Pieta House reject fundraising money from hunt

Widdershins

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh I'd fully agree it's not good for a child. Much like giving a child a Big Mac or letting them watch Peppa Pig for hours, it's not beneficial.

What I was answering was the proposition that it's the same as child abuse, which it certainly isn't.

If you can explain how it can be explained to a child I'll accept it's not abusive.

To compare it to watching Peppa Pig for hours shows you don't understand. Generally children aren't inclined to cause pain to other living things and most parents try to discourage them from doing to if they did. Obviously... some people don't.

Nobody has yet explained how to explain to a child without mentally harming it that it's 'ok' and 'fun' to harm an animal for a day out, but not k to, for example, do the same to the family dog or rabbit, or their brother or sister. And how do ye explain to your kids why it is ''fun'' for ye to torture some animals.

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

Clever things them, reasoning about the same as a six year old kid :

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Trained crow... Miss the leg tags ? You can teach many animals many things. Does not mean the same wild version will naturally display the same problem solving. They trained pigeons to act as a guidance system in bombs.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Trained crow... Miss the leg tags ?

So just because they've leg tags they are trained ? stop wasting oxygen

Subjects

Subjects were six wild NC crows, caught and temporarily housed in a six-cage aviary on Grande-Terre, New Caledonia. Three of the birds (R, W & Y) were adults and three were sub-adults (O, RB & WG). Based on sexual size dimorphism [43] two of the birds (R & Y) were male. Two birds (WG & R) did not complete all the experiments due to lack of motivation; thus, six birds took part in Experiments 1 & 2, five birds took part in Experiments 3 & 4, and four birds took part in Experiments 5 & 6. Birds were released at their site of capture at the end of this experiment.

CaptainInsano

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I see has one a link to data showing this revelation ?

Yawn. Where's your link to state otherwise?

I think the fact that the majority of the posters in favour of the hunt justify it as pest control backs up the intelligence problem. What a moronic, nonsensical way of dealing with a pest issue. People are just afraid to admit in public that they want to inflict pain and suffering on foxes because they hate them and it makes them feel good to see them tortured.

darkpagandeath

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Yawn. Where's your link to state otherwise?

I think the fact that the majority of the posters in favour of the hunt justify it as pest control backs up the intelligence problem. What a moronic, nonsensical way of dealing with a pest issue. People are just afraid to admit in public that they want to inflict pain and suffering on foxes because they hate them and it makes them feel good to see them tortured.

You introduce the intelligence angle not me. Should not be hard to find data proving those that hunt are of lower intelligence and character. Or as I suspet ….

darkpagandeath

gctest50 wrote: »

So just because they've leg tags they are trained ? stop wasting oxygen

:pac::pac::pac:

darkpagandeath

Widdershins wrote: »

If you can explain how it can be explained to a child I'll accept it's not abusive.

To compare it to watching Peppa Pig for hours shows you don't understand. Generally children aren't inclined to cause pain to other living things and most parents try to discourage them from doing to if they did. Obviously... some people don't.

Nobody has yet explained how to explain to a child without mentally harming it that it's 'ok' and 'fun' to harm an animal for a day out, but not k to, for example, do the same to the family dog or rabbit, or their brother or sister.

Pain is part of nature...

CaptainInsano

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You introduce the intelligence angle not me. Should not be hard to find data proving those that hunt are of lower intelligence and character. Or as I suspet ….

I haven't got data, neither do you. I have every unfortunate discussion I've ever had on the topic in my mind though. And I've never heard a single good argument in favour of the hunt. And you haven't even attempted to offer one.

Widdershins

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Pain is part of nature...

Er..humans and society have basic moral and legal codes around torturing living things. It being ''part of nature'' doesn't mean it is ok to inflict it. That's something I'd want a child to understand, and here I find what I have to assume is a grown adult, on Boards, not understanding it.

darkpagandeath

CaptainInsano wrote: »

I haven't got data, neither do you. I have every unfortunate discussion I've ever had on the topic in my mind though. And I've never heard a single good argument in favour of the hunt. And you haven't even attempted to offer one.

No, One has not heard an argument they agree with entirely different. I would not be into hunting myself In my home country have seen it going on. But, If push comes to shove I would be able to kill my own food to survive. Does that make me mentally deficient and of lower intelligence ?

darkpagandeath

Widdershins wrote: »

Er..humans and society have basic moral and legal codes around torturing living things. It being ''part of nature'' doesn't mean it is ok to inflict it. That's something I'd want a child to understand, and here I find what I have to assume is a grown adult, on Boards, not understanding it.

Oh so the hunt was Illegal now ? Many cultures practice the hunt. They don't seem to have issues with children killing everyone.

CaptainInsano

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No, One has not heard an argument they agree with entirely different. I would not be into hunting myself In my home country have seen it going on. But, If push comes to shove I would be able to kill my own food to survive. Does that make me mentally deficient and of lower intelligence ?

Ah I see. You don't understand what people mean by the hunt. That's when people chase a fox on horses and let dogs rip it apart for fun. As has been stated 200 times already.

Widdershins

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Oh so the hunt was Illegal now ? Many cultures practice the hunt. They don't seem to have issues with children killing everyone.

Link? pfft. From the sublime to the ridiculous. That's my lot for tonight.

darkpagandeath

Widdershins wrote: »

Link? pfft. From the sublime to the ridiculous. That's my lot for tonight.

Was it an Illegal hunt simple question.

darkpagandeath

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Ah I see. You don't understand what people mean by the hunt. That's when people chase a fox on horses and let dogs rip it apart for fun. As has been stated 200 times already.

Happens in many many cultures And in Nature. Have you ever seen killer whales playing with seals before killing them a blood sport of their own.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh I'd fully agree it's not good for a child. Much like giving a child a Big Mac or letting them watch Peppa Pig for hours, it's not beneficial.

What I was answering was the proposition that it's the same as child abuse, which it

Fox hunting is not the same as child abuse but subjecting a child to Fox hunting is a form of child abuse.
No where did I say the life of a Fox is the same as a life of a child.
Yet u continue to post I did.

Are you also a donald.

CaptainInsano

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Happens in many many cultures And in Nature. Have you ever seen killer whales playing with seals before killing them a blood sport of their own.

Yeah I have. I've seen crocodiles eat other crocodiles offspring too. Off you go to eat your neighbours kids now.

darkpagandeath

CaptainInsano wrote: »

Yeah I have. I've seen crocodiles eat other crocodiles offspring too. Off you go to eat your neighbours kids now.

Na, Forgot how to use the door.

jackboy

There are plenty of valid arguments against hunting. However, many of the arguments used on this thread are spurious, to say the least.

Calling hunters; child abusers, sociopaths, psychopaths and unintelligent is not much of an argument.

Many of the hunters I know are great people and excellent parents. I suspect the extreme name callers will never accept that though.

darkpagandeath

jackboy wrote: »

There are plenty of valid arguments against hunting. However, many of the arguments used on this thread are spurious, to say the least.

Calling hunters; child abusers, sociopaths, psychopaths and unintelligent is not much of an argument.

Many of the hunters I know are great people and excellent parents. I suspect the extreme name callers will never accept that though.

Don't they eat their young ?? :pac:

Discodog

darkpagandeath wrote: »

They did not seem to mind keeping dogs in captivity... I had a real laugh at the hard man that got battered by the Easter European woman. Some bloody nose she gave him. Remember they tried to set the place on fire. Very safe for the animals..

I don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about. Do you?

Shenshen

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Happens in many many cultures And in Nature. Have you ever seen killer whales playing with seals before killing them a blood sport of their own.

Sorry, but when did "others do it, too" become an argument any adult would expect another adult to accept?
Other cultures do lots of things we don't do here, because we find them immoral.
Nature is not a yard stick for moral behaviour - if it was, we'd be throwing sh*t at people we don't like, drive old people out of society to let them starve and occasionally eat our own young.

darkpagandeath

Discodog wrote: »

I don't have the faintest idea what you are talking about. Do you?

Violence erupts at circus protest ...

darkpagandeath

Shenshen wrote: »

Sorry, but when did "others do it, too" become an argument any adult would expect another adult to accept?
Other cultures do lots of things we don't do here, because we find them immoral.
Nature is not a yard stick for moral behaviour - if it was, we'd be throwing sh*t at people we don't like, drive old people out of society to let them starve and occasionally eat our own young.

Who's we ?

Discodog

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Violence erupts at circus protest ...

What's that got to do with Pieta house or fox hunting?

darkpagandeath

Discodog wrote: »

What's that got to do with Pieta house or fox hunting?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102072557&postcount=236

Widdershins

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Was it an Illegal hunt simple question.

Was what an illegal hunt? I thought this was about hunting in general? Will you stop asking obtuse questions please

Short answer, if in Ireland recently, probably not. The same actions would be punishable by law if they weren't perpetrated under the heading of ''the hunt'', though.

Conor74, it just came to me that a slightly closer example to the truth would be to compare the relative 'badness' of exposing a child to foxhunting would be to leave a child in front of horror films (''for hours''), rather than the example of Peppa Pig that you gave.

darkpagandeath

Widdershins wrote: »

Was what an illegal hunt? I thought this was about hunting in general? Will you stop asking obtuse questions please

Short answer, if in Ireland recently, probably not. The same actions would be punishable by law if they weren't perpetrated under the heading of ''the hunt'', though.

Conor74, it just came to me that a slightly closer example to the truth would be to compare the relative 'badness' of exposing a child to foxhunting would be to leave a child in front of horror films (''for hours''), rather than the example of Peppa Pig that you gave.

Err that was not me...

Widdershins

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Err that was not me...

I know, sorry. I meant that last part for a different poster called Conor74.

darkpagandeath

Widdershins wrote: »

I know, sorry. I meant that last part for a different poster called Conor74.

Fair enough, No harm done.

DEFTLEFTHAND

We've been touched by it in our family and Pieta House were there for us, they're a wonderful organisation.

They're right to reject funds from fox hunting. It's a rotten practice.

darkpagandeath

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

We've been touched by it in our family and Pieta House were there for us, they're a wonderful organisation.

They're right to reject funds from fox hunting. It's a rotten practice.

I agree, but it does not turn children into psychopaths.

Widdershins

Widdershins wrote: »

If you can explain how it can be explained to a child I'll accept it's not abusive.

To compare it to watching Peppa Pig for hours shows you don't understand. Generally children aren't inclined to cause pain to other living things and most parents try to discourage them from doing to if they did. Obviously... some people don't.

Nobody has yet explained how to explain to a child without mentally harming it that it's 'ok' and 'fun' to harm an animal for a day out, but not k to, for example, do the same to the family dog or rabbit, or their brother or sister. And how do ye explain to your kids why it is ''fun'' for ye to torture some animals.

You don't understand child abuse.

To even invoke it is disturbing.

Children who witness animals suffering, whether it be a fish landed on a river bank or a rabbit caught in a snare or even a fox being chased, are not abused. To equivocate or conflate exposure to animal suffering with child abuse is...jawdropping.

Again, exposing a child to a horror film may not be proper parenting. But it's not abuse. Do you know anyone who went through physical or sexual abuse (it sounds like you don't)? Would you honestly tell them it's like witnessing animal cruelty or watching a horror film?

1eg0a3xv7b82of

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You don't understand child abuse.

To even invoke it is disturbing.

Children who witness animals suffering, whether it be a fish landed on a river bank or a rabbit caught in a snare or even a fox being chased, are not abused. To equivocate or conflate exposure to animal suffering with child abuse is...jawdropping.

Again, exposing a child to a horror film may not be proper parenting. But it's not abuse. Do you know anyone who went through physical or sexual abuse (it sounds like you don't)? Would you honestly tell them it's like witnessing animal cruelty or watching a horror film?

You are still drawing wrong conclusions from posters. Exposing a child to animal cruelty or horror movies is considered a form of child abuse by many people.
Just Google it and the truth will enlighten you.
Also I think it is bad form of you to rank child abuse, emotional abuse of children can also damage young minds.

jackboy

Ember Scarce Mind wrote: »

You are still drawing wrong conclusions from posters. Exposing a child to animal cruelty or horror movies is considered a form of child abuse by many people.
Just Google it and the truth will enlighten you.
Also I think it is bad form of you to rank child abuse, emotional abuse of children can also damage young minds.

Many people believe a lot of things with lots of 'evidence' from google.

Discodog

darkpagandeath wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102072557&postcount=236

What has the decision by a charity to refuse a donation from a hunt have to do with a circus protests ? Yes most circuses have clowns :pac:

Discodog

Ember Scarce Mind wrote: »

You are still drawing wrong conclusions from posters. Exposing a child to animal cruelty or horror movies is considered a form of child abuse by many people.
Just Google it and the truth will enlighten you.
Also I think it is bad form of you to rank child abuse, emotional abuse of children can also damage young minds.

I agree. Child abuse covers a wide range. Many children suffer emotional abuse. I can fully understand that someone, seeking the help of Pieta house, wouldn't want to be associated with those who inflict suffering on animals.

One could argue that encouraging children to follow the hunt is at best bad parenting as they are supporting animal cruelty.

If someone chased a pet dog until it collapsed & then had it ripped apart, they would like face a jail term. But we do the same thing to an animal that it virtually the same, with the same ability to feel fear & pain. It's ridiculous to say that it's ok for one species of canine but not another.

Discodog

jackboy wrote: »

Many people believe a lot of things with lots of 'evidence' from google.

You seriously don't believe that emotional or psychological abuse exists & is damaging ?

Ember Scarce Mind

Ember Scarce Mind wrote: »

You are still drawing wrong conclusions from posters. Exposing a child to animal cruelty or horror movies is considered a form of child abuse by many people.
Just Google it and the truth will enlighten you.
Also I think it is bad form of you to rank child abuse, emotional abuse of children can also damage young minds.

What utter nonsense.

The law and the Courts most certainly do rank child abuse. As do most normal people. So you have, at the serious end, the rape of a child, further down you may have slapping, and not on the scale at all is simply bad parenting, too much sweets, watching unsuitable films, or witnessing cruelty that occurs in a perfectly legal sport. If you fond something on Google that says they're all the same and they're all child abuse, good for you, I'll stick with the law and reality here.

robertpatterson

I could care less if some people enjoy hunting foxes or if it offends others its not my bag but then a lot of things that are legal I dont enjoy but dont suffer from the level of outrage others on here seem to
Pieta house were fully prepared to accept the money from the group of horse riders who weren't hunting anything on their night time ride until some of the vocal few were 'outraged' and then decided to review their policies so it says a lot about that organisation to me
Regarding the trespassing of the hunt they should be prosecuted if they do ,whether its a load of people on horseback or 'a few knackers with lurchers'

1eg0a3xv7b82of

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What utter nonsense.

The law and the Courts most certainly do rank child abuse. As do most normal people. So you have, at the serious end, the rape of a child, further down you may have slapping, and not on the scale at all is simply bad parenting, too much sweets, watching unsuitable films, or witnessing cruelty that occurs in a perfectly legal sport. If you fond something on Google that says they're all the same and they're all child abuse, good for you, I'll stick with the law and reality here.

Yet again you exclude emotional abuse. Why?
Emotional abuse and controlling behaviour, physical abuse and sexual abuse all damage children.
emotional abuse of children by adults is the cause of many societies ills.

Also You cannot compare eating too many sweets to making a child watching an animal being ripped to death.
Reality or fantasy.

jackboy

Discodog wrote: »

You seriously don't believe that emotional or psychological abuse exists & is damaging ?

You got the wrong person. I never said anything even close to that.

Ember Scarce Mind

Ember Scarce Mind wrote: »

Yet again you exclude emotional abuse. Why?
Emotional abuse and controlling behaviour, physical abuse and sexual abuse all damage children.
emotional abuse of children by adults is the cause of many societies ills

I am not excluding emotional abuse as a form of abuse.

I am excluding watching legitimate and legal sports such as fishing or hunting as being abuse, emotional or otherwise.

Look, I'll agree with Tusla's definitons and you can make up your own version of abuse and we can agree to differ...

http://www.tusla.ie/services/child-protection-welfare/definitions-of-child-abuse

Yellow pack crisps

Deleted User wrote: »

I am not excluding emotional abuse as a form of abuse.

I am excluding watching legitimate and legal sports such as fishing or hunting as being abuse, emotional or otherwise.

Look, I'll agree with Tusla's definitons and you can make up your own version of abuse and we can agree to differ...

http://www.tusla.ie/services/child-protection-welfare/definitions-of-child-abuse

Where does it end and where does it begin though? If you seen a group of people running after and attacking a dog/cat on the street would you not try to stop it? wouldn't it be wrong? Just because animals are wild do they not deserve the same protection as domesticated animals? I eat meat of course I'm being hypocritical but i am sure there is a better way. I am seriously thinking of cutting out all meat now because of the way animals are treated and questioning the morals of being part of that problem. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

we all have our own version of right

not so for legal

thats why legal is useful and right isnt

Yellow pack crisps

Deleted User wrote: »

we all have our own version of right

not so for legal

thats why legal is useful and right isnt

The law should be challenged as well and not left to stagnate and become divisive with outdated views too though.

Widdershins

Deleted User wrote: »

I am not excluding emotional abuse as a form of abuse.

I am excluding watching legitimate and legal sports such as fishing or hunting as being abuse, emotional or otherwise.

Look, I'll agree with Tusla's definitons and you can make up your own version of abuse and we can agree to differ...

http://www.tusla.ie/services/child-protection-welfare/definitions-of-child-abuse

How is hunting a legitimate sport? What legitimises it-the fancy jackets or the numbers involved or something? If I had a rottweiler which chased and savaged a terrier in front of your garden gate in front of your family would that be illegitimate and why? What if I thought it was exhilarating? (I think that's the word another poster used for the hunt experience)
Since the rottweiler is supposed to be muzzled because they are classed as a dangerous dog, that'd be illegitimate, right? And because I'm not with an official pre-planned crowd?
Even though it's the exact same thing, especially to a child who (hopefully) doesn't think it's ok to chase, maul and savage any animal for any reason.
So when someone explains how you explain to a child that it IS ok, in fact its EXHILARATING to gang up, chase down a fox, corner it and torture it to death, I'll accept that that is not mentally deleterious to the child's mental wellbeing or in simpler terms, abuse!

CaptainInsano

I wouldn't look at the law in Ireland as definitive proof it's a legitimate sport. It's banned in the UK and will be here eventually. Luckily for the UK they realised it's backwards nature many years ago.

Widdershins

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't understand child abuse.

To even invoke it is disturbing.

Children who witness animals suffering, whether it be a fish landed on a river bank or a rabbit caught in a snare or even a fox being chased, are not abused. To equivocate or conflate exposure to animal suffering with child abuse is...jawdropping.

Again, exposing a child to a horror film may not be proper parenting. But it's not abuse. Do you know anyone who went through physical or sexual abuse (it sounds like you don't)? Would you honestly tell them it's like witnessing animal cruelty or watching a horror film?

Nobody's talking about physical or sexual abuse apart from you. I totally disagree that emotional and psychological abuse (which encompasses neglect too) are not relevant, or not relevant to this.

And it's none of your business whether I am familiar with the above, and quite an ignorant comment. It seems like you're caught up on physical and sexual abuse for a reason. Which is not my fault.

The horror film example is not even close to subjecting a child to a hunt. It's only closer than your own example of sitting them in front of cartoons for hours.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

Deleted User wrote: »

I am not excluding emotional abuse as a form of abuse.

I am excluding watching legitimate and legal sports such as fishing or hunting as being abuse, emotional or otherwise.

Look, I'll agree with Tusla's definitons and you can make up your own version of abuse and we can agree to differ...

http://www.tusla.ie/services/child-protection-welfare/definitions-of-child-abuse

I agree with the tusla website, maybe you need to read that link yourself.
The problem with some people is that They are so bullish about point scoring they fail to see the wood from the trees.
You need to accept that society is changing, our youth are very liberal and fox hunting will soon be banned.

Discodog

Ember Scarce Mind wrote: »

I agree with the tusla website, maybe you need to read that link yourself.
The problem with some people is that They are so bullish about point scoring they fail to see the wood from the trees.
You need to accept that society is changing, our youth are very liberal and fox hunting will soon be banned.

I agree but i think that Ireland will be slow to ban fox hunting. People joke about the English class structure but it's just as prevalent here. Fox hunting, hare coursing & greyhound racing are fully backed by the state. They all share a common denominator in that the animals involved are treated as some kind of sub species incapable of feeling pain or distress.

If thousands of domestic dogs disappeared every year there would be an outcry but as they are greyhounds this is acceptable - same species, same physiology.

If we took any other wild animal, trapped it & then let dogs chase it, it would be a crime but Hares are a "special case" so it's becomes a "sport".

The poor fox falls into the so called vermin category so you can do what you like.