ESPN in disguise

CMOTDibbler

letf wrote: »

I've never claimed to know better than them.. just that using the explanation that the coaches know best doesn't exactly encourage discussion on a discussion board.

After all the coaches know best so why bother discussing anything selection related etc.

It's not a discussion if you say black and refuse to explain why it's not white. If that's all you're saying, then it's quite valid to use the coaching team's credentials as a basis for their decision in the matter. They have an opinion based on far more than some AIL matches.

Granny15

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I said they knew better than me. Feel free to explain how you know better than them.

People are allowed to express opinions particularly if it against what the coaches are doing. This promotes discussion.

Anyway I'd say Leo has done well but not as well as Lancaster has.

There might be all kinds of reasons players aren't kept on that don't make sense such as coaches differing opinions.

stephen_n

letf wrote: »

None of them have the natural talent of Furlong as a tighthead. They will all struggle to be effective 3rd choice TH's for Leinster next season.

Leinster aren't so tight on money that keeping Ross for a year, would have prevented signing Fardy or Lowe. The two are not linked.

How do you know they will struggle, what are you basing that on? A few AIL games? The whole point is players can progress relatively quickly as Furlong did, a year and a half a go, no one would have thought Furlong would be starting for the lions, even though plenty would have expected him to make it eventually at international level. His performances at that point were a long way off where he is now. There is a lot expected of Porter, how quickly that happens is hard to tell.

How on earth do you seriously believe that Leinster have an extra few hundred thousand knocking around in their budget, that's just ridiculous.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Yeah, I was happy with the way he put his hand up for work. Didn't have any eye catching moments but at least didn't fade into the background. At 22, it's a good sign. Still needs to tighten his game up but I would say he's still adjusting to the additional bulk he's carrying. We might not see him really deliver on his potential until he's 24 or 25.

I'd still like him to be more authoritive though. I think our locks were generally quite weak at the weekend. Restarts were poor. A few times a lock appeared to go up for a ball but didn't get near it and Nacewa fielded in a deeper position.

Was Isa fielding the ball behind the pod though? I was getting the impression that the jumping pod was being used as a screen a lot.

Granny15 wrote: »

People are allowed to express opinions particularly if it against what the coaches are doing. This promotes discussion.

It does as long as discussion continues. Shutting down discussion or misrepresenting it after making ones point is not the same thing as discussion. Simply put letf said that the coaches have taken a big risk by not keeping Ross on because the third choice guy next season (whoever that turns out to be) doesn't look good enough. All CMOT said was that given the track record we've seen so far he was prepared to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt given that they have more data to work with than he does. Other opinions were that if Furlong was able to make a big step up in a short space of time then others are capable of making a step up too. Nobody is saying that they are stepping up to Furlongs level. That's a very different statement.

There's nothing unreasonable about those perspectives, nor are they ones that states that the coaches are infallible. If we want discussion then let's discuss what's being said. We're all more than capable of that here. And willing. Starting posts with things like "Please stop" certainly does not promote or encourage discussion.

thomond2006

Unless there is zero prospects or sufficient backup at TH then Leinster are absolutely right to let Ross go. At that age I'd be concerned of a very sudden dropoff in performance.

Quint2010

molloyjh wrote: »

Shutting down discussion or misrepresenting it after making ones point is not the same thing as discussion.

Yes Your Highness..

Podge_irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

Unless there is zero prospects or sufficient backup at TH then Leinster are absolutely right to let Ross go. At that age I'd be concerned of a very sudden dropoff in performance.

There is no way he is not on quite a large amount of cash as well. His performances this season have generally been good, but no guarantee he could keep it up at 38 and he already spent a lot of this season injured. He gets injured again next year and we end up relying on Porter and paying Ross' large salary.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Podge_irl wrote: »

thomond2006 wrote: »

Unless there is zero prospects or sufficient backup at TH then Leinster are absolutely right to let Ross go. At that age I'd be concerned of a very sudden dropoff in performance.

There is no way he is not on quite a large amount of cash as well. His performances this season have generally been good, but no guarantee he could keep it up at 38 and he already spent a lot of this season injured. He gets injured again next year and we end up relying on Porter and paying Ross' large salary.

I would say this is the key factor.
He is the Ireland prop with the second highest number of International starts in history. He wouldn't go into another season being paid a pittance and understandably so. Sad that it comes down to money but Ross would want a good chunk.

We have no idea if it's down to money or not.

Podge_irl

Johnny Short Drummer wrote: »

We have no idea if it's down to money or not.

I doubt its down to anything in isolation but I assume they'd keep him on the books if he played for free.

There is not a single scenario where a decision to sign a contract doesn't have something to do with money.

Neil3030

Are tight head and out half still the best paid positions (on average) in rugby? For such a solid hand like Ross, you could imagine his salary wasn't small.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Neil3030 wrote: »

Are tight head and out half still the best paid positions (on average) in rugby? For such a solid hand like Ross, you could imagine his salary wasn't small.

As far as I know Tight Head and Goal Kicker are the best paid positions in rugby. It just happens to be the case that the kicker is often an out half.

blackdog1

Podge_irl wrote:

There is no way he is not on quite a large amount of cash as well. His performances this season have generally been good, but no guarantee he could keep it up at 38 and he already spent a lot of this season injured. He gets injured again next year and we end up relying on Porter and paying Ross' large salary.

We should cut Sob and the 2 Kearney 's so. Ross was rarely injured best value for money leinster ever had. Stringer is 39 Doc is 38 and playing very well. The point is irrelevant now anyway. He's retired.

Former Former

Podge_irl wrote: »

I doubt its down to anything in isolation but I assume they'd keep him on the books if he played for free.

There is not a single scenario where a decision to sign a contract doesn't have something to do with money.

Cf: Lam, Mitch

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Cf: Lam, Mitch

That was just the IRFU being stupid.

RichieRich89

stephen_n wrote: »

How do you know they will struggle, what are you basing that on? A few AIL games? The whole point is players can progress relatively quickly as Furlong did, a year and a half a go, no one would have thought Furlong would be starting for the lions, even though plenty would have expected him to make it eventually at international level. His performances at that point were a long way off where he is now. There is a lot expected of Porter, how quickly that happens is hard to tell.

How on earth do you seriously believe that Leinster have an extra few hundred thousand knocking around in their budget, that's just ridiculous.

I thought three or four years ago that Furlong could easily be starting for the Lions. Anyone who saw him play Ireland U20s would have seen what an incredible player he already was then

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Former Former wrote: »

Cf: Lam, Mitch

That was just the IRFU being stupid.

Yeah sure. Where is Mitch Lam now does anyone know. Anyone?

The Lost Sheep

RichieRich89 wrote: »

I thought three or four years ago that Furlong could easily be starting for the Lions. Anyone who saw him play Ireland U20s would have seen what an incredible player he already was then

You cant really say that though. You cant look at age grade and say that irrespective of how good they may look playing against people their own age...

Buer

Stewart Maguire was walking opposition packs off their own ball at U20 level. Andrew Conway held the JWC try scoring record. JJH was a nominee for World Player of the Year.

U20 level is an indicator of a player's ability but not a particularly reliable one.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah sure. Where is Mitch Lam now does anyone know. Anyone?

Entirely irrelevant.

It was a petty move in order to score some points in a different game.
Unfortunately its something thats happening more often in recent times.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

Yeah sure. Where is Mitch Lam now does anyone know. Anyone?

Entirely irrelevant.

It was a petty move in order to score some points in a different game.
Unfortunately its something thats happening more often in recent times.

I wouldn't agree with that at all, but I suppose this is the Leinster thread so not much point going into it.

molloyjh

More on topic, I have to say I love Leinster Rugby this season. This interview with Sexton for me sums up so much of what is right about the province this season.

http://the42.ie/3358090

blackdog1

I think the main point that everyone is missing is this :

1.They obviously have no faith in Loughman and Heffernan as they converted Porter to Th. Porter also while incredibly strong has played LH all his life so he'll take time to convert. This means if we get an injury to Furlong were in a bit of trouble.

2. The standard in scrummaging at training will drop massively as we now have only 1 international quality scrummaging TH and Bent is very good pro12 standard. This will delay Porter and Dooleys development as a scrummager.

I would have prefered if Ross was kept on for a year and helped bring through Porter and Dooley some more. He's great for developing young LH'S because when he's scrummaging with them I'd say they feel very confident. When ed Byrne came back from injury he was Scrummaging with Ross and they destroyed their opposite number. That gives young players huge confidence. ...think Ed scored a try that game too.

As bad as it is him retiring a year too early in my opinion it's a bigger shame he's not gonna scrum coach in the province. Every player seems to say he's excellent at educating guys in the scrum (Furlong and McGrath said as much this week ).

Buer

blackdog1 wrote: »

I think the main point that everyone is missing is this :

1.They obviously have no faith in Loughman and Heffernan as they converted Porter to Th. Porter also while incredibly strong has played LH all his life so he'll take time to convert. This means if we get an injury to Furlong were in a bit of trouble.

Well, that's just an opinion. So I don't think people are missing it, just that they think otherwise. For example, in Porter, they see an extremely strong, large bloke who is a very promising loosehead prop. They also know that they have the best and second best loosehead props in the country (both in their twenties) alongside a 22 year old who already has 37 caps and looks very likely to be an Irish international in the future.

At tighthead they have the best tighthead in the country, an extremely competent yet unspectacular back up (who also plays loosehead and is the wrong side of 30) and, after that, a number of young guys who are in the academy.

If they really rate Porter's potential to develop into a serious professional player, which position is he more likely to provide an opportunity for him?

I'm not sure how they rate Heffernan and Loughman but even if they had very high hopes for one of them, it still makes complete sense for Porter to move across.

blackdog1

Buer wrote:

I'm not sure how they rate Heffernan and Loughman but even if they had very high hopes for one of them, it still makes complete sense for Porter to move across.

Correct me if I'm wrong but 1 of these guys plays for Ucd and for the last few weeks Porter has been playing there. So they are effectively 2nd choice Th at club level. Not a good sign

RichieRich89

Buer wrote: »

Stewart Maguire was walking opposition packs off their own ball at U20 level. Andrew Conway held the JWC try scoring record. JJH was a nominee for World Player of the Year.

U20 level is an indicator of a player's ability but not a particularly reliable one.

True enough. I remember I thought four years ago that Hanrahan would be on this Lions tour. Maybe I'm over-optimistic. Still think he's a great talent though, who has been a bit unlucky with circumstances. Hopefully things will start going right for him next season. On Porter, I think a large part of his conversion was that they didn't want to lose him through him not getting enough opportunities at loosehead

Rigor Mortis

blackdog1 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but 1 of these guys plays for Ucd and for the last few weeks Porter has been playing there. So they are effectively 2nd choice Th at club level. Not a good sign

You also have to remember that we have ludicrous riches at Loose Head. It makes sense to try and move Porter, because the alternative may well have been lose him.

I do think it is a genuine shame to see Ross go this year, but i suspect they are looking at the moneyball equation of cost per minute played and it is stacking up. His interview with Newstalk was interesting. I would imagine had he not such a young family, he would be taking up a very lucrative contract in Top14 for two years

Former Former

blackdog1 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but 1 of these guys plays for Ucd and for the last few weeks Porter has been playing there. So they are effectively 2nd choice Th at club level. Not a good sign

If the two of them are at the same club and both play the same position, then surely one of them has to be 2nd choice.