Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VIII: May the Fourth Star Be With You!

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

I dunno, Ruddock went in at lock a few weeks back (can't remember which game). There is definitely something up with our locks in general. We've seen so little of Kearney, Maccer and Nagle in the last few months. I know Nagle was unavailable for a bit and Molony was bulking up (probably still is a bit) but the others should have been available for the last while and yet haven't been seeing much game time. Compared to the first 2 months of the season when we saw a lot of rotation there, it seems that since Triggs has returned there's been a clear decision that he's number 1.

Yeah but Triggs being number 1 doesn't really affect the bench options. Having Ruddock there, which we first saw happen last season, seems more of a tactical option around back row cover. It's not like he is big enough to be a lock and they're converting him. I suppose it's a handy option to have going into games, gives additional cover off the bench depending on how the game pans out. I get the impression he's there to cover the backrow and in an emergency to go in as a lock. So he's not surpassing any of our locks, just offers more cover.

Rigor Mortis

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Have they broken him already? He left here in perfect nick. :eek:

This is why Connacht can't have nice things

MattD

It could actually be an agenda in place by Leocaster or a request from Ruddock himself to make him more of a valuable asset to Leinster and less likely to ship off to Ulster.

By next season we'll probably be down to Toner, Molony, Nagle and Kearney (if he stays- hasn't looked positive this season) as locks, with Ryan being nursed in a similar way to Molony this season. If Ruddock can become a viable 5/6, he's much more likely to stay and get game time with our back row as stocked as it is.

molloyjh

MattD wrote: »

It could actually be an agenda in place by Leocaster or a request from Ruddock himself to make him more of a valuable asset to Leinster and less likely to ship off to Ulster.

By next season we'll probably be down to Toner, Molony, Nagle and Kearney (if he stays- hasn't looked positive this season) as locks, with Ryan being nursed in a similar way to Molony this season. If Ruddock can become a viable 5/6, he's much more likely to stay and get game time with our back row as stocked as it is.

I'm starting to think Triggs should stay on. He's not always the most popular, but for SOBs break down the left last weekend it was interplay between Triggs and Toner in midfield that opened the space up. That was some lovely loose play from our second rows. He brings something none of the others behind him do in that regard. Kearney looked good last season but has been poor any time I've seen him this season. I know he was injured for a bit and hasn't seen much action so far, but he just seemed very lethargic the few times he's played. If any of our second rows should be worried about next season its him I reckon.

MattD

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm starting to think Triggs should stay on. He's not always the most popular, but for SOBs break down the left last weekend it was interplay between Triggs and Toner in midfield that opened the space up. That was some lovely loose play from our second rows. He brings something none of the others behind him do in that regard. Kearney looked good last season but has been poor any time I've seen him this season. I know he was injured for a bit and hasn't seen much action so far, but he just seemed very lethargic the few times he's played. If any of our second rows should be worried about next season its him I reckon.

Oh I like Triggs a lot! I'd like to see him stay, because (and I know this cliche gets used a lot) he seems like a great influence to have on Molony and Ryan. Appears to command a lot of respect in the dressing, rightfully so after his troubles, and has embraced Leinster a lot.

But giving a second contract to a NIQ will almost certainly open up a big can of worms. I just wouldn't be surprised if he's let go at the end of the season.

awec

NIQs get second contracts all the time, that's not an issue. But Triggs is 34 which may prove a stumbling block, Leinster might only be allowed to offer 1 more year.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

NIQs get second contracts all the time, that's not an issue. But Triggs is 34 which may prove a stumbling block, Leinster might only be allowed to offer 1 more year.

I'd take it. Set a standard for what we want from our locks in loose play and go from there.

thomond2006

Leinster have a bunch of talented locks. I don't see the need for Triggs.

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have a bunch of talented locks. I don't see the need for Triggs.

Agreed, definitely shouldn't be signing a kiwi in his mid-30s when Leinster have the players that we do.

Gfer0

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have a bunch of talented locks. I don't see the need for Triggs.

McCarthy is past it, his legs are visibily gone.
Kearney has been very poor since his injury.
Molony is very lightweight, he is our best hope.
Nagle is Nagle..

Faster James Ryan is ready the better.

Anatom

Any sign of Peadar Timmons breaking through? Although he's another backrower, he's captained the Leinster A teams a number of times this season but I haven't noticed him on the senior squad at all this year...

Peregrine

Anatom wrote: »

Any sign of Peadar Timmons breaking through? Although he's another backrower, he's captained the Leinster A teams a number of times this season but I haven't noticed him on the senior squad at all this year...

Came off the bench a few weeks ago. Against Scarlets, I think.

crisco10

Peregrine wrote: »

Came off the bench a few weeks ago. Against Scarlets, I think.

Then got concussed pretty quickly if I remember correctly?

molloyjh

Anatom wrote: »

Any sign of Peadar Timmons breaking through? Although he's another backrower, he's captained the Leinster A teams a number of times this season but I haven't noticed him on the senior squad at all this year...

He's had a couple of caps off the bench this season IIRC. I'm not going onto the Leinster website to check though.....

stephen_n

Triggs definitely provides something different. There were a couple of times last week I saw him get his hands free for an offload, just no one there to capitalise on it. Hadn't noticed before the last few games how good his handling can be. I think Molony has good hands too though, he's just a little lightweight yet, but by next season having a good pre-season he should be well cooked. If Triggs is willing to accept a one year deal, he might stay, but other than that I don't thin it's justifiable keeping him on. If Maccer retires though it, we could still be a bit light till Ryan steps up.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Leinster have a bunch of talented locks. I don't see the need for Triggs.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Agreed, definitely shouldn't be signing a kiwi in his mid-30s when Leinster have the players that we do.

But who will we have next season? Maccer will be gone and if we don't keep Triggs we'll have:

Toner - international so not always available
Nagle - has been good but is a limited player
Kearney - has really struggled so far this season and hasn't earned a spot in the senior team at all
Molony - a very good prospect if he can bulk up without losing his athleticism and skill

People keep mentioning Ryan, and he is a great prospect, but he's currently badly injured. When I did see him play he really struggled with the physicality of the game. Will need time and this injury has come at an awful time for him. I wouldn't be counting him into the list for the senior team just yet.

That's 4 locks of which 1 will be away for large parts of the season, 1 has failed to impress in any way this season and 1 that is good but limited. Then there's Molony, who is the best of the lot outside of Toner IMO.

If Kearney can turn his form around this season (which I wouldn't write off) then fair enough. We're going to have to rely fairly heavily next season on him if they are our only options as we'll only have 3 senior locks when Dev isn't available. As it stands though Triggs is worth more to us than Kearney is.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Agreed, definitely shouldn't be signing a kiwi in his mid-30s when Leinster have the players that we do.

It hasn't been a terrible idea in the past!

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

But who will we have next season? Maccer will be gone and if we don't keep Triggs we'll have:

Toner - international so not always available
Nagle - has been good but is a limited player
Kearney - has really struggled so far this season and hasn't earned a spot in the senior team at all
Molony - a very good prospect if he can bulk up without losing his athleticism and skill

People keep mentioning Ryan, and he is a great prospect, but he's currently badly injured. When I did see him play he really struggled with the physicality of the game. Will need time and this injury has come at an awful time for him. I wouldn't be counting him into the list for the senior team just yet.

That's 4 locks of which 1 will be away for large parts of the season, 1 has failed to impress in any way this season and 1 that is good but limited. Then there's Molony, who is the best of the lot outside of Toner IMO.

If Kearney can turn his form around this season (which I wouldn't write off) then fair enough. We're going to have to rely fairly heavily next season on him if they are our only options as we'll only have 3 senior locks when Dev isn't available. As it stands though Triggs is worth more to us than Kearney is.

Basically we'll have 4 senior locks and more in the academy, one of whom is as highly rated as any young player in Irish rugby, plus multiple back row players capable of covering there.

In other words, more than most professional sides and more than we have had historically.

We should not be signing NIQ players in front of young Irish prospects. You can't go and lecture other sides because they want to do that and then argue that Leinster who have one of the biggest prospects in recent times as well as multiple good Irish players should be signing someone like Triggs. He's not necessary, not even remotely necessary. He's a decent player but not nearly good enough to justify keeping, he's not international standard and we have potentially international standard Irish guys in the squad. I have some sympathy for his personal circumstances so if that comes into play and they feel they should make an exception for those reasons, then fair enough. But from an objective rugby perspective there is absolutely no justification for his signing whatsoever.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

It hasn't been a terrible idea in the past!

Hayden Triggs is not Brad Thorn.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's a decent player but not nearly good enough to justify keeping, he's not international standard and we have potentially international standard Irish guys in the squad.

Does Ian Nagle have a German granny?

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Does Ian Nagle have a German granny?

No, but Ian Nagle was starting for Leinster in Europe this season and played pretty damn well in my opinion.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, but Ian Nagle was starting for Leinster in Europe this season and played pretty damn well in my opinion.

Fair enough, but he now can't get on the bench ahead of an openside flanker. In the meantime, Triggs has established himself as a starter.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hayden Triggs is not Brad Thorn.

If I'm 100% honest, I just love that photo.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

But who will we have next season? Maccer will be gone and if we don't keep Triggs we'll have:

Toner - international so not always available
Nagle - has been good but is a limited player
Kearney - has really struggled so far this season and hasn't earned a spot in the senior team at all
Molony - a very good prospect if he can bulk up without losing his athleticism and skill

People keep mentioning Ryan, and he is a great prospect, but he's currently badly injured. When I did see him play he really struggled with the physicality of the game. Will need time and this injury has come at an awful time for him. I wouldn't be counting him into the list for the senior team just yet.

That's 4 locks of which 1 will be away for large parts of the season, 1 has failed to impress in any way this season and 1 that is good but limited. Then there's Molony, who is the best of the lot outside of Toner IMO.

If Kearney can turn his form around this season (which I wouldn't write off) then fair enough. We're going to have to rely fairly heavily next season on him if they are our only options as we'll only have 3 senior locks when Dev isn't available. As it stands though Triggs is worth more to us than Kearney is.

Triggs has been very good this year but he turns 35 next month and I don't think he's much better than the other players.

Bridge93

I'd rather we didn't sign an NIQ lock next year. If that slightly weakens us so be it but I feel it won't. Back the guys we have.

JPCN1

molloyjh wrote: »

But who will we have next season? Maccer will be gone and if we don't keep Triggs we'll have:

Toner - international so not always available
Nagle - has been good but is a limited player
Kearney - has really struggled so far this season and hasn't earned a spot in the senior team at all
Molony - a very good prospect if he can bulk up without losing his athleticism and skill

People keep mentioning Ryan, and he is a great prospect, but he's currently badly injured. When I did see him play he really struggled with the physicality of the game. Will need time and this injury has come at an awful time for him. I wouldn't be counting him into the list for the senior team just yet.

That's 4 locks of which 1 will be away for large parts of the season, 1 has failed to impress in any way this season and 1 that is good but limited. Then there's Molony, who is the best of the lot outside of Toner IMO.

If Kearney can turn his form around this season (which I wouldn't write off) then fair enough. We're going to have to rely fairly heavily next season on him if they are our only options as we'll only have 3 senior locks when Dev isn't available. As it stands though Triggs is worth more to us than Kearney is.

Isn't Thornberry coming back at some stage? Seems to have remained injury free and played well in NZ from accounts...

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Basically we'll have 4 senior locks and more in the academy, one of whom is as highly rated as any young player in Irish rugby, plus multiple back row players capable of covering there.

In other words, more than most professional sides and more than we have had historically.

We should not be signing NIQ players in front of young Irish prospects. You can't go and lecture other sides because they want to do that and then argue that Leinster who have one of the biggest prospects in recent times as well as multiple good Irish players should be signing someone like Triggs. He's not necessary, not even remotely necessary. He's a decent player but not nearly good enough to justify keeping, he's not international standard and we have potentially international standard Irish guys in the squad. I have some sympathy for his personal circumstances so if that comes into play and they feel they should make an exception for those reasons, then fair enough. But from an objective rugby perspective there is absolutely no justification for his signing whatsoever.

Multiple back rows capable of covering at lock? Who? Ruddock is the only one I can think of.

If we lose both Maccer and Triggs this season we will have 4 locks in the senior squad and 2 in the Academy (excluding any Year 1s). The 2 in the Academy will be all of 21. That's the perfect time to be giving them a couple of caps off the bench. But as we've seen with Moloney, even at 22/23 locks aren't necessarily ready for top flight rugby. Triggs wouldn't be denying them game time as I see it.

Triggs would be denying game time to one of Molony or Kearney. And a little bit of reading between the lines (it was pretty obvious I thought) would indicate I feel it would be Kearney, who has failed to impress at all this season. I wasn't hugely enthused by Triggs being kept on this year given Kearneys form in the latter part of last season, but I don't want Leinster having to rely on him next season if he doesn't improve.

As for my "lecturing" I'm comfortable that I'm not being contradictory. I clearly said in the last sentence that if Kearney refinds form then we don't need Triggs, but as it stands Kearneys form means that we do. So my position is that there should be at least 2 Irish locks in every Leinster match-day 23, 3 if Kearney can find form. But sure you have your little rant there...

molloyjh

JPCN1 wrote: »

Isn't Thornberry coming back at some stage? Seems to have remained injury free and played well in NZ from accounts...

Haven't heard tbh.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

Triggs has been very good this year but he turns 35 next month and I don't think he's much better than the other players.

He's a distance better than Kearney on current form. A distance.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Multiple back rows capable of covering at lock? Who? Ruddock is the only one I can think of.

If we lose both Maccer and Triggs this season we will have 4 locks in the senior squad and 2 in the Academy (excluding any Year 1s). The 2 in the Academy will be all of 21. That's the perfect time to be giving them a couple of caps off the bench. But as we've seen with Moloney, even at 22/23 locks aren't necessarily ready for top flight rugby. Triggs wouldn't be denying them game time as I see it.

Triggs would be denying game time to one of Molony or Kearney. And a little bit of reading between the lines (it was pretty obvious I thought) would indicate I feel it would be Kearney, who has failed to impress at all this season. I wasn't hugely enthused by Triggs being kept on this year given Kearneys form, but I don't want Leinster having to rely on him next season if he doesn't improve.

As for my "lecturing" I'm comfortable that I'm not being contradictory. I clearly said in the last sentence that if Kearney refinds form then we don't need Triggs, but as it stands Kearneys form means that we do. So my position is that there should be at least 2 Irish locks in every Leinster match-day 23, 3 if Kearney can find form. But sure you have your little rant there...

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but were you not just recently complaining about Connacht attempting to sign a short-term injury cover because they had academy players in the position who were Irish qualified, with no senior players available? Now you're saying that Leinster should be able to sign an NIQ who is of a decent standard despite the fact that they'll have at least 4 senior Irish players available (plus back row cover) and multiple academy players available. I don't see how you're not being totally inconsistent.

But let's also remember that Molony has looked more than capable of playing senior rugby and was nominated for young player of the year on the back of that. Let's remember that Kearney previously looked more than capable of playing quality rugby for Leinster. Let's remember that Ian Nagle started and did very well in the Champions Cup just a couple of months ago. Let's remember that one of the 21 year olds in the academy was one of the best performers at u20 level we've seen since Ian Henderson. And then after that let's remember that guys who are 35 years old are generally not quite as good when they're 36, while the reverse should be true of guys in their early 20s.

Leinster have a responsibility to make the most of their resources. Triggs is a marginal improvement over our other players on current form but he's also had some absolute howlers for Leinster and I'd much rather take the chance that one of our handful of young talented players will step up next season. That's the risk we have to take in order to do justice to the great source of talent we have in our province at underage levels. Triggs could also be a great signing elsewhere in Ireland for a year or two.

stephen_n

Neil3030 wrote: »

Fair enough, but he now can't get on the bench ahead of an openside flanker. In the meantime, Triggs has established himself as a starter.

Nagle is only back from injury, also don't think that Ruddock is considered a better second row option than him, just a better utility forward.

Hagz

I'd rather lose Kearney and Nagle than lose Triggs the way he's progressed.

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

I'd rather lose Kearney and Nagle than lose Triggs the way he's progressed.

That's madness. Kearney is 25. Nagle is 28.

thomond2006

Hagz wrote: »

I'd rather lose Kearney and Nagle than lose Triggs the way he's progressed.

Triggs will be 35 next month. He may not even play professional rugby next year.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but were you not just recently complaining about Connacht attempting to sign a short-term injury cover because they had academy players in the position who were Irish qualified, with no senior players available?

If you want to abbreviate what I said to suit a narrative then yes, that's what I said.

If you want to accurately reflect what I actually said on the other hand then I was querying why Connacht were looking to sign a short-term injury cover who seemed to be no better than the academy players they had available.

In this case Triggs is playing significantly better than Kearney, but should Kearney find form again then I'm happy for us to lose Triggs. So I really don't see where there's any sign of contradiction in that.

d2ww

Just to change tack here, but how prepared is Leinster/Ireland for the new tackle rules, tonight being their first outing. Or is it going to become like that hardy annual, the straight put in at the scrums?

Synode

Píssing rain where I am and the forecast not looking great for later. I suppose we've had a good run so far this year. Think I've only gotten wet at one game (a 20 minute shower at the Castres game).

Neil3030

d2ww wrote: »

Just to change tack here, but how prepared is Leinster/Ireland for the new tackle rules, tonight being their first outing. Or is it going to become like that hardy annual, the straight put in at the scrums?

Nah, I'd say they'll stick with it, as they have done with the neck rolls. I'd say we should be OK, but my main concern is whether this makes us (all Irish teams) hesitant to go in for a choke tackle, as any mistake will likely result in high contact.

irishbucsfan

d2ww wrote: »

Just to change tack here, but how prepared is Leinster/Ireland for the new tackle rules, tonight being their first outing. Or is it going to become like that hardy annual, the straight put in at the scrums?

They'll have had a referee in to training to explain their interpretation and then tonight the referee will explain his interpretation before the game. There might be a couple who need a little bit of time to get used to it but it's their own responsibilities to adapt.

molloyjh

Synode wrote: »

Píssing rain where I am and the forecast not looking great for later. I suppose we've had a good run so far this year. Think I've only gotten wet at one game (a 20 minute shower at the Castres game).

Short range forecast (which is usually pretty accurate) has the rain passing by 7pm.

Synode

Synode wrote: »

I've only gotten wet at one game (a 20 minute shower at the Castres game).

If our backline clicks I'm going to be soaking all game.

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

If our backline clicks I'm going to be soaking all game.

That's.... disgusting.

wp_rathead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If our backline clicks I'm going to be soaking all game.

... *shudders*

Peregrine

Deleted User wrote: »

If our backline clicks I'm going to be soaking all game.

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

Nah, I'd say they'll stick with it, as they have done with the neck rolls. I'd say we should be OK, but my main concern is whether this makes us (all Irish teams) hesitant to go in for a choke tackle, as any mistake will likely result in high contact.

It'll probably just make it harder to do. There are definitely ways of doing the same thing without running the risk of making contact with the head.

Anyway, making it a little harder to take advantage of a technicality which will lead to more scrums may not be the worst thing in the world either.

Neil3030

Deleted User wrote: »

Neil3030

molloyjh wrote: »

It'll probably just make it harder to do. There are definitely ways of doing the same thing without running the risk of making contact with the head.

Anyway, making it a little harder to take advantage of a technicality which will lead to more scrums may not be the worst thing in the world either.

I hope we do manage the new laws because notwithstanding your soft-handed, bubble-wrapped, nancy-boy aversion to scrummaging, we must win at least 2 turnovers per game using it.

Zzippy

molloyjh wrote: »

If you want to abbreviate what I said to suit a narrative then yes, that's what I said.

If you want to accurately reflect what I actually said on the other hand then I was querying why Connacht were looking to sign a short-term injury cover who seemed to be no better than the academy players they had available.

In this case Triggs is playing significantly better than Kearney, but should Kearney find form again then I'm happy for us to lose Triggs. So I really don't see where there's any sign of contradiction in that.

He's right though.

Let's summarise:

Connacht/Lam: Massive injury crisis, NIQ player sought for 3 week emergency cover, unlikely to block anything but an academy player for more than 1 game.
Impact for senior team: Minor but possibly vital.
Impact on development of talent: Negligible

Leinster/Triggs: No injury crisis, let's sign a NIQ for a whole season, likely to block senior prospects for Leinster/Ireland for many games during that season.
Impact for senior team: Moderate, but at what cost?
Impact on development of talent: Major


Seriously, the hypocrisy is pretty blatant. No contradictions? What are you smoking???

jspuds

Does anybody know if there are any English commentary radio broadcasts available for the match this evening? I checked the supporters site and only mention was updates on RTE radio one