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tenant leaves - keep deposit

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  • 21-12-2016 6:03pm
    #1
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭


    A family member is landlord for students and she has just been informed that one of the tenants is moving out and has supposedly found someone a replacement.

    They were informed today with the next rent due on the first of Janurary.

    The group took the house as a unit not on a by room basis. No written lease as such but the group all signed a single page document with rental term and amount of rent per month written and the basic details of the agreement.

    I have a few questions.

    1) As the tenant gave very little notice can the landlord keep the tenant's deposit even if they are replaced?

    2) As they took the house as a unit at an agreeed amount per month and they split the rent in a way to suit them. Are the remaining tenants liable for any short fall in each month?

    3) If the remaining tenants refuse to cover the short fall can the landlord keep all of their deposits when the remaining tenants move out at the end of the agreed term to some what cover the lost rent ?


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    #2
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    Is it a fixed term lease?

    If so,

    1) Yes

    2) Yes

    3) Yes


    (As far as I know)


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    #3
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »
    Is it a fixed term lease?

    If so,

    1) Yes

    2) Yes

    3) Yes


    (As far as I know)


    As far as I'm aware it was not a full detailed lease, it was just one sheet of paper with with the basic details that each of the signed their own details agreeing to the above terms


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    #4
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    In that case, I'm unsure as to the legalities, although you may need to find out how long the tenants are there before getting any more clarity.


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    #5
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »
    In that case, I'm unsure as to the legalities, although you may need to find out how long the tenants are there before getting any more clarity.

    They are students so the agreed term was the academic year only and were new from tenants for this academic year.


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    #6
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    siobhan08 wrote: »
    I have a few questions.

    1) As the tenant gave very little notice can the landlord keep the tenant's deposit even if they are replaced?

    On what basis would a landlord try to justify retention of the deposit? Assuming there is no damage and no loss of rent.

    Assuming the landlord is registered with the RTB (and there's nothing to suggest they shouldn't be). I would expect retention of the deposit to result in the rapid lodgement of a complaint by the outgoing tenant.


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    #7
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    Graham wrote: »
    On what basis would a landlord try to justify retention of the deposit? Assuming there is no damage and no loss of rent.

    Assuming the landlord is registered with the RTB (and there's nothing to suggest they shouldn't be). I would expect retention of the deposit to result in the rapid lodgement of a complaint by the outgoing tenant.

    There will be a loss of rent, due to less than 28 days notice being given as required.


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    #8
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    Graham wrote: »
    On what basis would a landlord try to justify retention of the deposit? Assuming there is no damage and no loss of rent.

    lack of sufficent notice informing the landlord they were moving out. landlord lives at the opposition end of the country so making the journey to check the house is not exactly a priority this time of year.

    the tenant signed an agreement to stay for the acdemic year and has left before the agreeed time

    I was in a similar situation when at college, I moved out of a house early, landlord got someone else in but still took my deposit


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    #9
    Turkish1
    Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Turkish1


    Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »
    Is it a fixed term lease?

    If so,

    1) Yes

    2) Yes

    3) Yes


    (As far as I know)

    Are the tenancies registered with the RTB as one tenancy or three (or at all?)

    1) If they have found a replacement (that the landlord is happy with) on what grounds would you believe they already entitled to keep the deposit? Assuming there is no void period - you would have no shortfall to cover and no reason to withhold a deposit.

    2) sounds like they are liable for the full rent if it was one agreement and they split as they see fit but will depend on the specifics of the case

    3) - see 1 above. If there is no loss as the tenant is replaced you would not be entitled to keep any of the deposit as you suffered no loss.

    I'm not sure how it would work if you refused the potential new tenant, tenants may have some comeback if they appealed to the RTB based on the landlord not mitigating their losses - but that is pure speculation on my part.


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    #10
    SteM
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭SteM


    Any landlord that can't be arsed printing the standard lease (that almost everyone uses) and getting her tenants to sign it deserves any hassle she gets.


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    #11
    brendane
    Registered Users Posts: 41 ✭brendane


    Did you say that the tennant moving out has found a replacement to take up his spot in the house? If so, nothing should change


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    #12
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »
    There will be a loss of rent, due to less than 28 days notice being given as required.

    Missed that bit.

    Assuming this will be considered a joint tenancy between all the parties involved.

    As the joint tenancy is not ending, the issue of returning a deposit should not arise for the landlord.
    As the rent for the joint tenancy is spread across the group I would make the entire group know they are jointly responsible for the full rent every month.

    Essentially, let the group know it's their issue, not yours but you reserve the right to vet any changes to the names tenants.

    As others have suggested, it's well worth getting a proper lease/tenancy agreement in place.


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    #13
    Turkish1
    Registered Users Posts: 273 ✭✭Turkish1


    Stevie Beautiful Pun wrote: »
    There will be a loss of rent, due to less than 28 days notice being given as required.

    Are you just assuming that? If they have a replacement tenant for the same day as tenant leaving there would be no loss whatsoever. Regardless of if the notice was 1 day or 28days or 128days.


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    #14
    eurokev
    Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭eurokev


    The student found a replacement, give him/her their deposit back.


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    #15
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    Not assuming anything, just working with what OP has given us. :)

    EDIT: Missed end of first sentence!


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    #16
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    Graham wrote: »
    Missed that bit.

    Assuming this will be considered a joint tenancy between all the parties involved.

    As the joint tenancy is not ending, the issue of returning a deposit should not arise for the landlord.
    As the rent for the joint tenancy is spread across the group I would make the entire group know they are jointly responsible for the full rent every month.

    Essentially, let the group know it's their issue, not yours.

    Yes the landland was informed this evening that they were moving out so only gave 11 days notice. Next rent is due on the 1st of Jan.
    The tenants gave the deposit individually but they were informed of the monthly rent and the split it how they saw fit. As far as I know they split it based on the size of the rooms


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    #17
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    eurokev wrote: »
    The student found a replacement, give him/her their deposit back.

    I wouldn't go near that unless the OP wants to be playing Nanny for the duration of the tenancy.

    If the OP is ok with the replacement tenant, the replacement tenants deposit could go to the original tenant without the landlords involvement.


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    #18
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,960 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    eurokev wrote: »
    The student found a replacement, give him/her their deposit back.

    +1

    And its Christmas, stop being an ass.


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    #19
    SteM
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭SteM


    siobhan08 wrote: »
    Yes the landland was informed this evening that they were moving out so only gave 11 days notice. Next rent is due on the 1st of Jan.
    The tenants gave the deposit individually but they were informed of the monthly rent and the split it how they saw fit. As far as I know they split it based on the size of the rooms

    So the tenant is paid up to 1st January, there's someone moving in then and going g to start paying straight away? Is that correct?


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    #20
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    +1

    And its Christmas, stop being an ass.

    The student left before the agreed time and gave hardly any notice giving the landlord no chance to approve the potentially new tenant or check for any damages


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    #21
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    SteM wrote: »
    So the tenant is paid up to 1st January, there's someone moving in then and going g to start paying straight away? Is that correct?

    From what I can gather yes but no details of the potential new tenant were passed on so landland has had no contact with them so as it stands they don't if they new tenant will definitly be moving in.


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    #22
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    siobhan08 wrote: »
    The student left before the agreed time and gave hardly any notice giving the landlord no chance to approve the potentially new tenant or check for any damages

    Again I'm assuming this is a joint tenancy, in which case I just wouldn't get involved.

    The tenancy is not ending so there is no case for returning the deposit. The rent has not changed so the group need to sort out the rent between themselves.

    If there's a replacement tenant, they need to submit the details for your approval they can make their own arrangements for new tenant covering deposit for old tenant.

    It's probably occurred to you already but this would be much easier if it were all agreed at the start of the tenancy.


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    #23
    SteM
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭SteM


    siobhan08 wrote: »
    The student left before the agreed time and gave hardly any notice giving the landlord no chance to approve the potentially new tenant or check for any damages

    If there's no rent missed and there's no damage done then give the tenant back their deposit ffs.
    Your friend should be more interested in getting a proper lease in order and managing their incredibly valuable asset than worrying about a few hundred euro deposit imo.


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    #24
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    Graham wrote: »
    Again I'm assuming this is a joint tenancy, in which case I just wouldn't get involved.

    The tenancy is not ending so there is no case for returning the deposit. The rent has not changed so the group need to sort out the rent between themselves.

    If there's a replacement tenant, they need to submit the details for your approval they can make their own arrangements for new tenant covering deposit for old tenant.

    so basically if the new tenant does move in, they should give their deposit to the outgoing tenant and the deposit that they landlord has would then become the new tenants. would that be right?


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    #25
    SteM
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭SteM


    siobhan08 wrote: »
    From what I can gather yes but no details of the potential new tenant were passed on so landland has had no contact with them so as it stands they don't if they new tenant will definitly be moving in.

    Well maybe your friend that has an incredibly valuable asset and should be managing it as such should push the subject and find out the facts? Christmas or not I'd be down there to find out what's going on.


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    #26
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    siobhan08 wrote: »
    so basically if the new tenant does move in, they should give their deposit to the outgoing tenant and the deposit that they landlord has would then become the new tenants. would that be right?

    Yup.

    No involvement from landlord other than approving the new tenant. The students sort it out amongst themselves.


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    #27
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    SteM wrote: »
    Well maybe your friend that has an incredibly valuable asset and should be managing it as such should push the subject and find out the facts? Christmas or not I'd be down there to find out what's going on.

    be a bit difficult now the the college has finished for christmas and the tenants have no returned home to different parts of the country for christmas


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    #28
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,034 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    siobhan08 wrote: »
    The group took the house as a unit not on a by room basis. .
    What do you mean by this? Was this 'joint and several liability' clear in the agreement?
    siobhan08 wrote: »
     No written lease as such but the group all signed a single page document with rental term and amount of rent per month written and the basic details of the agreement.
    Did this lease document that they signed say anything about early termination? Or about duration of the agreement?


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    #29
    Guffy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,086 ✭✭✭Guffy


    If the student got a replacement, just let them get the deposit off the replacememt and everything else goes on as normal, no?


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    #30
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    What do you mean by this? Was this 'joint and several liability' clear in the agreement?

    Rent is for the entire house so it would be hard to interpret otherwise.

    The question does highlight the necessity for a proper legal agreement.
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Did this lease document that they signed say anything about early termination? Or about duration of the agreement?

    How is it being terminated if the other tenants are staying?


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    #31
    siobhan08
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭siobhan08


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    What do you mean by this? Was this 'joint and several liability' clear in the agreement?


    the agreement stated the monthly for the entire house and the tenants agreed to that
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Did this lease document that they signed say anything about early termination? Or about duration of the agreement?
    yes it stated the dates of the agreement


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