Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VIII: May the Fourth Star Be With You!

Former Former

Deleted User wrote: »

Would be interesting to see a similar breakdown of Clermont's, They've at least 8 eligible players in the starting 15.

16 of the 23 (70%) are JIFF, according to their announcement.

Clegg

I don't like our back three tbh. We've done wonders with the pace of Byrne and RoL and seen that teams really don't like defending against pacy backs. Nacewa are Ferg aren't that at all. I fully understand the selection of McF but i think its a step away from everything we've built this season.

Former Former

So O'Brien is out and Clermont have all their senior forwards back.

My initial optimism is completely gone.

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

I don't like our back three tbh. We've done wonders with the pace of Byrne and RoL and seen that teams really don't like defending against pact backs. Nacewa are Ferg aren't that at all. I fully understand the selection of McF but i think its a step away from everything we've built this season.

Spot on.

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

I don't like our back three tbh. We've done wonders with the pace of Byrne and RoL and seen that teams really don't like defending against pacy backs. Nacewa are Ferg aren't that at all. I fully understand the selection of McF but i think its a step away from everything we've built this season.

Byrne is easily our fastest back but I'd say there is nothing between McFadden and O'Loughlin.

Honestly, McFadden is an extremely underrated player. There is a reason he was picked by Leo and Lancaster and recently by Joe ahead of other options. This is a "get your hands dirty" sort of game and McFadden is very much that sort of player.

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

So O'Brien is out and Clermont have all their senior forwards back.

My initial optimism is completely gone.

Yeah it's hard not to think back to some of those big moments against Clermont in previous years and not immediately think of Sean O'Brien and Heaslip.

Still though, I've felt this is a year too soon for Leinster and we've a very young team out there.

It's not a good sign that I'm already quite nervous and it's two days until kick off.

I'm not surprised to hear it's a hamstring injury that has SOB out. It can't have been something major but I know Sean has said any more hamstring injuries and he is done. Obviously not taking any chances despite the magnitude of the game.

the baby bull elephant

According to the 42 Byrne also has a hamstring problem.

leakyboots

SOB is a big loss, Adam Byrne I'm not totally surprised at 'cos I don't think his defence is up to scratch to be honest. Maybe I was getting him mixed up with Kirchener the last day but I thought Connacht made hay down his channel.

Still, you lose a good bit in attack. Time for Leavy and Conan to come of age and cause mayhem at the breakdown and carrying respectively.

Two fascinating semis, both will be close I suspect.

Best of luck to Les Bleus!

Larbre34

Conservative enough, strong feel of old dogs for the hard road.

Adam Byrne deserves a squad place for sure and I'd be starting Josh and Nugget all day, this supersub crud is fine in league games but in Cup football its seek and destroy, not play the percentages.

shuffol

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

According to the 42 Byrne also has a hamstring problem.

Says he's fit now.

CMOTDibbler

shuffol wrote: »

Says he's fit now.

That was quick. Jamie Heaslip blood transfusion?

durthacht

I wonder does this imply a lack of confidence in Carbery at 10? Including Ross Byrne means there are three fly halfs in the squad, which seems one to many with people like Adam Byrne (if fit) and ROL doing so well and bringing much needed pace but not making the squad.

I wonder if this indicates the coaches doubt Carbery as a fly half, that they rate Ross Byrne higher than Carbery, or that they see Carbery as a full back long term instead of fly half.

Or maybe they're just thinking short term only for this game and want an alternative to a positional change at both full back and fly half during the game.

I'm a little confused about three fly halfs, no pace in the back three, and no place for ROL or Adam Byrne (if fit).

Any ideas?

Former Former

durthacht wrote: »

I wonder does this imply a lack of confidence in Carbery at 10? Including Ross Byrne means there are three fly halfs in the squad, which seems one to many with people like Adam Byrne (if fit) and ROL doing so well and bringing much needed pace but not making the squad.

I wonder if this indicates the coaches doubt Carbery as a fly half, that they rate Ross Byrne higher than Carbery, or that they see Carbery as a full back long term instead of fly half.

Or maybe they're just thinking short term only for this game and want an alternative to a positional change at both full back and fly half during the game.

I'm a little confused about three fly halfs, no pace in the back three, and no place for ROL or Adam Byrne (if fit).

Any ideas?

Well, one of those fly halves is Sexton, who is only ever in one of three conditions:
- injured
- just back from injury
- playing through an injury

Sometimes, he occupies more than one of these conditions at the same time, that's why his nickname in camp is Schrodinger.

Keeping in mind Sexton (like O'Brien) hasn't featured since Wasps, Byrne could be there because there's a risk of Jonny going down. If everyone was 100%, you'd think that Carbery as cover and Isa as emergency cover would be plenty.

Sexton and Carbery both on the pitch is as much about having your best players in the starting 15 as it is about anything else.

AdamD

durthacht wrote: »

I wonder does this imply a lack of confidence in Carbery at 10? Including Ross Byrne means there are three fly halfs in the squad, which seems one to many with people like Adam Byrne (if fit) and ROL doing so well and bringing much needed pace but not making the squad.

I wonder if this indicates the coaches doubt Carbery as a fly half, that they rate Ross Byrne higher than Carbery, or that they see Carbery as a full back long term instead of fly half.

Or maybe they're just thinking short term only for this game and want an alternative to a positional change at both full back and fly half during the game.

I'm a little confused about three fly halfs, no pace in the back three, and no place for ROL or Adam Byrne (if fit).

Any ideas?

Carberry has started ahead of Ross Byrne all season. I highly highly doubt this. Reading way too much into that selection.

.ak

Adam Byrne mustn't be 100%, or else they've brought the wrong Byrne.

stephen_n

AdamD wrote: »

Carberry has started ahead of Ross Byrne all season. I highly highly doubt this. Reading way too much into that selection.

That's not the case at all, apart from the Ospreys game, Byrne has started at 10 ahead of Carberry in nearly every game they have both been fit for.

There must be serious concerns over Sexton if Byrne is on the bench. We could survive without SOB and Jamie given how good the replacements are, but if Sexton goes early we are goosed.

Buer

shuffol wrote: »

Are we missing a trick not having Byrne up against Abendanon. Has a good advantage in size though Abendanon is a fine player in his own right.

Abendanon is a very silky runner and, given he has played so much at full back, is completely comfortable under the high ball where Byrne usually brings a real impact.

Not surprised at McFadden getting the start. Little surprised at Byrne being left out entirely though.

AdamD

stephen_n wrote: »

That's not the case at all, apart from the Ospreys game, Byrne has started at 10 ahead of Carberry in nearly every game they have both been fit for.

There must be serious concerns over Sexton if Byrne is on the bench. We could survive without SOB and Jamie given how good the replacements are, but if Sexton goes early we are goosed.

All of the games at the start of the season where Carbery played 10.

stephen_n

AdamD wrote: »

All of the games at the start of the season where Carbery played 10.

Byrne was injured at the start of the season wasn't he.

stephen_n

stephen_n wrote: »

Byrne was injured at the start of the season wasn't he.

Think Marsh was, maybe both but think it was just Marsh.

stephen_n

Deleted User wrote: »

Think Marsh was, maybe both but think it was just Marsh.

Marsh was fit till around October IIRC but Byrne wasn't back till around then, can't remember for definite though.

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Think Marsh was, maybe both but think it was just Marsh.

Marsh was available for the first month. Byrne didn't feature in the opening part of the season due to a foot injury.

CMOTDibbler

stephen_n wrote: »

There must be serious concerns over Sexton if Byrne is on the bench. We could survive without SOB and Jamie given how good the replacements are, but if Sexton goes early we are goosed.

I don't follow this logic really.

What other alternatives do we have to Carbery at full back? Kirchner? Nacewa? Both are in the 23 anyway.

irishbucsfan

If Sexton goes we are goosed. Doesn't matter who we try to move around to replace him.

stephen_n

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't follow this logic really.

What other alternatives do we have to Carbery at full back? Kirchner? Nacewa? Both are in the 23 anyway.

Byrne only covers 10, we went without specific cover for 10 in the Wasps game, allowing for another utility back on the bench. Which bit are you not following? Either Joey or Sexton is not expected to last the match and of those two the more obvious assumption is Sexton.

CMOTDibbler

stephen_n wrote: »

Byrne only covers 10, we went without specific cover for 10 in the Wasps game, allowing for another utility back on the bench. Which bit are you not following? Either Joey or Sexton is not expected to last the match and of those two the more obvious assumption is Sexton.

It's not the only interpretation. Having no bench option at ten is always a risk. It worked out against Wasps, but it's not something we do as a general rule and I don't remember us ever doing it in an away game.

Former Former

Both squads have six survivors each from the 2012 semi-final:

Rougerie, Parra, Zirakashvili, Kayser, Lapandry, Radoslavjevic
and
Nacewa, Sexton, Strauss, Cronin, Toner, McFadden.

Quint2010

Sexton has not played since the Wasps game. Cant believe hes injured again?

durthacht

Quint2010 wrote: »

Sexton has not played since the Wasps game. Cant believe hes injured again?

Has he not just been rested in recent weeks? I imagine he has a very specific fitness programme with lots of rest and recovery.

brocbrocach

Former Former wrote: »

that's why his nickname in camp is Schrodinger.

Jays, you wouldn't get that in Munster...

thomond2006

Quint2010 wrote: »

Sexton has not played since the Wasps game. Cant believe hes injured again?

durthacht wrote: »

Has he not just been rested in recent weeks? I imagine he has a very specific fitness programme with lots of rest and recovery.

It's probably done with the Lions in mind. He's going to have a big workload on that tour. If Leinster win on Sunday then Sexton could also be needed to play three consecutive weeks: ERCC Final, Pro12 SF and Pro12 Final.

whatawaster

If Sexton goes off injured early, I would think (and hope) that Zane would come in and Carbery would move to 10.

He's just a much better player than Byrne in almost every facet of the game. McFadden or Isa can take over the kicking.

.ak

Former Former wrote: »

Both squads have six survivors each from the 2012 semi-final:

Rougerie, Parra, Zirakashvili, Kayser, Lapandry, Radoslavjevic
and
Nacewa, Sexton, Strauss, Cronin, Toner, McFadden.

They have a lot more letters tho, let's hope that's not the difference.

CMOTDibbler

whatawaster wrote: »

If Sexton goes off injured early, I would think (and hope) that Zane would come in and Carbery would move to 10.

He's just a much better player than Byrne in almost every facet of the game. McFadden or Isa can take over the kicking.

You can't have unused subs on the bench in a game like this. Especially if the starting player iin the same position goes off injured. Why bother have him there if you're not going to use him?

Having said that, I doubt we'll see Byrne take the field if the game is still in the balance and Sexton is OK.

durthacht

whatawaster wrote: »

If Sexton goes off injured early, I would think (and hope) that Zane would come in and Carbery would move to 10.

He's just a much better player than Byrne in almost every facet of the game. McFadden or Isa can take over the kicking.

Ah I very much doubt that. Byrne has been selected ahead of Carbery in their preferred position in almost every game where they have both been fit since the end of October.

I imagine the coaches would prefer a straight swap if that option is available, rather than positional changes and reorganization of the back-line.

These boards rate Carbery in a different league alright and that's fair enough, but it's noticeable how often when Carbery is mentioned to Cullen in interviews that he immediately introduces Byrne into the conversation. The coaches seem to value Byrne pretty much as highly as Carbery.

I'm increasingly convinced they see both as long term as first teamers, with Byrne as the specialist fly half and Carbery at full back just because he's a more versatile player. I don't see any reason to think the coaches think Carbery a much better player than Byrne.

Kevski

Quint2010 wrote: »

Sexton has not played since the Wasps game. Cant believe hes injured again?

Ringrose hasn't played since then either. I'd say it's been done to ensure that he definitely is fit for Sunday, rather than because he's had an injury.

chris85

Ulster V Leinster on 6th May. Anyone have tickets for sale for a good boardsie? That weekend has become free for me but game sold out.

whatawaster

durthacht wrote: »

Ah I very much doubt that. Byrne has been selected ahead of Carbery in their preferred position in almost every game where they have both been fit since the end of October.

I imagine the coaches would prefer a straight swap if that option is available, rather than positional changes and reorganization of the back-line.

These boards rate Carbery in a different league alright and that's fair enough, but it's noticeable how often when Carbery is mentioned to Cullen in interviews that he immediately introduces Byrne into the conversation. The coaches seem to value Byrne pretty much as highly as Carbery.

I'm increasingly convinced they see both as long term as first teamers, with Byrne as the specialist fly half and Carbery at full back just because he's a more versatile player. I don't see any reason to think the coaches think Carbery a much better player than Byrne.

Carbery is comfortable in other positions, I see that as the reason why Byrne has often been selected at 10 with Carbery elsewhere.

It's hardly just Boards who rate Carbery that highly. He has 3 Ireland caps and was part of the squad during the 6 nations. He is a certainty to tour Japan in the summer as #2 out-half and was even mentioned (not just on boards) as a potential Lions bolter. (He was 3/1 with bookies to be picked)

Byrne is a good young player, but Carbery is just far better.

vienne86

whatawaster wrote: »

Carbery is comfortable in other positions, I see that as the reason why Byrne has often been selected at 10 with Carbery elsewhere.

It's hardly just Boards who rate Carbery that highly. He has 3 Ireland caps and was part of the squad during the 6 nations. He is a certainty to tour Japan in the summer as #2 out-half and was even mentioned (not just on boards) as a potential Lions bolter. (He was 3/1 with bookies to be picked)

Byrne is a good young player, but Carbery is just far better.

Carbery is indeed very good, though on his last couple of outings I felt he was trying just a bit too hard......maybe it was just me.

CMOTDibbler

vienne86 wrote: »

Carbery is indeed very good, though on his last couple of outings I felt he was trying just a bit too hard......maybe it was just me.

Were you actually trying a bit too hard?

That's impressive support right there

durthacht

whatawaster wrote: »

Carbery is comfortable in other positions, I see that as the reason why Byrne has often been selected at 10 with Carbery elsewhere.

It's hardly just Boards who rate Carbery that highly. He has 3 Ireland caps and was part of the squad during the 6 nations. He is a certainty to tour Japan in the summer as #2 out-half and was even mentioned (not just on boards) as a potential Lions bolter. (He was 3/1 with bookies to be picked)

Byrne is a good young player, but Carbery is just far better.

I'm not having a dig at boards people. Apologies if it read like that.

vienne86 wrote: »

Carbery is indeed very good, though on his last couple of outings I felt he was trying just a bit too hard......maybe it was just me.

Don't think it's just you. During the Ospreys-Leinster match the commentators remarked they thought Leinster looked much more controlled and structured when Byrne replaced Carbery at 10.

I just find this fascinating and I think it's the dilemma we've seen before with a choice between a fly half who is supremely talented and creative or controlled and pragmatic - Gopperth-Madigan; Mehrtens-Spencer; Barnes-Andrew; Ward-Campbell.

Fans usually seem to prefer the creative option (Madigan, Spencer, Barnes, Ward, [Carbery?]) while coaches usually prefer the guy who controls the game better (Gopperth, Mehrtens, Andrew, Campbell, [Byrne?]). I love watching the dilemma between different styles unfold.

My own view is I think it's too early to make a call on Carbery-Byrne. I've no idea who will be the better player in time, but I do think Byrne is a little under-rated right now relative to Carbery on these boards.

stephen_n

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's not the only interpretation. Having no bench option at ten is always a risk. It worked out against Wasps, but it's not something we do as a general rule and I don't remember us ever doing it in an away game.

We didn't have Carberry playing fullback before. I think and I could be wrong, that we started with Goperth and Madigan on the field with no 10 cover on the bench. Can't remember if it was home or away though. Carberry going to 10 and Kirchner to 15 would be perfectly fine, unless there is an injury risk with either Sexton or Carberry.

AdamD

durthacht wrote: »

I'm not having a dig at boards people. Apologies if it read like that.



Don't think it's just you. During the Ospreys-Leinster match the commentators remarked they thought Leinster looked much more controlled and structured when Byrne replaced Carbery at 10.

I just find this fascinating and I think it's the dilemma we've seen before with a choice between a fly half who is supremely talented and creative or controlled and pragmatic - Gopperth-Madigan; Mehrtens-Spencer; Barnes-Andrew; Ward-Campbell.

Fans usually seem to prefer the creative option (Madigan, Spencer, Barnes, Ward, [Carbery?]) while coaches usually prefer the guy who controls the game better (Gopperth, Mehrtens, Andrew, Campbell, [Byrne?]). I love watching the dilemma between different styles unfold.

My own view is I think it's too early to make a call on Carbery-Byrne. I've no idea who will be the better player in time, but I do think Byrne is a little under-rated right now relative to Carbery on these boards.

People are also making a giant assumption that because Carbery is flashy that he has no control, which I don't think is the case. His tactical kicking has been quite good.

Bazzo

The national coaches seem to prefer Carbery. He was also man of the match against Wasps in Leinster's last European game.

Just the opinion of an outsider looking in(from a provincial point of view): they're both big young talents and who knows where they'll end up but right now it seems to me like Carbery is the superior player.

Former Former

There's no question that Carbery is the better rugby player.

Whether he's the better out half is slightly more debatable.

Buer

AdamD wrote: »

People are also making a giant assumption that because Carbery is flashy that he has no control, which I don't think is the case. His tactical kicking has been quite good.

Yup, I think he's quite a solid kicker from hand. In terms of his outhalf play, I'd have reservations with his decision making when taking the ball to the line. He has a cut far too often himself and needs to learn when and how to use that footwork and pace.

I'd like to see him bring others in to play and put others into space a bit more. Very hard for him to do as he is getting so little game time at 10. For context, Carbery has 9 professional starts as an outhalf. In one of those, he went off injured after 10 minutes and in another he was moved to 15 after 30 minutes.

He'll be a great player for us but he won't be a great outhalf until he actually gets to play there regularly. He could end up being a victim of his versatility though and sit in the Irish 23 due to his ability to cover other positions when he'd be better off getting all those November and February/March appearances at 10 that Ross Byrne has enjoyed this season.

durthacht

Former Former wrote: »

There's no question that Carbery is the better rugby player.

Whether he's the better out half is slightly more debatable.

Yeah I think that's it exactly. I think Carbery has a higher skill set which allows him to be more versatile. Byrne probably has a narrower skill set.

But who will achieve more in their career is an interesting question and not at all clear cut in my opinion.

Stan27

Is leavy a 6 or 7 long term.

shuffol

Carbery's kick off the left peg against Castres was one of the best tactical kicks I've seen this season. He has the tactician parts of the game in his locker IMO. I don't think he's hit the heights at 10 that he did at the start of the season though, certainly his first game back after his layoff he was trying too hard to impress. Looked a lot more restrained against Ospreys though.