This week's EV bargain that I'm not buying

goz83

The battery lease would be a deal breaker for me. Renault haven't exactly been honorary boy scouts when it came to dealing with battery issues, or so I have read. The price is nothing short of amazing for the car, so if you are happy enough with the lease on the battery, go ahead. PM me down the line when you're selling the car and I will probably buy it.....without the lease :pac:

The battery would be insured in the case of theft/damage I would imagine.

mr chips

Well, there's the thing really. I don't know whether there's a way to just pull the trigger on the battery lease - say I just want to take the car off the road for six months for some reason, or try to sell it but can't even give it away and I'm just stuck with it. Is there a fixed-term option on the battery lease? Haven't found anything on the Renault website, yet ...

isnottheword

mr chips wrote: »

Is there a fixed-term option on the battery lease? Haven't found anything on the Renault website, yet ...

Has been discussed (possibly elsewhere) previously. If they won't lift it on the Fluence, then that says it all!

It's a ludicrous situation to impose battery lease on older cars.

mr chips

Right, in that case I'll have to forget about it.  I'm not committing myself to a never-ending debt cycle.

Shefwedfan

mr chips wrote: »

Right, in that case I'll have to forget about it. I'm not committing myself to a never-ending debt cycle.

Correct me if I am wrong but if you pay the battery lease you can get them to slot in newest battery technology?

unkel

Not quite. You can demand a new battery if the battery degradation gets to a point (it's guaranteed as long as you pay the lease)

You DO have the option though to get an upgraded battery at a far reduced price (iirc €3k instead of €10k to go 41kWh, but don't pin me down on these figures). You will have to pay more lease after though. Something you can look into, mr chips

mr chips

Perhaps, but that looks like committing myself to either keeping the car longer than I might wish to, or possibly incurring a big bill to upgrade further down the line for no real benefit to me, seeing as this wouldn't ever need to be any more than a short-ish range commuting car. (For the foreseeable I'll have to stick with the ICE for longer trips regardless, as several times a year I do 275 miles each way, and it'll be a while before any EVs in my price bracket will do that with a sub-30 minute recharge en route!)

If the Zoe contract was a fixed-term lease for three years, after which I could either choose to keep the battery (at 7-8years old and at my own risk for diminishing range until the car reaches the end of its useful life) or e.g. choose to lease another one at the same or lower price for restoring original range, that might be different. However if it's something over whose termination I have no control, I could end up stuck with an unsellable car. That's not a risk I'm happy with.

mr chips

PS I was drafting that reply to Shefwedfan and hadn't seen unkel's response above mine.

unkel

mr chips wrote: »

However if it's something over whose termination I have no control, I could end up stuck with an unsellable car. That's not a risk I'm happy with.

Yep. And that's why you can now pick up a Zoe (which at least can half fast charge) for £2,5k

Which effectively makes a Fluence (with an appalling range of about 70km and no fast charging) worthless. Some lads were trying to sell some at the start of the year for £2k but weren't going anywhere

These Fluences (and the Zoe is nearly there too) only have use for someone either for taking out the battery (home storage) of for someone new buying the car (so not being part of the lease contract) who will not pay for battery lease and see what happens. I'm not promoting anything illegal here, it's a bit of a grey area, no one seems to know what would happen if someone tried this

goz83

afaik, the battery lease is fixed term, but you have to sign a new lease at the end of the fixed term, or risk having the battery lifted. In reality, I can't see them doing it on an old battery, but it is a risk. They would probably settle on a purchase agreement, but there is no guarantee. If it were me and they insisted on an ongoing lease on a degrading battery, I would invite them over to collect it. The car would stay though....because that would be my property.

unkel

Ah FFS will someone give this a try

Offer me a Fluence for €500 and I might

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Ah FFS will someone give this a try

Offer me a Fluence for €500 and I might

There's a report on one of the UK EV forums of someone trying to (I won't disclose the methodology here lest the moderator not like it - if it's ok to state please let me know) disable the monitoring of the car shall we say, in a fluence, and not paying the battery lease, and he claimed it was successful.

It's a legal grey area as you say, an indefinite lease for a 100-120km range car with no fast charging is probably nigh on unenforceable.

unkel

Googling a bit and it looks like the current owner of the car (paying the battery lease) will still be responsible for the battery lease forever (not just until the end of the lease term), unless the lease is transferred or the car is traded back into the Renault dealership. Or the new owner pays out the lease to Renault. Which makes sense.

I wouldn't want to go over to the UK, buy that Zoe, and then for the previous owner to find out he's still being stung for the lease. That wouldn't be right. Alas, a plan was forming in my head. Mission aborted

goz83

unkel wrote: »

Googling a bit and it looks like the current owner of the car (paying the battery lease) will still be responsible for the battery lease forever (not just until the end of the lease term), unless the lease is transferred or the car is traded back into the Renault dealership. Or the new owner pays out the lease to Renault. Which makes sense.

I wouldn't want to go over to the UK, buy that Zoe, and then for the previous owner to find out he's still being stung for the lease. That wouldn't be right. Alas, a plan was forming in my head. Mission aborted

Zoe seller: "Hello Mr Bank Manager. Can ya cancel that renault direct debit please? I sold the car today".

Bank manager: "Sure thing Joe. Sure thing".

We talked about this before, but another thing is that renault can't make it the legal responsibility of the car owner to transfer the lease, because there is no way to verify the buyers bank details or most other details. It turns a normal sale on its head because of these battery leases. It's a very grey area.

ELM327

Don't even need to give a reason, under sepa rules you can not only cancel it without reason but can request a reversal of the last 8 weeks without reason.

unkel

You can cancel all you like, but you're still under contract. Not a grey area at all. Renault Finance would come after the seller. And enforcement in these situations seems to be stronger in the UK than it is here. And even if they don't enforce / follow through, your credit rating would be affected.

The grey area is what are the legalities for the new owner. Worst case scenario I guess is that Renault Finance (owner of the battery) can de-activate the battery or demand the battery back. This would worry me a lot less as the buyer than I would be as the seller.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

You can cancel all you like, but you're still under contract. Not a grey area at all. Renault Finance would come after the seller. And enforcement in these situations seems to be stronger in the UK than it is here. And even if they don't enforce / follow through, your credit rating would be affected.

The grey area is what are the legalities for the new owner. Worst case scenario I guess is that Renault Finance (owner of the battery) can de-activate the battery or demand the battery back. This would worry me a lot less as the buyer than I would be as the seller.

If I buy a car second hand, I have no contract with RCI. Unless I decide to sign one that is.
They can try to deactivate the car.
But that is not always possible, if the car has no connectivity and/or has left the country.

jimmycrackcorm

unkel wrote:

And enforcement in these situations seems to be stronger in the UK than it is here. And even if they don't enforce / follow through, your credit rating would be affected.

Watch enough cant pay won't pay and you'll find out just how strong enforcement can be.

unkel

Indeed, but my point is that the previous owner does still have a contract. If he stops paying, he's in trouble. Makes no difference that he no longer owns the car

goz83

unkel wrote: »

Indeed, but my point is that the previous owner does still have a contract. If he stops paying, he's in trouble. Makes no difference that he no longer owns the car

seller beware!!!

Unfair contract stipulations me thinks. Interesting if a case ended up in court.

unkel

The one weak point for the finance company is when the battery lease has ended. That means contract finished, no more payments due. Sure you don't own the battery, but if you've at that stage sold the car, what will / can the finance company do?

isnottheword

ELM327 wrote: »

If I buy a car second hand, I have no contract with RCI. Unless I decide to sign one that is.
They can try to deactivate the car.
But that is not always possible, if the car has no connectivity and/or has left the country.

The seller may not sell it to you without you filling out the necessary paperwork in terms of the battery lease. I believe that to be the case with the dealerships. A private seller may not be up to speed....however, would that then mean that the poor guy gets rightly screwed? Wouldn't want that either.

goz83

isnottheword wrote: »

The seller may not sell it to you without you filling out the necessary paperwork in terms of the battery lease. I believe that to be the case with the dealerships. A private seller may not be up to speed....however, would that then mean that the poor guy gets rightly screwed? Wouldn't want that either.

I recall the terms indicating that the owner must not surrender control of the battery without a new buyer taking up a lease. However, a private seller hardly knows if the buyer has given correct information. As long as reasonable steps have been taken to follow the terms of the contract, the seller would have to be absolved of any further responsibilty, as there is no requirement for the seller to complete the full term of the contract after the car has been sold.

unkel

isnottheword wrote: »

The seller may not sell it to you without you filling out the necessary paperwork in terms of the battery lease. I believe that to be the case with the dealerships. A private seller may not be up to speed....however, would that then mean that the poor guy gets rightly screwed? Wouldn't want that either.

Couldn't agree more.

BTW I rang a major Renault dealer in the UK this afternoon and they confirmed that the seller has to fill in a change over of lease form

The only gap I can see here again is if the lease is up and the car leaves the jurisdiction

goz83

unkel wrote: »

Couldn't agree more.

BTW I rang a major Renault dealer in the UK this afternoon and they confirmed that the seller has to fill in a change over of lease form

The only gap I can see here again is if the lease is up and the car leaves the jurisdiction

I wonder if the lease just carries over, or a new one starts? That could make it more interesting.

unkel

goz83 wrote:

I wonder if the lease just carries over, or a new one starts? That could make it more interesting.

Can a lease just carry over without you signing anything?

this.lad

Made a note to never buy a car from any of you schysters.

goz83

unkel wrote: »

Can a lease just carry over without you signing anything?

What I meant is that you sign to take over the lease...whatever remains of it, rather than starting a new term.

goz83

this.lad wrote: »

Made a note to never buy a car from any of you schysters.

Good call. You'd never have a problem with any car I sell. Would be so boring :P

mr chips

goz83 wrote: »

unkel wrote: »

Can a lease just carry over without you signing anything?

What I meant is that you sign to take over the lease...whatever remains of it, rather than starting a new term.

But how long does a Zoe battery lease normally last?