"It's what you do next that counts"

asimonov · 05-11-2009 8:44pm

Great to see you enjoying the running again woddle. How's your diet now? i know you "gave up" sh1te food a while back - but did you manage to cut down on the sugary things?

Peckham · 05-11-2009 9:05pm

Was going to write what asimonov wrote....you can sense that you're enjoying your running a lot more than previously. Not putting yourself under pressure....and you've gone more than four posts without changing your race schedule and targets!

Woddle · 05-11-2009 9:08pm

asimonov wrote: »

Great to see you enjoying the running again woddle. How's your diet now? i know you "gave up" sh1te food a while back - but did you manage to cut down on the sugary things?

Cheers man, yep the food is going excellent, I have a set of rules written down that allow me to eat what I want once a week and that seems to be working and so far this week I've yet to have my pigging out day, I tell you sparling water has been a blessing, I used to drink alot of fizz and sports drinks but thats's pretty much stopped.
I can't do porridge so I'll do readybrek or wheatabix for brekky and I'm now eating alot more fruit and pasta.
I was never adventurous in trying new foods but finally now that I'm 30 I'm growing up and my taste buds are thanking me

Great to see your up and about yourself and best of luck in Florrence.

Woddle · 05-11-2009 9:10pm

Peckham wrote: »

Was going to write what asimonov wrote....you can sense that you're enjoying your running a lot more than previously. Not putting yourself under pressure....and you've gone more than four posts without changing your race schedule and targets!

Thanks Peckham, I must say not writing my times down for every run has really helped and I'll probably move on to running by time rather than miles and also I've introduced new routes which has been a big help.

asimonov · 05-11-2009 9:15pm

Woddle wrote: »

I tell you sparling water has been a blessing, I used to drink alot of fizz and sports drinks but thats's pretty much stopped.
I can't do porridge so I'll do readybrek or wheatabix for brekky and I'm now eating alot more fruit and pasta.
I was never adventurous in trying new foods but finally now that I'm 30 I'm growing up and my taste buds are thanking me

yeah - i heard sales of BMP were down in south dublin alright

Good on ya, if you back that diet change with consistent training you'll be flying come end of december / january.

Woddle · 06-11-2009 9:46pm

Same route again as Monday and Wednesday with a little bit more tacked on, stupid garmin turned itself off after 6 miles, so a calculated guess at the distance based on the time I arrive home at. I wore 3 layers, leggings, hat and gloves tonight and I felt just right but a little restricted. I've ordered a new water and wind proof jacket so hopefully I'll have it by next week.

I've had a bit of concern shown for me today by my cousin, he gave me the whole rest days are your best days speech

thanks KK, this leads me on to my request I would love to have more input from others on the log, I might sound like I have my mind and plan laid out, which I do but I am a listener so please feel free to comment.
I saw on the sub 3 thread that wizzwill reckons he did his lsrs too fast, I was the opposite doing it too slow so I'm now thinking that this Sundays lsr will be done quick and next Sundays slow and so on, what you think?

8.75 miles at an easy pace
Average HR 70%

Week number|Total weekly miles|Number of sessions|Weight|
1|40.10|0|-1lb|
2|27.83|0||
3|0|0||
4|0|0||
5|0|0||
6|0|0||

village runner · 06-11-2009 10:35pm

What are you training for and dont say Rotterdam ?? 20 weeks away and you have the fitness. Mayble a 6 week 10km schedule would be better ?? 14 weeks would give you plenty of time.
What is the difference time wise between a fast LSR and a slow one ? How much a mile ??
For the nxt 2 month I aim to do 2 hour run every sunday. Easy. Over a min a mile slower that what i run in marathons

You said earlier that you were sold on the idea od higher mileage.
What was your average for hte last marathon. I averaged 48 i think but i done a bit on hte bike. 4 miles = 1 mile running. I was able to do a 50 mile cycle the day after my long run at marathon pace. Therefore the following day i was able to do a tempo.

Best of luck and hope you improve. They aint many lads into it as much as you are. Therefore all of a sudden you might just improve.

Woddle · 06-11-2009 11:23pm

village runner wrote: »

What are you training for and dont say Rotterdam ?? 20 weeks away and you have the fitness. Mayble a 6 week 10km schedule would be better ?? 14 weeks would give you plenty of time.
What is the difference time wise between a fast LSR and a slow one ? How much a mile ??
For the nxt 2 month I aim to do 2 hour run every sunday. Easy. Over a min a mile slower that what i run in marathons

You said earlier that you were sold on the idea od higher mileage.
What was your average for hte last marathon. I averaged 48 i think but i done a bit on hte bike. 4 miles = 1 mile running. I was able to do a 50 mile cycle the day after my long run at marathon pace. Therefore the following day i was able to do a tempo.

Best of luck and hope you improve. They aint many lads into it as much as you are. Therefore all of a sudden you might just improve.

Cheers VR, yep it is for Rotterdam (are you sure your not my uncle, he is complete agreement with you) as I feel I've eroded the good base that I had at the start of the year when I was averaging about 50 a week and peaked at 62 but since April I've been all over the shop, some weeks running 15 then the next 25 then the next 0 so I feel I need to build a base again before I can start the faster interval work.
The would run my fast lsr between 7'40 and 8 and my slow one would be more 8'15 to 8'45.
My aim is higher milage and would love to be at 60-70 by the end of the year before going up to 80.

village runner · 06-11-2009 11:36pm

Woddle wrote: »

Cheers VR, yep it is for Rotterdam (are you sure your not my uncle, he is complete agreement with you) as I feel I've eroded the good base that I had at the start of the year when I was averaging about 50 a week and peaked at 62 but since April I've been all over the shop, some weeks running 15 then the next 25 then the next 0 so I feel I need to build a base again before I can start the faster interval work.
The would run my fast lsr between 7'40 and 8 and my slow one would be more 8'15 to 8'45.
My aim is higher milage and would love to be at 60-70 by the end of the year before going up to 80.

OK. How far you run in your long slow runs ???

With a pb of 3.37 that means you ran the fastest marathon at 8.20 pace.
Do the times above make sense now ??? I want you to see it not me to tell you.
I run alot of my lsr at 8 min miles. Get the miles in and its easy.
If you did 18-20 at 7.40-8.00 i guess the week after is a write off.
I ran a long one at marathon pace. #the folowing friday i raced 10km and still hadnt recovered.

Woddle · 07-11-2009 12:24am

village runner wrote: »

OK. How far you run in your long slow runs ???

With a pb of 3.37 that means you ran the fastest marathon at 8.20 pace.
Do the times above make sense now ??? I want you to see it not me to tell you.
I run alot of my lsr at 8 min miles. Get the miles in and its easy.
If you did 18-20 at 7.40-8.00 i guess the week after is a write off.
I ran a long one at marathon pace. #the folowing friday i raced 10km and still hadnt recovered.

Thanks again VR
my longest run was 20x5 and they were all done at 8'30 ish pace, I've never done a quick lsr in my life and thats why I'm thinking of changing sth, I would also never consider doing 18 or 20 that fast but lets say I have a 15 mile lsr I'd love to be able to do 10 of that quicker than normal.
I'm sick of plodding on my lsrs and dying towards the end of them and then the marathon comes along and I end up runing it the same way I do my lsrs, dying at the end.

Woddle · 07-11-2009 1:33pm

30 minutes on the treadmill at an easy pace, now I'm off to paint the kitchen
Average HR 67%

Week number|Total weekly miles|Number of sessions|Weight|
1|40.10|0|-1lb|
2|31.33|0||
3|0|0||
4|0|0||
5|0|0||
6|0|0||

village runner · 07-11-2009 2:24pm

Woddle wrote: »

Thanks again VR
my longest run was 20x5 and they were all done at 8'30 ish pace, I've never done a quick lsr in my life and thats why I'm thinking of changing sth, I would also never consider doing 18 or 20 that fast but lets say I have a 15 mile lsr I'd love to be able to do 10 of that quicker than normal.
I'm sick of plodding on my lsrs and dying towards the end of them and then the marathon comes along and I end up runing it the same way I do my lsrs, dying at the end.

What about running 10 miles at 9 min miles and move up the gears after that ?
Gets your confidence up and you will then have a chance of running a negative split. If you always fade in hte second half of a long run then on the day the monkey on your shoulder will tell you to slow down. Most weeks you should just run at 8.50 a mile. Training is where you learn not race. Hope to see a change in your long runs and watch your times drop.

Woddle · 07-11-2009 3:30pm

Cheers VR I'll give the negative split thing a go tomorrow, I had that idea a few weeks ago but somewhere along the way went off it but its probably a better idea. The days of running 9 mins are long gone though, so maybe 8'30 for the first 7 miles tomorrow and then 8-8'15 for the final 6. I've been running all my runs the last 2 weeks between 8 and 8'30 and it seems a very easy pace, I even feel like I'm cheating a little

ecoli · 07-11-2009 4:20pm

Looking at your schedule i would say a possible reason for fading is that while your long runs are of the right distance your other days running are too short. Given you have so long to build up i would be more inclined to raise your mileage on other runs by extra mile per day and dropping the LSR back to 16 mile.
From here you will be able to run your runs during the week and slowly bring them up and improve your strength. By doing nearly half your mileage on one day is not going to be as beneficial as your body is not recovering during the week and is going to be extremely tired. As you are interested in the views of Lydiard he always advocated less distance more often rather than big efforts less frequent. By dropping the mileage on that day it will give your body a little extra during the week allowing your body to be able to handle slightly quicker paces. Once you are able for this it will enable you to increase your pace on runs and will overall allow you body to become used to these kind of paces which can make your LSR feel easier. From here you can increase the mileage by roughly two mile every two or three weeks. You wont lose any strength as your mileage will remain the same.
Training should be a constant progression during the base building phase and the fact you are consistently doing the 20 mile does not reap the benefits as much as building towards it.
Hope this helps
Just my two cents people may not agree

BeepBeep67 · 07-11-2009 4:25pm

Agree with ecoli - LSR should be in the 25 - 30% of weekly mileage region, otherwise you are likely to do more harm than good.
Good to see you back all the same - keep her handy!

Woddle · 07-11-2009 5:02pm

Hi guys cheers for the input I'm not too sure where I said I would be doing 20 mile lsrs soon though

I have a 13 miler tomorrow, my first 20 miler doesn't happen till around mid January.
I do agree with ecoli about increasing the distance of runs throughout the week and this will be done on a Wednesday and Friday and I hope to have those days up to 10 mile runs by the new year, this week they were a 7 and just under 9.

See whats yous think of next week?

Mon-6 easy
Tue-5 easy with strides
Wed-10 with 2x15 min tempo
Thu-5 easy
Fri-8 easy
Sat-5 easy with strides
Sun-14 mile lsr try for negative 1/2 splits

Will give me a total of 53 for the week

shels4ever · 07-11-2009 5:12pm

Woddle wrote: »

Hi guys cheers for the input I'm not too sure where I said I would be doing 20 mile lsrs soon though
I have a 13 miler tomorrow, my first 20 miler doesn't happen till around mid January.
I do agree with ecoli about increasing the distance of runs throughout the week and this will be done on a Wednesday and Friday and I hope to have those days up to 10 mile runs by the new year, this week they were a 7 and just under 9.

See whats yous think of next week?

Mon-6 easy
Tue-5 easy with strides
Wed-10 with 2x15 min tempo
Thu-5 easy
Fri-8 easy
Sat-5 easy with strides
Sun-14 mile lsr try for negative 1/2 splits

Will give me a total of 53 for the week

I think you know yoruself what went wrong before, you seem to have focus now and an A goal. I'd agree with the lads above about the mileage build up slowly have you just gone from 41 to 53 miles this week? or did i read that wrong?
Just keep running and enjoy it run a few races and stick to the plan!!. Forget about all your previous marathons now they are in the past .

Edit,
A yes i see your 7 days a week, how do you find that? for me I like a rest day.

ecoli · 07-11-2009 5:37pm

Woddle wrote: »

Hi guys cheers for the input I'm not too sure where I said I would be doing 20 mile lsrs soon though
I have a 13 miler tomorrow, my first 20 miler doesn't happen till around mid January.
I do agree with ecoli about increasing the distance of runs throughout the week and this will be done on a Wednesday and Friday and I hope to have those days up to 10 mile runs by the new year, this week they were a 7 and just under 9.

See whats yous think of next week?

Mon-6 easy
Tue-5 easy with strides
Wed-10 with 2x15 min tempo
Thu-5 easy
Fri-8 easy
Sat-5 easy with strides
Sun-14 mile lsr try for negative 1/2 splits

Will give me a total of 53 for the week

The only thing which i would have a query about is the need for strides at such an early stage? i know you may be worried about trying to have a bit of speed in your legs but to be honest it is not this that lacks in a race it is the aerobic capacity.
Reading an interesting article recently on the principles of Renato Canova on the idea which relates to the finishing speed of top athletes. The same principles apply to that of marathon running
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3289263

Woddle · 07-11-2009 6:06pm

shels4ever wrote: »

I'd agree with the lads above about the mileage build up slowly have you just gone from 41 to 53 miles this week? or did i read that wrong?

Edit,
A yes i see your 7 days a week, how do you find that? for me I like a rest day.

Regarding the mileage I've had a few weeks of 20, 24 37 and 9

Last week was 40 this week will be 44, next week I think 53 will be fine but if it ends up being less, so be it and the week after will be a step back so not too concerned about what 53 may do to me and alot of the mileage is really so easy.
Regarding rest days, I will take them but I don't want to get into the habit of just taking them for the sake of it, I only want to take one because I feel I need it.
And regarding strides I just see that Pfitzinger has it in his schedules early on and I think it'll be good for me to establish a habit.

Big thanks to everyone and their comments, I'm really starting to get an idea of the full picture and it's looking promising.

kevinkilbane · 07-11-2009 6:20pm

Woddle wrote: »

Hi guys cheers for the input I'm not too sure where I said I would be doing 20 mile lsrs soon though
I have a 13 miler tomorrow, my first 20 miler doesn't happen till around mid January.
I do agree with ecoli about increasing the distance of runs throughout the week and this will be done on a Wednesday and Friday and I hope to have those days up to 10 mile runs by the new year, this week they were a 7 and just under 9.

See whats yous think of next week?

Mon-6 easy
Tue-5 easy with strides
Wed-10 with 2x15 min tempo
Thu-5 easy
Fri-8 easy
Sat-5 easy with strides
Sun-14 mile lsr try for negative 1/2 splits

Will give me a total of 53 for the week

i had to comment on this woddle, i had to. you already know what im going to say.
what is wrong with that week??? i dont see why you dont take monday off, or take saturday off, or both...
to ME running 9/10/11 days in a row is not training, more like torture, i would not get the benefits of the training. maybe im wrong... but i aint an elite athlete, nor ever will be, so 4/5 days a week is more than enough for me.
my peak this year was 65miles a week, and i had two days rest. usually i took monday and friday off every week.

REST DAYS ARE YOUR BEST DAYS!

i await your response ha

Woddle · 07-11-2009 6:31pm

kevinkilbane wrote: »

i had to comment on this woddle, i had to. you already know what im going to say.
what is wrong with that week??? i dont see why you dont take monday off, or take saturday off, or both...
to ME running 9/10/11 days in a row is not training, more like torture, i would not get the benefits of the training. maybe im wrong... but i aint an elite athlete, nor ever will be, so 4/5 days a week is more than enough for me.
my peak this year was 65miles a week, and i had two days rest. usually i took monday and friday off every week.

REST DAYS ARE YOUR BEST DAYS!

i await your response ha

Good man KK

, I'm not knocking rest days at all and I will be taken them, but only when I feel like I'm going to need one, I took a day of this week after 11 days on the trot and I did because I felt I was going to need it and I did and because of the day off I enjoyed Fridays 9 miles in the freezing wind and rain and am now looking forward to tomorrows lsr.
I also don't pretend to be an elite

I wish but currently I do have alot of time on my hands to dedicate to training and come xmas my wife won't be back in work till the following October

so plenty of opportunities for me to improve.
Also back to the rest days, I would nearly consider an easy 5 miler to be a rest day as it's done very easy and a few of the books I'm reading reckon it aids recovery better than a complete day off.
What say you now

I am however still trying to figure out what the magic recipe is and I believe I'm getting closer.

ecoli · 07-11-2009 6:33pm

kevinkilbane wrote: »

i had to comment on this woddle, i had to. you already know what im going to say.
what is wrong with that week??? i dont see why you dont take monday off, or take saturday off, or both...
to ME running 9/10/11 days in a row is not training, more like torture, i would not get the benefits of the training. maybe im wrong... but i aint an elite athlete, nor ever will be, so 4/5 days a week is more than enough for me.
my peak this year was 65miles a week, and i had two days rest. usually i took monday and friday off every week.

REST DAYS ARE YOUR BEST DAYS!

i await your response ha

While i agree that rest is important, this does not have to be completely off. Active recovery can be very beneficial this can be doing the likes of three or four mile VERY slow allows your legs to recover and takes some of the pressure off trying to get the mileage in over six days over the week. I think this is a personal choice as some people can get a confidence boost from saying to themselves okay i am training 7 days a week which can motivate them to keep going

BeepBeep67 · 07-11-2009 6:44pm

Yep, I'm all for active rest, I ran 102 consecutive days during the Summer, but every 5-6 days had a sub 30 min slow jog, gave me great confidence and in between the mileage, sessions and races the 30min jog was an oasis of calm :rolleyes:.

Woddle · 07-11-2009 6:47pm

102 :eek: excellent and that 30 mins slow is what I did this morning, don't think I could have ran any slower if I tried, RHR of 67% so def sounds the way to go. Ecoli touched on it also but I find I have to get a streak going or I end up taking days off all over the place.

kevinkilbane · 07-11-2009 9:23pm

What Do I Say? the cheek of you woddle haha...
the books are only guide lines. and also in the 18 and 12week 55-70 mile in AM by pfitzinger, he has a rest day every week.... the books that says, a recovery run of an easy 5miler is better than complete rest, are not for aimed at runners of our level. Am i wrong?????

anyway, im sure ecoli and beep beep are right in what they say, but, as far as i know, ecoli is not the same league as us, hes 4minutes ahead in 5km, 6minutes ahead in 5mile, and so on, (think im right with the times). basically i mean that the guys are too far ahead.

i was going to ask ecoli where does the running end, then beep beep said 102 days. to me thats says exactly how much the two of them are ahead of us.

but it is a personal choice as ecoli says. but woddle should make the right choice for himself. is 11 days in a row quality running for you?????

"i agree with village runner, in everything he said. one thing i wanted to say, is that you have run over 1400miles in 10months and 7days. crazy number, but where did it get you? how many were QUALITY miles?"
your uncle haha

Woddle · 07-11-2009 9:44pm

kevinkilbane wrote: »

"i agree with village runner, in everything he said. one thing i wanted to say, is that you have run over 1400miles in 10months and 7days. crazy number, but where did it get you? how many were QUALITY miles?"
your uncle haha

I'll agree with you on this point, I've ran alot of crap miles but I would disagree with you on the point of ecoli and beepbeep, yes their current times are better than mine and their currently running better but that's why I want to train harder to get there, I'm not going to get there by sitting back and admiring these guys from afar and thinking, sure what's the point to at all, should I give up now as these lads are way better, I don't think so, you got to have a bit of self belief and I have plenty of it, so much so that I know I'll set a PB on new years day for the 5K.
I also think your wrong about the recovery runs not being aimed at our level, search for Tergats posts and he makes alot of sense and it is aimed at our level but the feedback is great and you have me thinking for sure

but it's all about learning where you've gone wrong and trying to correct it, your in a nice position in that what your doing now works for you and alot of that is down to your coach and I have taken some of his points on board especially the working hard in the lsr.

shels4ever · 07-11-2009 10:39pm

Woddle wrote: »

I'll agree with you on this point, I've ran alot of crap miles but I would disagree with you on the point of ecoli and beepbeep, yes their current times are better than mine and their currently running better but that's why I want to train harder to get there, I'm not going to get there by sitting back and admiring these guys from afar and thinking, sure what's the point to at all, should I give up now as these lads are way better, I don't think so, you got to have a bit of self belief and I have plenty of it, so much so that I know I'll set a PB on new years day for the 5K.
I also think your wrong about the recovery runs not being aimed at our level, search for Tergats posts and he makes alot of sense and it is aimed at our level but the feedback is great and you have me thinking for sure but it's all about learning where you've gone wrong and trying to correct it, your in a nice position in that what your doing now works for you and alot of that is down to your coach and I have taken some of his points on board especially the working hard in the lsr.

Yep I agree with that, the recovery runs have a place for sure, and its something that i'd think about myself, the key to it all it listen to your body and just because you schedule says a 3-4-5 mile recovery run it doesnt mean you need to do it. Always listen to your body, the key to your trainign is to stress your body , recover, adapt, and then do it over again.. 7 days a week are defo possible but your the only one who knows when you need to rest. I think you could run a really good marathon next time out, Only problem i've seen with your training is focus on you goal, pick your races no at the start of your plan and dont change them . You love to race and that can be hard when your doing marathon as you cant race week in week out while doing it.... So best of luck with the sub 3:20

Woddle · 08-11-2009 10:43am

I was awake since 6:20 am but just couldn't get out of bed, finally got out of bed at 7am and on the road by 7:20, I had to be back by 8:30 so decided to just do 10 and run a little quicker, I was still a few mins late but as it turns out it didn't matter as our guests still have yet to arrive.

10 miles in 1:18:55, pace 7'53
Average HR 78%

Week number|Total weekly miles|Number of sessions|Weight|
1|40.10|0|-1lb|
2|41.33|1||
3|0|0||
4|0|0||
5|0|0||
6|0|0||

stipes212 · 08-11-2009 1:49pm

[QUOTEas our guests still have yet to arrive.[/QUOTE]

Its very hard to stick exactly to any training programme, rest days, active rest days, etc. Life always gets in the way:

kevinkilbane · 08-11-2009 1:59pm

Woddle wrote: »

I'll agree with you on this point, I've ran alot of crap miles but I would disagree with you on the point of ecoli and beepbeep, yes their current times are better than mine and their currently running better but that's why I want to train harder to get there, I'm not going to get there by sitting back and admiring these guys from afar and thinking, sure what's the point to at all, should I give up now as these lads are way better, I don't think so, you got to have a bit of self belief and I have plenty of it, so much so that I know I'll set a PB on new years day for the 5K.
I also think your wrong about the recovery runs not being aimed at our level, search for Tergats posts and he makes alot of sense and it is aimed at our level but the feedback is great and you have me thinking for sure but it's all about learning where you've gone wrong and trying to correct it, your in a nice position in that what your doing now works for you and alot of that is down to your coach and I have taken some of his points on board especially the working hard in the lsr.

nothing like a good debate is there woddle?
no way am i saying give up, im just talking about different methods of training. i see where the lads are coming from, the recovery runs and no complete rest is excellent for muscle memory and so on. but maybe your diving in at the deep end though???...

im just saying you might run your self into the ground which may have happened in 2009?

but another thing, lets just say im wrong, which the guys and your self think haha, but tell me , all about your stretching/warm ups/cool downs. ive read alot of your training log, not much about on stretching! discuss! haha

"It's what you do next that counts"

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