People getting upset about mass cards

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831848#Comment_119831848

People give money to the church on a promise of reward in the afterlife. If you believe in the afterlife and the possibility of gaining credit by giving money then it is probably very good value as it makes life more contented. After you are dead you won't really care as either you won't exist, or you will in fact reap the rewards promised. Paying someone to clean your gutters and discovering at the first shower of rain that they hadn't done it does not in any way make your life better.

People love to create illusions for themselves, a person could go out and buy clothes, under the impression that the way they dress will make them more popular, more attractive, etc. Or buy a new face cream under the impression that it will make them beautiful. In my case I buy (or used to) arty-crafty books and gardening books with the sense that they will make me into an artist or a gardener. In all these cases its only very slightly true but it makes the person feel good.

The whole business is down to faith, which you either have, or you do not. Mass cards are part of a faith system, just because you do not believe or approve doesn't make it a scam. They are not part of my belief system, but I can see how they work. No-one is forcing you to buy them, they are not paid for by your taxes, let people engage with them if they wish, it is up to them, if they so wish, to insist that their church monitors and regulates the process.

looksee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831886#Comment_119831886

They don't have to, you really are missing the (somewhat mystical) point.

sporina

my gosh - this thread really shows how people abuse technology... and how miserable some people are..

we are talking about people getting solace and support here.. we are talking about the bereaved and the deceased.. and yet there are folk on here arguing about a very important means of such support and comfort etc.. take a look at yourselves.. have ye nothing better to argue over?

If mass cards don't affect you - then what concern is it to ye....?!

They help some people enormously - can't you respect that? or are ye too narrow minded/hearted?

really reflects how miserable they are.. I feel sorry for them

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831981#Comment_119831981

Yes people love illusions.

But nobody defends a snake oil salesman selling magical ointments from the back of a van. No, they decry him for selling false promises, they consider it a bad thing when he tells a girl with acne that his lotion will cure her skin complaint. She is desperate for a cure so she wants to believe the illusion, but nobody thinks the snake oil salesman is doing a good thing.

Mass cards are the same scam in a different dress but they get defended, where is the logic in that?

Thinkingaboutit

Maccabees and other texts in Scripture make clear the value of praying for the death. Protestants only lack that as the successors of Luther, not Luther, downgraded it, either removing or leaving it as interesting, instructive but not doctrinal texts. St Jerome effectively set the books used and not used under the authority of Pope St Damasus, in the process of translating the OT from Hebrew and NT form Koine Greek, books which Protestants use, some cuts excepted. Some old Mass texts use books that didn't meet the cut for that grumpy saint and polyglot who had limited patience for those he thought unthinking in criticisms they made. Yet summoning up this or that proof or disproof matters very little as the Mass card gives great solace to the grieving person who appreciates the sentiment even when not actively Christian. These specific cards provide a bit of revenue to Indian priests who are not remotely well off. Joe Duffy finds some strange issues given the many problems this country faces.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832343#Comment_119832343

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119831763#Comment_119831763

While not a scam, sending a mass card to a non-religious person does more in support of the sender and their church than the needs of the bereaved. It shows scant respect for beliefs of the bereaved where they might not align well with Catholicism. I would suggest sending them in this context is entirely the wrong thing to do and liable to cause offense.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841615#Comment_119841615

When my father died my mother received in the main, sympathy cards as we are CoI, she also received mass cards from her RC friends. When my mother passed away 20 years later, the same thing happened and I received both sympathy and mass cards. It didn't upset or offend me or my mother to receive mass cards, and I honestly don't think any of my CoI friends or family would be offended either. It would be accepted just like a sympathy card and always appreciated.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841632#Comment_119841632

Fair enough, but CoI and Catholicism are both Christian traditions that share largely similar beliefs surrounding a person's death. For those of us that don't share similar beliefs whatsoever, mass cards aren't really appropriate. When my wife died a few years ago, myself and my kids didn't appreciate them as they displayed an ignorance and lack of respect for the beliefs of our family. Any other time it wouldn't have annoyed me and I'd think of it as 'means well but got it wrong'. While dealing with a particularly crushing loss, mass cards were entirely unwelcome. If you're not sure about a persons religious persuasion or lack thereof, I'd suggest sympathy cards are the better option. More simply perhaps, when reaching out to someone suffering a loss, have a thought for what they're going through and might need rather than using it as an opportunity to display your own piety. I apologise if that sounds very harsh, but that was my reaction to receiving unwanted mass cards.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119832355#Comment_119832355

I don't think mass cards are snake oil, just part of a religious tradition in this country. While I personally have no use for them, I appreciate many within the Catholic community do.

Jellybaby_1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119842442#Comment_119842442

I quite understand. However, religious traditions don't die out quickly in Ireland, they linger. My RC relatives in other countries don't always adhere to the traditions that are still in use here. If someone knew you were non-religious perhaps it was a tad thoughtless but somehow it seems tradition is almost like a knee-jerk reaction in some folk, 'this is what we do, and this is what I will do, because it's what we always do' kind of thing. If they knew your reaction on receiving the mass card, they'd probably be very sorry they had sent it.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841615#Comment_119841615

I disagree. If somebody does something that is meaningful and significant to him, and does it for my sake, to express sympathy and solidarity with me, I really appreciate that gesture, and the thought it represents, even if what he did is not meaningful to me.

I get that when people are grieving and perhaps traumatised, it's hard to know how they will feel about things (or sometimes whether they will feel about them at all). But I wouldn't default to thinking that a mass card sent to a non-Catholic will offend.

smacl

But I wouldn't default to thinking that a mass card sent to a non-Catholic will offend.

If the non-Catholic is someone who has no time for the Catholic church, which could be for a variety of different reason, it might. A sympathy card, or simple note of condolence, certainly wont.

Subzero3

If people want to pay 4 euro for a card good for them.

What's next, Onlyfans get cancelled because it asked big Johnny for a donation to say his name.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119843463#Comment_119843463

I agree entirely, many people in this circumstance feel obliged to do something and look to their own traditions. Nothing really wrong with that in most circumstances but dealing with death of a loved one can be a bit different here. As an atheist family for example, who do not believe in anything that corresponds to an afterlife, being told that your loved one is 'in a better place now' or that they're praying for her, is deeply offensive at a time when you're struggling with the loss on your own terms. Perhaps try to imagine the reverse, that if while grieving, you received a card that implied your loved one was not in fact in Heaven, as the sender did not believe in such a place, you might just take offense. The point I'm making across all these posts, is that if we are contacting someone who is grieving, their sensitivities should take priority over our traditions and beliefs.

looksee

I was inclined to think that smacl was maybe pushing his quite understandable argument a bit too far, but then remembered that when my own baby died - over 40 years ago now, I did not find the many comments on the lines of 'ah, you have your own little angel in heaven now' in any way consoling or helpful. On the other hand it was an automatic response, it was 'what you say' and had nothing to do with consolation of the grieving, just something to say.

In the same way, in a predominantly Catholic society sending a Mass card is what you do, rather than wondering whether it was appropriate. Of course it is appropriate, doesn't everyone send Mass cards?

It is very possible that the sender may not know the religious beliefs of the recipient of the card or the deceased. On the whole, to assume they are at least nominally Catholic is a fair guess.

Many people would not be aware that there is any difference between Mass cards and general sympathy cards, especially if they are themselves only 'default' Catholics. Many people have only a very vague idea about religion of any sort, in the (distant) past I have had people say something along the lines of 'oh, you are not Christian', entirely without malice but surprised and a bit confused, on hearing that I was Protestant. The notion that you could be Christian without being Catholic was a completely new, foreign, and slightly threatening concept.

If the person who has died was Catholic then its entirely appropriate to pray for their soul, and send a Mass card, regardless of the beliefs of those bereaved. If a person is sick or in other trouble then a card for their intentions is appropriate if they are Catholic.

The confusion arises because cards generally have the title 'In Sympathy' which is directed to the bereaved even though the main objective of the card is to have a Mass said for the deceased. It presupposes that the bereaved are always of the same faith as the deceased. The bereaved will probably not find it consoling unless they accept the good will with which it was sent. In bereavement it is not always possible to accept those somewhat thoughtless good intentions.

Meanwhile, the Augustinians, for example, simply sell Mass cards https://augustinians.ie/shop/product-category/full-mass-card/, you can even get masses said perpetually for €12, with the name of the person being remembered offered at 'masses and prayers' of the Augustinians. How this is not simony https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14001a.htm#:~:text=Simony%20is%20usually%20defined%20%22a,for%20temporal%20things%20is%20simoniacal. is very debateable, but since simony only matters to those within the Church, it is not really all that appropriate for those who are not Catholics to get upset about it.

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841615#Comment_119841615

as I said in a previous post..

"But if i am sending a card, whether it be a mass card or just a sympathy card - I always think of the people to whom I am sending them to/for.. sometimes I send a mass and sympathy card.. ie: one for the deceased (if known that they wer religious) and a sympathy card for the bereaved (if they are not particularly religious).. it depends.."

another note on the important of mass cards.. where I am from and in my family, mass cards have another significance whereby we send memorial cards of the deceased to those from whom we received a mass card.. but I don't exclude sympathy cards from this.. (moving with the times etc)..

its all part of the grieving process..

Personally I would never send anybody a mass card unless I knew they were still a practising Catholic.

Even then, my preference is to send a sympathy card. It's hard to offend with a generic sympathy card.

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845165#Comment_119845165

but what if the deceased was a practicing catholic? regardless of the religious orientation of the receiver,..?

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845826#Comment_119845826

In the above case, I think sending a mass card is entirely reasonable and to be expected from the deceased's religious friends and family. That said, given you're sending the card to the bereaved, you might want to ask yourself would they prefer a simple sympathy card.

elperello

Perhaps if the funeral includes mass in a Catholic church that would be a clear indication that mass cards are acceptable.

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846250#Comment_119846250

like I said, i am not religious at all in the trad way - I don't go to mass etc.. but my parent's wer religious.. and I love that people gave us mass cards for them.. the mass is for the deceased.. (to pray that they are resting peacefully etc).. that in turn shows sympathy.. why would you read into it as otherwise?

but like I said, i give mass cards/sympathy cards as appropriate (in my eyes).. according to the individuals.,

if neither the deceased or bereaved wer/are religious, then I would not send a mass card.. obv..

come on, why look for something -ve in something negative in something nice that someone does..?

twud be different if your talking about a person who tries to push religious on others etc..

but I think this thread really shows how some people will always look for the -ve in something..

feck all care where the money goes to - the sending of mass cards and all that it entails provides massive support for people.. that shud be respected

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845826#Comment_119845826

The deceased is never going to know what type of card I send, so I would send a sympathy card.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119842442#Comment_119842442

So the actions of the people who wanted to demonstrate their support for you, but got it wrong, count for nothing, in your book? It's not about the mass card etc... it's about people wanting to support you, if you can't except that then perhaps you should make it very clear to them, I'm sure they'll move on.

smacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846500#Comment_119846500

This isn't really support of someone who is recently bereaved though, it is paying lip service to the issue with more to do with tradition than care. In my opinion, people don't like being reminded of their own mortality, are awkward around death, and feel a need to do something to get over this. Sending a mass card to an atheist is about as welcome as sending a pack of rashers to a vegetarian. Under normal circumstances you might appreciate the thought and laugh it off, when you're at your wits end suffering a severe loss, it feels rather crass. Not taking a dig, just my first hand experience. A note with a few of your own thoughts, or knock on the door or phone call if you're feeling braver, is so much more meaningful than a generic mass card.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119845165#Comment_119845165

The first bit +10000s!

Frankly, if you send an artifact of your own religion to someone who is bereaved, without pausing for a microsecond to consider if it has any meaning to them at all, then you are just being a prosthelytizing a**hole, who needs to take a good dose of Cop On.

looksee

Mod: Mrs OBumble, the discussion has been kept civil, phrases like 'proselytising a**hole', even with asterisks, is not a description that is necessary to express your opinion.

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846433#Comment_119846433

🙈..........

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847611#Comment_119847611

?...

sporina

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847932#Comment_119847932

read my posts