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Airbnb of dedicated rental properties subject to planning permission

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2

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    #32
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Tigger wrote: »
    The people who what to do on demand short term leggings will look for planning change of use
    It will be granted and then they will have to pay commercial rates

    I'm sure there will be quite a few looking for change of use.

    I bet you most won't get it.


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    #33
    Stealthfins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭Stealthfins


    KyussBeeshop wrote:
    I guess ask for proof that your host has planning permission for AirBnB - and if not, report them to the council for putting up an illegal rental.


    Seriously ha ha ha
    Who'd rat someone who's providing a simple service ?

    If I needed a place to stay on a budget, do you think I'd spoil it ?

    Not a hope


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    #34
    liam7831
    Registered Users Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭liam7831


    I think it's great news, if your too tight to get a hotel your best stay at home. Some people heads are wrecked from this crap every weekend from bums having parties cos their too cheap to go to the pub


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    #35
    Grawns
    Registered Users Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Grawns


    Tigger wrote: »
    They're not gonna shut it down
    The people who what to do on demand short term leggings will look for planning change of use
    It will be granted and then they will have to pay commercial rates
    Rates are horrible because you pay them on having a business not on profit

    http://www.taxfind.ie/binaryDocument//pdfs/http___www_revenue_ie_en_about_foi_s16_local_property_tax_part_02_02_02_pdf.pdf
    There are no rates applicable to bed and breakfasts only on establishments with more than 6 rooms.


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    #36
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I guess the sticking point here is how one defines a B&B. The regulations call it a "guest house", but don't provide a concrete definition of what that means.

    The word "guest" implies that there is a permanent resident who controls the lettings. But ultimately someone could carry on AirBnB activities in such a property until a complaint was filed. The planning office would then confirm that you indeed aren't an exempted development and order you to stop the lettings. So the landlord goes back to renting it out as normal and suffers no penalty.

    All ABP would really have to do is set up a tiger team to monitor and review AirBnB lettings, and issuing warnings to people using them as short-term lets rather than guest houses.


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    #37
    _Jamie_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 603 ✭✭✭_Jamie_


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    How?
    Its no different to landlords letting their properties, but only for shorter terms or home owners letting a room out.
    Obviously its a business model that works giving people a broader choice to pick from. Government just needs to work out how to make it all legal and bring the finances into the tax net rather than knee jerk "shut it down" reactions.

    It affects other people living in residential buildings.


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    #38
    April 73
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    Graham wrote: »
    There's a few more tidbits from the examiner:

    Scrambling springs to mind.

    If my experience of enforcement by a local authority is anything to go by I can see nothing happening. Ever.


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    #39
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,080 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Tigger wrote: »
    Rates are horrible because you pay them on having a business not on profit
    Rates encourage economically productive uses of a scarce resource.

    There are many ways to avoid making a profit and still come out ahead. That's why we have a diverse tax system (VAT, income tax, corp tax, CGT, CAT etc), to attempt to avoid distortions from people gaming the system.


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    #40
    _Jamie_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 603 ✭✭✭_Jamie_


    Rayden Dazzling Quail wrote: »
    Nobody cares.

    Speak for yourself. This is important.


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    #41
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    _Jamie_ wrote: »
    It affects other people living in residential buildings.
    In an apartment scenario I would agree to some extent. For a standalone house I would not.


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    #42
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    seamus wrote: »
    All ABP would really have to do is set up a tiger team to monitor and review AirBnB lettings, and issuing warnings to people using them as short-term lets rather than guest houses.
    It's not in their remit. The local planning authorities are responsible for instigating enforcement proceedings. ABP ajudicate when an appeal is made by either party. Every local authority would need to dedicate resources to this, resources they don't have. It's all optics. If nobody complains no action will be taken.


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    #43
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    murphaph wrote: »
    It's not in their remit. The local planning authorities are responsible for instigating enforcement proceedings. ABP ajudicate when an appeal is made by either party. Every local authority would need to dedicate resources to this, resources they don't have. It's all optics. If nobody complains no action will be taken.

    Planning applications aren't coming in as quick and numerous as before. Wouldn't be too difficult to scour through 5 or 10 websites each day for info. Furthermore, from my experience in working in enforcement, once you start knocking on doors initially, those you are questioning aren't as shy about saying, 'what about him or her down the road also, they're doing it as well'.
    Followed on by cross compliance with revenue and other state bodies and a few court cases with publicity, yeah, it would make a change for some enforcement officers.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    I do.

    Ok the vast majority of people don't care. The op is asking are people going to get planing, the answer is no because they don't give two damns about it. That is the reality.

    If they want to stop people turning to Airbnb the give LLs some rights rather than the total tenant centric way things are now.


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    #45
    average_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 12,851 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    KyussBeeshop wrote: »
    Housing minister has confirmed that landlords are not allowed to use AirBnB without planning permission:
    Landlords are not allowed to use Airbnb for the short-term letting of their properties unless they get planning permission for bed and breakfast or hotel status, Minister for Housing Simon Coveney has confirmed.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/landlords-need-permission-for-airbnb-lets-minister-confirms-1.2914873

    So this means all landlords currently using AirBnB without planning permission, will need to stop using AirBnB, and either seek planning permission or make other use of their property - otherwise they will be illegally renting out their property.

    Seems to warrant its own thread, but if mods disagree please feel free to move or merge elsewhere.

    That won't hold in court. You don't need planning permission for normal short term lettings


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    #46
    April 73
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    Donal55 wrote: »
    Planning applications aren't coming in as quick and numerous as before. Wouldn't be too difficult to scour through 5 or 10 websites each day for info. Furthermore, from my experience in working in enforcement, once you start knocking on doors initially, those you are questioning aren't as shy about saying, 'what about him or her down the road also, they're doing it as well'.
    Followed on by cross compliance with revenue and other state bodies and a few court cases with publicity, yeah, it would make a change for some enforcement officers.

    You'd need to make someone accountable in the LA for this. Which needs pressure to come on from on high & resources. Planning officers are still busy. I just don't see it happening.

    As someone else said - it's all optics. To be seen to proactive & doing something.


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    #47
    Monkeyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Monkeyjoe


    I think you will end up having potential buyers checking whether the short term lets have planning permission to force this stock onto the market.

    Doesn't cost anything to ask and they won't lose sleep over the LL's situation.

    Interesting few months ahead I think. Typical of governments turning citizens against each other.
    Rayden Dazzling Quail wrote: »
    Ok the vast majority of people don't care. The op is asking are people going to get planing, the answer is no because they don't give two damns about it. That is the reality.

    If they want to stop people turning to Airbnb the give LLs some rights rather than the total tenant centric way things are now.


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    #48
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    April 73 wrote: »
    You'd need to make someone accountable in the LA for this. Which needs pressure to come on from on high & resources. Planning officers are still busy. I just don't see it happening.

    As someone else said - it's all optics. To be seen to proactive & doing something.

    I havent read any of the details, not even the links on this thread, however if it does come to fruition as is identifoed on here the resources will be made available. Chief executives in the Dublin LAs and in other cities were there are housing problems and Air BnB will put in people. Elected members also will want to see action. LAs are getting engineering and technical staff back who were seconded to IW. These people will have to go somewhere, be it Roads, Housing or Environment or Planning Depts.
    It all depends how the Dept. Of Environment and Coveney wants this dealt with.


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    #49
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    KyussBeeshop wrote: »
    Housing minister has confirmed that landlords are not allowed to use AirBnB without planning permission:
    Landlords are not allowed to use Airbnb for the short-term letting of their properties unless they get planning permission for bed and breakfast or hotel status, Minister for Housing Simon Coveney has confirmed.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/landlords-need-permission-for-airbnb-lets-minister-confirms-1.2914873

    So this means all landlords currently using AirBnB without planning permission, will need to stop using AirBnB, and either seek planning permission or make other use of their property - otherwise they will be illegally renting out their property.

    Seems to warrant its own thread, but if mods disagree please feel free to move or merge elsewhere.
    is this not another way of collecting revenue, it is going to cost those applying for this status


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    #50
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    goat2 wrote: »
    is this not another way of collecting revenue, it is going to cost those applying for this status
    Planning applications most certainly do not generate much revenue. If anything they're a massive cost to the exchequer.


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    #51
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    seamus wrote: »
    Planning applications most certainly do not generate much revenue. If anything they're a massive cost to the exchequer.
    Did not know that, apoligies


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    #52
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    seamus wrote:
    All ABP would really have to do is set up a tiger team to monitor and review AirBnB lettings, and issuing warnings to people using them as short-term lets rather than guest houses.

    Given that AirBnB don't even check if the person who owns the property is aware that it is being let out (and that the owner is therefore covered from an insurance perspective) I can't see them bothering their ar&e.

    My sister had to deal with them recently about an apartment that was being let without the landlord's permission and they couldn't have given less of a sh*te.

    In this case whoever rented the apartment out was in there taking drugs for about 5 days. They were trying to break into other apartments and the corridors were left covered in blood. All reported to the guards. It look AirBnB about 10 days to even take the illegal listing down. They were only interested in protecting themselves.

    So something totally needs to be done in terms of regulation, the current situation is a joke.


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    #53
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    goat2 wrote: »
    Did not know that, apoligies
    No need to apologise, it's a valid statement/question.
    The actual money that the state gets from planning applications themselves is pretty minimal. The cost of processing the application is huge compared to the fees.
    Here's an example breakdown;
    http://www.sdcc.ie/services/planning/planning-applications/fees-and-advertising

    When you consider the cost of scanning in every application, uploading it, examining it, responding, printing, following up, etc, it's clear that the fees are just nominal amounts to discourage people from filing all sorts of nonsense applications.

    Actually preparing a planning application often isn't cheap - architects and associated stuff costs thousands of euro to do properly.


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    #54
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Rayden Dazzling Quail wrote: »
    Ok the vast majority of people don't care.

    Who says they don't care, you?

    People do indeed care, these illegal rentals are taking up valuable rental stock and are a bloody nuisance to people who have to live beside them.

    This is more good news for Ireland's urban renters.


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    #55
    _Jamie_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 603 ✭✭✭_Jamie_


    murphaph wrote: »
    In an apartment scenario I would agree to some extent. For a standalone house I would not.

    It's not standalone OR apartment. Semi-detached houses, terraces, standalones are that very close together - in all these scenarios, there is potential for disruption.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    Who says they don't care, you?

    People do indeed care, these illegal rentals are taking up valuable rental stock and are a bloody nuisance to people who have to live beside them.
    .

    The current and new tenancy laws are far more than a nuisance to LLs, they are a complete joke so why wouldn't they try to use different ways of renting?

    Renters are renters not owners and that fact is getting lost the way things are going.


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    #57
    76544567
    Registered Users Posts: 465 ✭✭76544567


    I foresee a lot of new companies coming in with slightly different models.
    Property owners are desperate to get away from the RTB. And also from the random changes to laws that can block them from running g their business like a business.


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    #58
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Rayden Dazzling Quail wrote: »
    Renters are renters not owners and that fact is getting lost the way things are going.

    Being an owner does not entitle anyone to opt-out of the planning process.


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    #59
    Sharktopus
    Registered Users Posts: 100 ✭✭Sharktopus


    Airbnb and similar sites such as booking.com etc are platforms that enable breaches of planning through commercial letting of residential platforms. The best way to enforce this is to go to source.

    In London Airbnb introduced a ban on properties being let out for more than 90 days a year following political pressure. THis effectively stamps out illegal commercial letting.

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/airbnb-bans-london-hosts-renting-out-properties-more-than-90-days-planning-permission-2016-12

    Similar could be done here - and then have enforcement for those who are trying to game the system (eg letting out on multiple sites etc)


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    #60
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Sharktopus wrote: »
    In London Airbnb introduced a ban on properties being let out for more than 90 days a year following political pressure. THis effectively stamps out illegal commercial letting.

    Airbnb appear to be getting pretty good at reading the political mood and making changes just before their hand is forced.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised to start hearing stories of AirBnB kicking off landlords with multiple property listings (unless they have planning) and/or limiting rental days per year.

    If I were an Airbnb landlord now, I'd be starting to sweat. Imagine being kicked off Airbnb and subsequently discovering you had to revert to long-term residential lettings at the last rent you charged (potentially a couple of years ago)!


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Seems to be discrimination against AirBnB, probably for tax reasons and because it falls between PRTB and Bord Failte type Guest House and Hotels.
    Instead of deeming it all illegal, why don't they just figure out how to legalise it as its own industry.

    At the risk of stating the obvious, that is exactly what is happening. For it to be a 'proper' legal industry then certain things have to happen. To name a couple - the use has to be reflected in planning permission (which gives other affected parties the opportunity to object), health and safety legislation has to be complied with, and relevant taxes have to be paid.

    Or do you mean they should figure out how to 'legalise' it without the business owner having any of these tedious responsibilities?


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