This week's EV bargain that I'm not buying

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

€40k Model 3 SR+ anyone, looks in excellent nick and some appealing extras...

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/tesla-model-3-sr-zero-roi-import-charges/27172436

Zero import charges? There is still VRT to pay, isn't there? Also that's a GB plate, not a NI plate. Unless I had it from the revenue in writing that no VAT / import duties are due, I wouldn't risk bringing it in here.

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

Zero import charges? There is still VRT to pay, isn't there?

Oh but that's not an import tax according to the Irish government :pac::pac::pac::pac:

T-b0n3

unkel wrote: »

Zero import charges? There is still VRT to pay, isn't there?

Just looking at that myself.

14% (VRT Rate) * €40k (value of car) = €5,600

€5,600 - €5k (VRT electric car relief) = €600 VRT due.

unkel

T-b0n3 wrote: »

Just looking at that myself.

14% (VRT Rate) * €40k (value of car) = €5,600

€5,600 - €5k (VRT electric car relief) = €600 VRT due.

The VRT rates have changed, haven't they? And is the OMSP €40k? Is it on the calculator? If the revenue come back to you saying the car is worth €45k here, you will have to pay a lot more VRT

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

The VRT rates have changed, haven't they? And is the OMSP €40k? Is it on the calculator? If the revenue come back to you saying the car is worth €45k here, you will have to pay a lot more VRT

Yep, 7% VRT and the rebate scales down from €40k


€40k = €5k rebate
€45k = €2.5k rebate
€50k and over = no rebate

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Zero import charges? There is still VRT to pay, isn't there? Also that's a GB plate, not a NI plate. Unless I had it from the revenue in writing that no VAT / import duties are due, I wouldn't risk bringing it in here.

Buying from an NI address - and a car properly imported and registered to an NI address would fit that criteria - means there's no import tax or vat due.

T-b0n3 wrote: »

Just looking at that myself.

14% (VRT Rate) * €40k (value of car) = €5,600

€5,600 - €5k (VRT electric car relief) = €600 VRT due.

No vrt as the rate is 7% and you get 2.5k rebate as above.

T-b0n3

ELM327 wrote: »

Buying from an NI address - and a car properly imported and registered to an NI address would fit that criteria - means there's no import tax or vat due.




No vrt as the rate is 7% and you get 2.5k rebate as above.

I blame the revenue website for misleading me (here)

Thanks for correcting me.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Buying from an NI address - and a car properly imported and registered to an NI address would fit that criteria - means there's no import tax or vat due.

If the car was registered to an NI address before this year that is. I guess this is most likely the case here but I would want to see proof of this.

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yep, 7% VRT and the rebate scales down from €40k


€40k = €5k rebate
€45k = €2.5k rebate
€50k and over = no rebate

So if revenue value the car at €40k, then no VRT, if they value it at €45k then €650 VRT

A lot of trouble and some risk there. I would just buy a better built, newer AP hardware, with heatpump, brand new 2021 Model 3 with the more solid and safer LiFePo4 batteries for just six or seven grand more than it costs to bring this one in...

jordan191

A new blue SR+ is currently €48,765 & this will increase a bit with the 2% vat rate, so assuming you managed to haggle a bit to 39k euro, that's a saving of 10 grand, so i'd be thinking that is a good deal for a low mileage 192 Tesla, that still has a tesla warranty etc

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

If the car was registered to an NI address before this year that is. I guess this is most likely the case here but I would want to see proof of this.



So if revenue value the car at €40k, then no VRT, if they value it at €45k then €650 VRT

A lot of trouble and some risk there. I would just buy a better built, newer AP hardware, with heatpump, brand new 2021 Model 3 with the more solid and safer LiFePo4 batteries for just six or seven grand more than it costs to bring this one in...

Not quite. Registered to an NI address before 1-1-21, or properly imported to NI with customs declaration after 1-1-21.
In any case, it's likely that this car is in NI pre 1-1-21.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

Zero import charges? There is still VRT to pay, isn't there? Also that's a GB plate, not a NI plate. Unless I had it from the revenue in writing that no VAT / import duties are due, I wouldn't risk bringing it in here.

The owner is NI based and bought the car new from Tesla in 2019. At the time there was no Belfast SC and collection from Dublin wasn’t allowed so he has to collect from the Manchester SC.

It’s been registered to his NI address from day 1.

Casati

Gumbo wrote: »

The owner is NI based and bought the car new from Tesla in 2019. At the time there was no Belfast SC and collection from Dublin wasn’t allowed so he has to collect from the Manchester SC.

It’s been registered to his NI address from day 1.

Looks like good value - few extras too - fog lights, chrome delete, rear window tint, performance pedals, Jeda wireless phone charge pad and USB hub, so 10k saving for a year and half versus buying new here

Im not up to speed but is the new Chinese M3 not seeing some big quality issues?

slave1

Those extras are appealing to the right buyer, I'd love most of them, it's also a super colour

NIMAN

At the minute it looks like it's pointless linking UK cars in here as bargains, since it's so unclear how much they would cost to get it on the road in Ireland?

unkel

At €35k it would be a bargain. At €40k not so much. Imho of course, anyone think it's a bargain go right ahead and buy it

ELM327 wrote: »

Not quite. Registered to an NI address before 1-1-21, or properly imported to NI with customs declaration after 1-1-21.
In any case, it's likely that this car is in NI pre 1-1-21.

Not so. The revenue have already said they will not allow GB cars, subsequently registered in NI and then imported into ROI to do so now without paying import duty and VAT over here.

unkel

NIMAN wrote: »

At the minute it looks like it's pointless linking UK cars in here as bargains, since it's so unclear how much they would cost to get it on the road in Ireland?

It's not unclear, the only unknown is what OMSP the revenue are putting on the car, so the amount of VRT is unknown (if the car is not on the VRT calculator)

Nothing has changed there, that was always the case even before Brexit, i.e. the Tesla Model S import from the UK in the last few years

The one thing that is confusing to some people, myself included, is that the VRT system has changed this year, but it is not all that hard to apply once you know the new system, see cruisey1987's post

NIMAN

Are there not VAT costs too, in addition to vrt ?

Gumbo

NIMAN wrote: »

Are there not VAT costs too, in addition to vrt ?

Not on original NI cars.
Only UK Mainland cars.

Gumbo

NIMAN wrote: »

At the minute it looks like it's pointless linking UK cars in here as bargains, since it's so unclear how much they would cost to get it on the road in Ireland?

UK mainland cars, yes most likely no point.
But NI cars are fair game assuming it’s a bargain.

Gumbo

unkel wrote: »

At €35k it would be a bargain. At €40k not so much. Imho of course, anyone think it's a bargain go right ahead and buy it



Not so. The revenue have already said they will not allow GB cars, subsequently registered in NI and then imported into ROI to do so now without paying import duty and VAT over here.

Agree about the price. It’s a lovely car. But it’s not a bargain.
I’d personally pay the extra to get a 21 refresh car in white.

NIMAN

Gumbo wrote: »

Not on original NI cars.
Only UK Mainland cars.

That's why I said UK cars.

Gumbo

NIMAN wrote: »

That's why I said UK cars.

Less of that non EU talk

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

At €35k it would be a bargain. At €40k not so much. Imho of course, anyone think it's a bargain go right ahead and buy it



Not so. The revenue have already said they will not allow GB cars, subsequently registered in NI and then imported into ROI to do so now without paying import duty and VAT over here.

We've been over this and , while I see they say they wont allow, they have no basis to define that.



The trade deal is pretty simple, and once the car was properly imported to NI (with a customs declaration form) you can import then the same day to ROI. I really hope that someone onhere or one of the FB groups takes a test case as I'm genuinely curious to see which of us is guessing right

TheWonderLlama

The problem is, Area 6 is currently experiencing quantum identity. It is simultaneously a part of the UK and the EU, a state which doesn't exist anywhere else.

So therefore, if a NI-resident buys a UK car and brings it across the pond, for their own use, there is no VAT to pay as they are moving goods within the UK. However, Thy have also brought goods into the EU VAT area, and so, they have to complete a customs declaration (and pay duty in certain circumstances) and if they move the car to any other are within the EU, they must pay EU import VAT.

The revenue will enforce the VAT charge as it is the point of entry into Ireland for the vehicle. You might say they have no basis for this, but i think you'll find you are incorrect. All goods imported to Ireland from a third country are subject to VAT at the point of entry. The UK, including Area 6 is now a 3rd country. Hence the Ni protocol and the need for a hard border in the Irish sea. it is simply the EU protecting its domestic economies.

There is an element of inequity in this, in that a car could have paid VAT in the UK while it was a member of the EU and so should be free to cross borders without a second charge to VAT, but that's not how things have panned out and it is very unlikely that the UK will facilitate a VAT refund for vehicles exported to the EU now.

the_amazing_raisin

TheWonderLlama wrote: »

The problem is, Area 6 is currently experiencing quantum identity. It is simultaneously a part of the UK and the EU, a state which doesn't exist anywhere else.

So therefore, if a NI-resident buys a UK car and brings it across the pond, for their own use, there is no VAT to pay as they are moving goods within the UK. However, Thy have also brought goods into the EU VAT area, and so, they have to complete a customs declaration (and pay duty in certain circumstances) and if they move the car to any other are within the EU, they must pay EU import VAT.

The revenue will enforce the VAT charge as it is the point of entry into Ireland for the vehicle. You might say they have no basis for this, but i think you'll find you are incorrect. All goods imported to Ireland from a third country are subject to VAT at the point of entry. The UK, including Area 6 is now a 3rd country. Hence the Ni protocol and the need for a hard border in the Irish sea. it is simply the EU protecting its domestic economies.

There is an element of inequity in this, in that a car could have paid VAT in the UK while it was a member of the EU and so should be free to cross borders without a second charge to VAT, but that's not how things have panned out and it is very unlikely that the UK will facilitate a VAT refund for vehicles exported to the EU now.

Why's it called Area 6 now, are there UFOs there?


You're mostly correct, basically the UK government is supposed to be enforcing VAT collection for cars moving from GB to NI


But they've already said they aren't going to


So now you have a situation where a car has arrived in NI and owes VAT to the EU. The EU isn't going to be able to collect the VAT owed while the car is in NI


But if it is imported to ROI, then Irish revenue will be checking to see if any VAT is owed and will collect it

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

The trade deal is pretty simple, and once the car was properly imported to NI (with a customs declaration form) you can import then the same day to ROI. I really hope that someone onhere or one of the FB groups takes a test case as I'm genuinely curious to see which of us is guessing right

I'd like to see a test case as well, but I suspect the days of Paddy Irishman heading uo to NI or taking the ferry and importing a car are gone


Given there seems to be a fair amount of paperwork involved, I imagine anyone looking to import will need to go through a proffessional vehicle importer


I don't know how much they charge, but I imagine it'd be in the region of a couple of thousand. For that, it'll only really make sense for higher price cars


As I've said before, I think the focus may now turn to buying new cars in the UK. If you can get around the double VAT (which seems straightforward in the case of a new car) then I think even with customs duty it can still work out cheaper due to currency differences and stuff generally being cheaper in the UK

NIMAN

And surely all this will push up the price of cars in Ireland, now that a lot of the supply has become financially impractical?

TheWonderLlama

yes it will. There is no doubt about that.

Gumbo

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I'd like to see a test case as well, but I suspect the days of Paddy Irishman heading uo to NI or taking the ferry and importing a car are gone


Given there seems to be a fair amount of paperwork involved, I imagine anyone looking to import will need to go through a proffessional vehicle importer

Its done online prior to turning up at your VRT Appointment.
It doesn't appear to add that much paperwork, other than an increased cost.

Gumbo

NIMAN wrote: »

And surely all this will push up the price of cars in Ireland, now that a lot of the supply has become financially impractical?

It already has.

I know of many second hand cars already gone up and getting additional money on sale.
BMW F10, good examples, E87 1 Series coupe.
Now that people will still compare Irish cars to the cost of getting one from the UK, I think Irish cars will level or increase in some cases.