This week's EV bargain that I'm not buying

sh81722

I think their biggest drawbacks are lack of charging over at over 3.7 kW and the Nissan LEAF mk 1 LMO battery cells that degrade worse than any other battery cell known to a mankind. Saving grace in Fluence is that you can't cook them there due to lack of rapid charging. Reliability seems ok actually and they are built by Samsung in South Korea.

And just in case you really think the Fluence is a bargain: It's not at 11k: At 2-3k battery owned like what Unkel bought theirs for, it would be great as a local car.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492858#Comment_119492858

Thats 5k overpriced at least.

Range 80km summer 60km winter, terrible deg (see owners groups), no longer supported by Renault. No fast (or even fast AC) charging. It's literally quicker to walk from Dublin to Cork/Galway/Kerry than it is to take a fluence EV. And that's not hyperbole. Check it on google maps!

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493036#Comment_119493036

I'll update my post just in case somebody really thinks it's a bargain. I just had a chuckle when I came across this ad.

Some other related ads (ahem) seem similar, i.e. the seller may be interested in trying their luck in water related activity that, if lucky, may net him a fine catch. This is pure speculation from my side, not fact based.

ELM327

Don't get me wrong I love a fluence (I really love silly EVs that are totally impractical) but it's a joke of a car if someone is expecting it to be a real car!

AndyBoBandy

There's nothing bargain about an €11k Fluence, especially when they were as low as ~€4k a few months back......

Didn't @unkel pick up a Fluence for peanuts?? Or maybe he's selling this, and will make a tidy profit on it......

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493064#Comment_119493064

No, I've been budging him to sell it to me for months, it's not his!

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119485962#Comment_119485962

I'm not a huge Tesla fan by any means, but that is very very tempting...

sh81722

The market is just maaad now. Last June I eventually sold our as new condition 181 L40 launch ed for 16k after Tesla had offered 14 as a trade in. Now the cheapest equivalent with twice the mileage is 22k, typical ones are 25-30k (the car cost ~30k new), and ELM327's Ioniq at 19k asking is an absolute bargain (somebody please buy it).

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/hyundai-ioniq/31864989

Unlike the Fluence I posted as a joke the Ioniq is a bargain in today's market.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119492979#Comment_119492979

Very reliable and very comfortable. Why do you think there are so many Fluence taxis? As an EV the drawback is that it is a Nissan Leaf underneath. No battery cooling at all which will have led to significant battery degradation over time (but now seems fairly stable). As ELM327 said, roughly 80km range summer and 60km winter. And no fast charging at all. But as this makes it a city car, in city traffic you could get more out of it quite easily and the range indicator is usually pessimistic. And be careful as these were all battery lease when new, you certainly don't want that. If you are thinking of buying one, go for one that is battery owned with the official letter from Renault RCI (Finance) that proves it

As for value, very hard to say. The €11k asking price is ridiculous. You'd have a newer Leaf for that, that can fast charge (very ugly car though, I'd find it hard to live with the looks of it and I'm not fussy). One thing is clear though, the Fluence Z.E. are actually going up in value. By my reckoning by about €100 per month. I have one. As new, top spec (window blinds and all), just 29k miles, taxed, NCT'd. Not using it at the moment, but it's an appreciating asset, so I am in no rush to sell. If someone came up to me today with €6k cash, I most certainly would not take that offer. But if they offered me €9k, I'd bite their hand off 😁

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493124#Comment_119493124

I spotted that yesterday alright and it's officially a very tempting buy. If I was for a market for a S, this is the one to go for.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493167#Comment_119493167

The sub 10k pickings are really slim pickings now. But even then 6k would be strong money for yours, and that 11k for the other car is insanity.

I can see where you are coming from though and it will take a while before the cars with over 20 kWh usable capacity drop down below 10k again. There was a time when you could pick and choose any (21.5 kWh usable when new) 3+ year old LEAF for 8/9k. But now only a selected few high mileage/highly degraded ones are there now.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493158#Comment_119493158

Thanks for the plug! I have a boardsie looking at her over the weekend and I'm optimistic of getting a deal done. Ideally I'd like it sold pretty quick as I plan to use the funds towards my PV install.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493167#Comment_119493167

Yes I tried offering you 6k for it so I can vouch for that not being accepted :P

Whenever it drops back down to 6k i'll pay you for it but it's not worth any more than that IMO. But that's to me as a joke/novelty/collector car, not as someone looking for a realistic second car option. I agree, if you get anywhere near 9k offered I'd bite the guys hands and arms off to take the deal!!

Red Silurian

https://www.carzone.ie/used-cars/volkswagen/golf/fpa/202207117674860?journey=Search

2018 (182) VW e-golf, 95,000km €23,500

The 1.6TDI golfs of similar age and mileage seem to be asking for around the €20k to €23k mark on carzone

ELM327

"Problem" with the egolf is it's a bit outdated in terms of range and tech. Other than the premium badge it hasnt got much going for it. Shorter range than L40/62/Ioniq28/38, slower charging (lower voltage) etc. I wouldnt reccomend one.

And I'm a VAG fan, having owned countless VAG cars including 5 mk4 golfs

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493158#Comment_119493158

You're right, the market is going a bit nuts, I bought a 182 L40 for 21,500 back in January. I thought it was only an ok-ish deal at the time... Looks like I got the bargain of the year now.

This ionic is very good value by today's standards as well

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493955#Comment_119493955

It's a 35.5kWh battery so range shouldn't be much less than a leaf40, and more than an ionic28

My comparison was only made with the ICE version but you can get Leaf40's and ionic28's for about the same price according to a carzone search

loopymum

I wonder what my 15reg leaf is worth now? I hung on to it when we got the ioniq so I was offered so little for it 18 months ago.

Sv model.

180 kms

78%SOH

steamsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493158#Comment_119493158

Hi - quick question here as I am new to EVs and know little about IONIQs. How can a 28KW battery get 150KM on the motorway? A 30KW leaf (11 bars) would do about 100Km in my experience at motorway speeds. Is there something in particular about the IONIQ that makes them more efficient relative to another EV with a similar battery? Any major drawbacks to this IONIQ model?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494088#Comment_119494088

Yes, everything. The Ioniq is the most aerodynamic in class, the Leaf the least. This is extremely important at motorway speeds (120km/h). Also the Ioniq's drivetrain is the most efficient of any EV ever made. The Leaf is about the worst. For these reasons you almost never see a Leaf drive at 120km/h on motorways. The range would be destroyed.

unkel

@ELM327 - "Whenever it drops back down to 6k i'll pay you for it but it's not worth any more than that IMO"

Maybe it shouldn't be worth that, but it is. Price is the equilibrium between demand and supply.

There is very, very limited supply of cheap EVs. And where we used to be able to get them in the UK, their prices are now even higher than here and you have to pay import duty, VRT and VAT to bring one in, so that route is squarely cut off. There is also no more supply coming in the near future. Next step up are cars like BMW i3, eGolf, new shape Nissan Leaf and Ioniq 28kWh and they are holding their value extremely well, it will be many, many years before any of those will hit €10k second hand

Demand on the other hand is booming and will only go further up. Everybody now wants an EV and tomorrow everybody and their wives will want one.

This will push prices of the cheapest EVs up further and further. If you can buy a nearly new battery owned Fluence now for €6k, go for it and see it go further up in value. If you want to see it drop back down to €6k, you might have to wait 5+ years, unless the market gets flooded before then with cheap Chinese EVs that cost only €10-15k new.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494088#Comment_119494088

The ioniq28 is super efficient. It has a 31kWh gross 28kWh net battery, meaning 28kWh are actually available to use. It's super slippery through the air. My best efficiency (at 30c going through blanch with the windows open no ac and rolling but not stopped traffic) was 7kWh/100km. My theoretical range was 400km that day. You can get over 200km quite easily, but 150km is the worst case, -15c with full heat on, in the rain, on the motorway etc

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494174#Comment_119494174

Right on all counts. I've no doubt that in the current market it's probably worth a chunk more. I've a space cleared in my garage for it beside one of the CEE plugs, whenever that day comes I'll be happy to take her!

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494006#Comment_119494006

Depending on the condition and general cleanliness it will be around 9k or even a bit more, when sold privately I'd say. The high mileage is bad but the fact that it's not a XE a bonus. It was probably a financially solid decision to hold on to it. Get it valeted before you sell as messy cars really turn people off.

The dealers are looking for up to 19k for a SVE 24kWh model (same price as what they sold new in late 2017 for a limited time) which is again lunacy.

unkel

You do see the occasional cheap Leaf coming by, there's a high miler tatty one with some bad scratches and with some other issues, no heating and no NCT on DD for just under €6k. If you can fix that cheaply and sell it next year with a new NCT again, you could probably sell it for more than it would have cost you

https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-2011/31846786?campaign=23

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494224#Comment_119494224

That's a bargain, and is in my saved list on DD depending on how the weekend goes with the Ioniq sale and a couple of other things I have planned.

sh81722

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494224#Comment_119494224

The old pre 132ish Japanese cars have the funky heater and LMO cells (unless the battery was changed under warranty) so best to be avoided unless you know exactly where you are heading. They also don't show the battery capacity as % so can be a bit nerve wrecking. A colleague used to have a 12-reg leaf and he was literally worried about driving from Dublin to Leixlip and back when the conditions were not ideal. I think his car was three capacity bars down (9/12). As a second car used locally not a problem but still a pain in the neck.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494255#Comment_119494255

All the Fluence Z.E. and all the Leafs pre 132ish as you say have the same problem. Some batteries have degraded more than others but once you get to know the car and are an experienced EV owner then you know how much you can get out of them. I've driven the Fluence from Lucan to up the Dublin mountains and back no bother with plenty to spare. Or from Lucan into Dublin city centre and back leaving with only a half full battery. But yes they are only really suitable as local cars. Perfect cheap second family car for most people though. The only reason I'd consider selling my Fluence now is that I have classic insurance now on the 1996 electric BMW, so will be using that from now on.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494244#Comment_119494244

GLWS!

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119493970#Comment_119493970

The newer eGolf that you describe has indeed the bigger battery and a WLTP range of about 200km, same as Ioniq. At motorway speeds the range is far less than Ioniq though because of poorer aerodynamics, probably about on a par with the new shape Leaf 40kWh

The older eGolf that ELM327 describes has a much smaller battery and a practical range probably even below the Leaf 30kWh

eGolfs, although of course never built as an EV from the ground up, are excellent cars though and they are holding their value very well, so wouldn't exactly ever describe them as bargains second hand.

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119494088#Comment_119494088

Ioniq will get 130km motorway range at above speed limit in winter. In summer it will go 160/170km+ with careful/slow driving getting 200+km.

As an owner here are downsides

Half the range of 60+kWh cars which as around 32,000 euro. This is important if you regularly go more than 130km trips as in winter you may need to stop to charge to get home, while with a longer range EV you don't.

Rear vision in rear view mirror has a bar on back window. They all have reversing camera and once you use this no issue, but annoying

UK imports have miles for speed and kilometers in small numbers. The miles cannot be hidden.

Drivers seat not as comfortable as a leaf (at least when I compared)

Some 171/172 are out of 5 year "everything warranty" but most have 7 year 200,000km battery warranty left. The cars don't tend to cause issues but there is the odd horror story of bad motors at high mileage etc.

If your spending 20K, consider spending 32k on a used Kia niro. That said as a second car or if you have a petrol or diesel second car in house you may be ok depending on your regular trips.

The leafs are a great car, but range at high speeds is not great. Charging rate on leafs is also quite a bit slower than ioniq 28kWh. All the cheaper leafs are now way overpriced compared to their range.