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NASRPC EGM (See post #19)

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    #32
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Whatever way you dress up this new constitution, it's taking away power from ordinary shooters and putting it in the hands of a select few. That won't be good for the sport in the long run.

    Gleefulprinter, do you honestly think that is a good idea?


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    #33
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    Yes I do think it is a good idea because no one has said anything to the contrary. People are so concerned about the ordinary shooter but no one is saying how they are affected. I asked the question earlier:

    Do the clubs all pay equal membership?
    If the clubs pay equal membership to the NASRPC then it is only fair that they get the same number of votes.
    If they are paying membership fees based on the number of club members then it should be weighted.

    No one answered it. Until someone says why it is a bad thing with some proof then what is wrong with it?
    Also I don't think this has anything to do with a select few controlling. Each club could vote on issues before the meeting and tell that person how the club is to vote. It is the club's vote not the person.


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    #34
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Yes I do think it is a good idea because no one has said anything to the contrary.

    I'm saying it's a bad idea. I think that is contrary to your view.


    People are so concerned about the ordinary shooter but no one is saying how they are affected.

    The way things stand, I have a vote. You also have a vote.

    If this constitution goes through, neither of us have a vote. That's how ordinary shooters are affected.


    No one answered it. Until someone says why it is a bad thing with some proof then what is wrong with it?

    Are you honestly saying that it is a good thing for you to have your power to vote removed from you? Seriously???


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    #35
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    Ok again what proof do you have.
    all you have said is I think this and that is it so it must be true.

    Could you answer this:
    Do the clubs all pay equal membership?


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    #36
    clivej
    Registered Users Posts: 7,057 ✭✭✭clivej


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Ok again what proof do you have.
    all you have said is I think this and that is it so it must be true.

    Could you answer this:
    Do the clubs all pay equal membership?

    YES look in the constitution it's €200 per club. As has been for the last 2 years

    And in the new proposed constitution on page 18.


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    #37
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    Ok. Then why shouldn't it be equal votes if they are paying the same?


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    #38
    Valhalla18
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭Valhalla18


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Ok again what proof do you have.
    all you have said is I think this and that is it so it must be true.

    Could you answer this:
    Do the clubs all pay equal membership?

    What proof do you need . What proof would be good enough for you. None as far as I am concerned. You are so entrenched in your own opinion It makes no difference what the rest of us say.


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    #39
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    Valhalla18 wrote: »
    What proof do you need . What proof would be good enough for you. None as far as I am concerned. You are so entrenched in your own opinion It makes no difference what the rest of us say.

    maybe you should think of the things you want to say first and make sure there is some substance to them before pressing enter.

    All you are saying is I think this and therefore it is true because I said it.


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    #40
    clivej
    Registered Users Posts: 7,057 ✭✭✭clivej


    At last years AGM I was able to submit proposals to be voted on at the AGM. I stood up and spoke about my reasons for my proposals.

    With this new constitution I won't be able to make any direct proposals,only through my club IF they agree with my proposal. That right is now being taken away from me within this new constitution. Not good IMO.

    IMO the main amendments as submitted are not in the best interests of the Gallery shooting community. What little say YOU and I had will be taken from us.

    I just hope that the national clubs affiliated to the NASRPC inform their members about all this and get their members to vote on how their club should vote at the EGM.


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    #41
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Ok again what proof do you have.
    all you have said is I think this and that is it so it must be true.

    Could you answer this:
    Do the clubs all pay equal membership?

    What proof do I have? It says in the new constitution that it will only be clubs allowed to vote. Written down in black and white. Have you read it?

    Do you vote in a general election? Or would you be happy enough for somebody else to decide your vote for you? Because that's what is proposed here.

    Do all clubs pay the same affiliation? I'd hope so. They should all pay the same.

    But I still think it should be one person, one vote. Anything else isn't fair.

    Democracy is one person, one vote.


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    #42
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    Isn't the NASRPC an association of clubs not individuals? Why would individuals be allowed vote then?


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    #43
    Rimfire Shooter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭Rimfire Shooter


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Isn't the NASRPC an association of clubs not individuals? Why would individuals be allowed vote then?

    The NASRPC wouldn't want to forget that without those individuals there will be no NASRPC !


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    #44
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Isn't the NASRPC an association of clubs not individuals? Why would individuals be allowed vote then?

    FFS. Lads, it's like talking to a wall.

    We are currently allowed to vote at the AGM, and have been for as long as I'm involved in shooting. The current NASRPC committee were voted in by individuals at last year's AGM, not clubs, but individuals.


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    #45
    clivej
    Registered Users Posts: 7,057 ✭✭✭clivej


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Ok. Then why shouldn't it be equal votes if they are paying the same?

    Right now you Gleefulprinter you have a vote at the AGM on whatever is spoken about and every time a vote is called for.

    As items are discussed peoples minds will be made 'For or Against' whatever is on the agenda. At the present time YOU can make a decision on the night and vote.
    With only a clubs representative to vote do all the attending clubs members all go off and vote on the item and then tell their clubs rep to vote that way???

    Well it's not the way I would like it to go.


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    #46
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    clivej wrote: »
    With only a clubs representative to vote do all the attending clubs members all go off and vote on the item and then tell their clubs rep to vote that way???

    Even if the attending club members did tell their 'club representative' what way to vote, there's no obligation on him/her to follow that direction.


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    #47
    xesse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 204 ✭✭xesse


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Isn't the NASRPC an association of clubs not individuals? Why would individuals be allowed vote then?
    If individuals voted in this standing committee why do you think it is strange the same individuals would want to vote on this EGM that wants to introduce a motion to remove the voting power of the individual shooter????
    If we cant vote on the EGM them there would be a case for saying the committee were illegally elected.


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    #48
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    FFS. Lads, it's like talking to a wall.

    We are currently allowed to vote at the AGM, and have been for as long as I'm involved in shooting. The current NASRPC committee were voted in by individuals at last year's AGM, not clubs, but individuals.

    Who suggested otherwise? What wall?
    I am talking about the new constitution.

    Just because something was done with previous committees doesn't mean it was the correct thing. A lot of people here seem butt hurt that they are going to have the same say as everyone else. A say through their committees. A vote for each club to make things fair in an association for clubs not an association of egos and individuals.


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    #49
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Who suggested otherwise? What wall?
    I am talking about the new constitution.

    Just because something was done with previous committees doesn't mean it was the correct thing. A lot of people here seem butt hurt that they are going to have the same say as everyone else. A say through their committees. A vote for each club to make things fair in an association for clubs not an association of egos and individuals.

    I'm getting tired of this crap.

    Only an idiot would think that having their vote removed is a good thing.

    Nothing to do with egos. Just to do with democracy and one person, one vote.


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    #50
    Wadi14
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Isn't the NASRPC an association of clubs not individuals? Why would individuals be allowed vote then?

    I think we all agree that NASRPC is club based, but with this change I believe they will loss the respect of some members, funny when I write that I think of individuals, not clubs.

    NASRPC cant have it both ways, it cant say its club based but on the same document say it wants to discipline individuals, if its club based is it not clubs it discipline's ?
    Disciplinary Proceedings Should the Secretary of the Association receive a formal written complaint regarding a member, or an individual, the following disciplinary procedures shall be followed.

    You cant use the club based card and expect all individuals to be happy, when the constitution reaches as far as individuals.


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    #51
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I'm getting tired of this crap.

    Only an idiot would think that having their vote removed is a good thing.

    Nothing to do with egos. Just to do with democracy and one person, one vote.

    Tut tut BattleCorp. You shouldn't swear so close to Christmas- Santy will bring you coal!

    It is an association of clubs where club members vote. How does that make sense?


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    #52
    Tackleberry.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭Tackleberry.


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Even if the attending club members did tell their 'club representative' what way to vote, there's no obligation on him/her to follow that direction.
    I don't agree with this veiw, If your an active shooter within your club you should be able to have constructive meetings within your club so that your club is clear on what direction you are going in, also you should elect your representatives or it should be a club committee member etc. To say that your Rep is not obligated is true but wouldn't he be the bigger fool to go against his own club..


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    #53
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    Wadi14 wrote: »
    I think we all agree that NASRPC is club based, but with this change I believe they will loss the respect of some members, funny when I write that I think of individuals, not clubs.

    NASRPC cant have it both ways, it cant say its club based but on the same document say it wants to discipline individuals, if its club based is it not clubs it discipline's ?
    Disciplinary Proceedings Should the Secretary of the Association receive a formal written complaint regarding a member, or an individual, the following disciplinary procedures shall be followed.

    You cant use the club based card and expect all individuals to be happy, when the constitution reaches as far as individuals.

    Genuinely thank you for the first coherent response.

    I think they have blurred the line between club and individual and I agree with some of it. But there has to be something said about the individual on the line needing to be seen as an individual. There has to be some disciplinary measure.
    The email before about people being disciplined for spreading rumours and not supporting NASRPC was ridiculous and far reaching.


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    #54
    BillBen
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭BillBen


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Tut tut BattleCorp. You shouldn't swear so close to Christmas- Santy will bring you coal!

    It is an association of clubs where club members vote. How does that make sense?

    Seems to me your just trolling


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    #55
    Gleefulprinter
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭Gleefulprinter


    BillBen wrote: »
    Seems to me your just trolling

    Congratulations for finding me out.

    Can you deal with the issue now or have you run out of steam?


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    #56
    BillBen
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭BillBen


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Congratulations for finding me out.

    Can you deal with the issue now or have you run out of steam?

    I won't say what I really want. Don't want santa to bring me coal


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    #57
    Wadi14
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    Gleefulprinter wrote: »
    Genuinely thank you for the first coherent response.

    I think they have blurred the line between club and individual and I agree with some of it.

    I agree with you, but IMO they need to tread very lightly , the club card cant be used to the detriment of the individual, or you may send them off looking for a group that say they look after the welfare of the shooter, not the club


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    #58
    Tackleberry.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭Tackleberry.


    We all know why this is happening, the small clubs feel like they are losing out to the bigger clubs so much so that it caused the Rent Mob at the last AGM, if the smaller clubs didn't feel as if they where getting nowhere in the past well then there would of been none of what happened last year, some of the individual voting is unfair where the big clubs get there way all of the time.
    I can and I'm sure all of ye can see the thinking behind the one club one vote and where it will work but I also value my individual vote on other matters as well, a balance needs to be met where all clubs are treated equally.. I believe this is only an attempt at that and not a power move...but the GRPAI guys are blinkered..


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    #59
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Tackleberry. wrote: »
    We all know why this is happening, the small clubs feel like they are losing out to the bigger clubs so much so that it caused the Rent Mob at the last AGM, if the smaller clubs didn't feel as if they where getting nowhere in the past well then there would of been none of what happened last year, some of the individual voting is unfair where the big clubs get there way all of the time.

    I can and I'm sure all of ye can see the thinking behind the one club one vote and where it will work but I also value my individual vote on other matters as well, a balance needs to be met where all clubs are treated equally.. I believe this is only an attempt at that and not a power move...but the GRPAI guys are blinkered..

    Tack, you would be giving up your vote along with everyone else. That isn't a balance.

    That's taking away your say in how things are run.

    If the current NASRPC committee are running things right, giving smaller clubs their say, then there is no need for this change.


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    #60
    homerhop
    Registered Users Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭homerhop


    The constitution as it stands at the moment.

    "Amendments to the Constitution
    Amendments to the Constitution of the NASRPC shall be agreed only at an Annual General Meeting.
    Any motion to amend the Constitution shall be proposed and seconded by two member Clubs or the Committee of the NASRPC and submitted in writing to the Secretary at least 21 days before the date of the General Meeting. In the event of such a motion being submitted, the Secretary shall, not less than 14 days before a General Meeting, circulate the motion along with the agenda of the General Meeting to the membership of the NASRPC.
    Amendments to the Constitution shall be decided by a two-thirds majority of those present and voting at an Annual General Meeting."

    Why the rush to bull this new one through before the agm by a select few in an egm. Why not wait till the agm and let everyone there have their say. If it is worthwhile and put forward in a reasonable manner it would more than likely succeed.


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    #61
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,788 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Authority

    The ultimate authority within the Association shall be the members assembled in the Annual or Extraordinary General Meeting.

    The affiliated clubs shall entrust the management of the Association to the elected representatives.

    http://nasrpc.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/NASRPC-Constitution-16.01.16.pdf



    The above is an extract from the current NASRPC Constitution as posted on the NASRPC website.

    This would lead me to believe that it isn't one club/one vote at the EGM. The voting procedure appears to be the same as at the AGM.

    If the authority at the last AGM was the members of the floor (who elected the current committee), then it's the same for the EGM.

    Whoever goes to the EGM gets a vote if they are a bona fide member of an affiliated club.


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