Downsizing for elderly

Denny_Crane

Pkiernan wrote: »

If you read my post you'll see I was referring to the idiotic post by the communist who thinks your relative should be taxed to force her to downsize.

The hardship being created in Dublin due to a myriad of factors needs to be fixed with a myriad of solutions. There is absolutely no reason for people to think it's a good idea to potter around in a four bedroom house in their eighties. Others have even suggested that the government should support, with public funds, converting such houses.

Your solution seems to be just to leave them too it. Having looked at houses in Dublin 8 when buying a couple of years ago I was taken a back at the state of some of them. People had obviously grown old, not able to do anything to the house and ended up living in appalling conditions.

While communism doesn't work neither does a non distributive system.

athtrasna

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Chuchote

Denny_Crane wrote: »

The hardship being created in Dublin due to a myriad of factors needs to be fixed with a myriad of solutions. There is absolutely no reason for people to think it's a good idea to potter around in a four bedroom house in their eighties.

Is it only in your eighties that you're not supposed to be one or few in a big house, or at all ages?

Someone in this neighbourhood has just got planning permission to extend a 97sq/m four-bed house to a monster of 197sq/m; there are two adults and a toddler living there. Should they too be forced to downsize?

The_Conductor

Chuchote wrote: »

Is it only in your eighties that you're not supposed to be one or few in a big house, or at all ages?

Someone in this neighbourhood has just got planning permission to extend a 97sq/m four-bed house to a monster of 197sq/m; there are two adults and a toddler living there. Should they too be forced to downsize?

That's entirely a discussion for a different thread- and not relevant to the OP and their issue.

AndrewJRenko

Chuchote wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'm really not sure that this situation would be a priority for State funding to address.

Could cut the housing problem considerably, though.

Would it really? Is it really a good thing in the long term to be structurally subdividing family homes?

AndrewJRenko

Chuchote wrote: »

One problem with this is that she'll be crucified with stamp duty - if the government wanted to release a lot of big houses for families they could offer a deal where stamp duty was written off for elderly people downsizing. But it still sounds like a better deal than renting in Gorey, where she probably knows no one. Gorey's lovely if you're young, but I'd say could be a bit bleak for the old.

This is a good point. There is probably a long-term benefit for the State in keeping the person independent, and foregoing some one-off stamp duty would be a small price to pay to support this. There should be some exemption or netting off of stamp duty for these situations, within reason (no mansions please).

beauf

The_Conductor wrote: »

Build it then- as I said- high density units with access to amenities and facilities. You're selectively quoting some of my posts- but ignoring others.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post. It's just easier to read than quote whole paragraphs. Thats all.

Gael23

Selling really is the best solution but short of that the only other option I see is that she rents it and then uses that money to pay rent on her new home.

The_Conductor

Gael23 wrote: »

Selling really is the best solution but short of that the only other option I see is that she rents it and then uses that money to pay rent on her new home.

However, if the lady lives another 20 years- which is entirely possible- she may find herself homeless, with only her pension as income, and no home on which she can rely..........

I don't think renting somewhere else- running down her capital- is an answer.

Gael23

The_Conductor wrote: »

However, if the lady lives another 20 years- which is entirely possible- she may find herself homeless, with only her pension as income, and no home on which she can rely..........

I don't think renting somewhere else- running down her capital- is an answer.

She would be collecting rent on the home she owns and using it to pay rent on her new home

The_Conductor

Gael23 wrote: »

She would be collecting rent on the home she owns and using it to pay rent on her new home

It doesn't work that way though- you can't offset rental income- against rental outgoings- any rental income is taxable income. Once upon a time we allowed it- but a former Minister- Charlie McCreevy, did away with it.

Mrs OBumble

Gael23 wrote: »

She would be collecting rent on the home she owns and using it to pay rent on her new home

Which is fine if the rent she owns is large enough to cover:

• The rent of the property she's living in
• Tax due on the rental income she receives (yes, older people have a higher tax-credit than the rest of us - but there will still be tax due, at perhaps 33%)
• LPT, landlord's insurance, maintenance, accountancy and property management fees (for the rental - and also any residents association or management company - less likely in older houses, but will be an issue in future) on the rented-out property.

But in many cases it won't be large enough.


There's also the small matter of the uncertainty of the rental market due to the government's recent interventions. If landlords really do what many are considering and move all tenancies to period of shorter than 6 months, then renting is going to be a lot more horrible than it is now.

riclad

it Makes no sense renting, sell the house .buy a 2 bed bungalow ,
with a large bathroom.Rents are high in most urban area,s unless you buy
in a rural town,
They need to be close to shops, doctors, and a hospital .
Put the money left over into a long term savings account.

The_Conductor

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Which is fine if the rent she owns is large enough to cover:

• The rent of the property she's living in
  

etc etc

What happens if she has an overholding tenant who refuses to pay rent- and she is forced to go through the motions and is a year or longer without rent- what does she do then? This is not an unusual scenario- it happens every day of the week up and down the country......

hytrogen

Lumen wrote:

IMO there's a bit of moral duty of offspring to help their parents mentally adjust in this situation by making clear that they don't feel they have any kind of right over the property or proceeds from it. "You bought it, it's yours to use as you see fit, we'll love and support you whatever you do". Even if they don't feel that way.

beauf wrote:

Oh definitely. But some might see it as a solution to one problem, young family in a small apartment, single older person in a large house. Considering the was mention of a "swap". But that has all sorts pitfalls. Not least that you are generally living in a place you can afford. If you are offered help to swap you should consider that the larger property might too much in tax, repairs and running costs for the younger family.

A friend tried that with his widowed father, take over the family home buy an apartment and holiday home for him with a mortgage on the home, but given the generation he was he wouldn't budge unless he was lifted out in a box which, sadly, he later was..

76544567

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There should be grants available for people in this situation.

For example, remodelling the house into two self contained units, one downstairs for the elderly person, and another upstairs.

The house stays in the family, the rent from the upstairs flat covers a gardener and a cleaner and a few bob to bump up the pension.

I'd love to do that with this house, as it also is too big for our needs now. Don't want to sell as I love the area and have terrific neighbours. I could not afford the cost of refurbishment though, and at my age I wouldn't get a mortgage either.

Stuck! But not unhappy really, would like the option.

We did exactly that with a house we bought about 5 years ago.
We split the house top and bottom, so had a two bed and a 1 bed apartments, but technically it was two sections of the one house.
Either party could lock or leave open their half of the house to their "housemates".
We stayed in the two bed part ourselves for about two years as I was working nearby at the time, and rented the one bed part, which more than paid the mortgage for the whole house.
For another year after we moved away for work we rented the two bed half and left the one bed half empty and used it ourselves when we needed to stay there.
Eventually we ended up renting the split house as two separate units since then. Basically we rent the whole house to one person and they can sublet half of the house to another person if they want.
They could also do airbnb if they wanted. I leave it up to them what they want to do with it as they are technically paying me themselves for the entire house monthly. I dare say they are making a little profit themselves on it at the moment too.

The reason I say this is that its not as expensive as you might think and it would certainly work if it was family in the two halves of the house.
In our case we considered splitting into two sides, but the better layout for splitting was one above and one below.
In the end it was a small stud wall in the hall with two new inside doors.
Then a plumber and electrician kitted out the new kitchen and living room areas and then we had to separate coin meters, so that everyone was paying for the electricity they used themselves.
Along with a few minor changes, that was basically it.
We had quotes from an architect that would send a rocket to the moon.
In the end we went with an engineer who designed and drew it for €500.
All of the changes came in at €3500 and that included fully kitting out the new kitchen. Im sure there are more expensive options too if you wanted, but it can be done easily.

I probably havent explained that properly (hangover), but if you need to know anything else let me know and i'll try to clear it up.
It was easily done in about two weeks with minimal disruption.

With regards to an elderly person though, just an option if she doesnt want to move from her house. Remember she has a whole lifetime invested in that particular area. If you or another relative moved into a split house you could have free rent in return for just being around and maybe pay for the renovations in return. You wouldnt even need to see each other day to day, but it would enable the person to continue to live in the area around their friends and life. When they pass on then the house could be put back easily and sold, or maybe left as is an rented. There would be options. In my opinion the most important thing for the elderly is that they are allowed to enjoy their life and not be disrupted by moving away from it.

amtc

In Australia you can go into a retirement home from 45. They've marketed as lifestyle villages.

bleary

One concern in selling and having a large pot of cash would be eligibility for the fair deal scheme. I can't remember the limits but ppr is not included in assessment afaik though a charge against it is made ,so one way or another I would ensure she maintains some home of her own. Preferably one as comfortable and convenient as possible

Graces7

okiss wrote: »

I would agree here what the other posts have said.

This lady would be better off selling the family home.
I know she may not want to do this but why is she living in place that is not suitable for her needs. She may be on a limited income so she can't afford to to enjoy her life ie charge a car or have an odd holiday due to the cost of maintaining this house.

If she sells the house, she can buy an apartment or bunglow and have a wet room ect. She will have lower bills and still have savings. She can enjoy her life and go on holidays ect when her health is still good.
No one is wishing her poor health ect but for some people they can end up with poor health or life limiting health conditions as they get older.

It is her HOME simply.. Let her decide. We old wans need familiarity.

I am having to move after less than five years here as my landlord needs to sell the house and it is hard hard going, I know the neighbourhood, love it....

Multiply that by many times.... She needs her home.

Graham

Graces7 wrote: »

It is her HOME simply.. Let her decide. We old wans need familiarity.

This particular 'wan' apparently doesn't:

Zenify wrote: »

She now wants to move into an apartment. She does not want to sell the house as it's been in the family for a long time but it looks like this will be her only option to afford apartment living.

The crux of the question appears to be how to buy an apartment without selling the house.

currants

Graham wrote: »

This particular 'wan' apparently doesn't:



The crux of the question appears to be how to buy an apartment without selling the house.

I'd imagine she only wants the apartment as she recognises the house and gardens are too much for her. I think a reversible split like 76 did is a great idea, she could have a nice new kitchen and somebody else gets half a large house and a big garden, it would have to be the right person/people though. Most city dwellers have no idea of the ongoing maintenance a big house/garden needs to keep it looking good.
I lived in a similar set up years ago, it worked well as we both respected each other's boundaries and I'm not talking about the physical ones. I had to get rid of one flatmate as she thought nothing of barging around at night with big heavy shoes on, banging doors etc and using the communal washer and dryer on the other person's days. Some people get it, some don't, no matter what they promise before moving in.

Graham

currants wrote: »

I'd imagine she only wants the apartment as she recognises the house and gardens are too much for her. I think a reversible split like 76 did is a great idea

It sounds like none of the family actually want it, never mind want to share it.

The_Conductor

currants wrote: »

I'd imagine she only wants the apartment as she recognises the house and gardens are too much for her. I think a reversible split like 76 did is a great idea, she could have a nice new kitchen and somebody else gets half a large house and a big garden, it would have to be the right person/people though. Most city dwellers have no idea of the ongoing maintenance a big house/garden needs to keep it looking good.
I lived in a similar set up years ago, it worked well as we both respected each other's boundaries and I'm not talking about the physical ones. I had to get rid of one flatmate as she thought nothing of barging around at night with big heavy shoes on, banging doors etc and using the communal washer and dryer on the other person's days. Some people get it, some don't, no matter what they promise before moving in.

Its highly unlikely you'll get two parties who will adhere to the personal boundaries of the other person 100%- and in situations like this- very often one party may feel they are compromising to an undue extent, and that the other person is pushing boundaries they have no right to- which can end in acrimony.

Add to all of this- if one family member moves into the property with the elderly person- you are going to have random family members who you may not have seen in decades come out of the woodwork- as they will perceive the situation in an entirely different manner to that of either the elderly person, or the person who is sharing with them. Its related to the old truism- where there is a will, there is a relative.......... Its fraught with unhappy relatives- who are liable to make life a misery for both the elderly person- but also the person who moves in with them- even if they spend remarkable amounts of money making the elderly person as comfortable as possible in their own home.

The cleanest way of doing this- seeing as the elderly person has stated they would rather move into an apartment elsewhere- is to talk to them, and get some decent tax and inheritance planning advice- and see what the options are.

The elderly person does not want to stay in the property- this is to the fore.
They are also loathe to sell the property (which to be brutally honest- is the knux of the issue over and above any other considerations).

The OP- as they are not a child of the elderly person- does not have the same inheritance rights that a child would have- and is liable to have a rather interesting tax demand, if they do inherit the property (which may trigger selling it in its own right).

Everyone in the equation needs to be brutally honest with one another as to what they want- and then they all need to sit down with independent tax and inheritance consultants- and see how to make the whole lot work.

If the elderly person wanted to stay in the property and was being forced out of it- it would be one thing- but this patently is not the issue- they have come to the conclusion of their own volition that they want to move to a modern apartment- hell, they may even have been looking at properties for some time. It may not be the case that they'd even be happy with a remoddeling of their pre-existing home- this is not the issue as they see it- its how to finance an apartment elsewhere.

elperello

A temporary solution may help her to consider options without making a big decision she might regret later.

This place seems to be highly regarded - http://mcauleyplace.ie/

Spanish Eyes

<quote snipped>

That has given me food for thought!

I wonder if planning permission would be required to do this?

And if I did get the funds together to do it (it is not an immediate issue at the moment), the rental of the upstairs flat might just come within the rent a room scheme too. I must look up the T+Cs of that!

I do know that there are thousands of houses in the UK converted into flats like this.

Thanks for the information.

76544567

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

That has given me food for thought!

I wonder if planning permission would be required to do this?

And if I did get the funds together to do it (it is not an immediate issue at the moment), the rental of the upstairs flat might just come within the rent a room scheme too. I must look up the T+Cs of that!

I do know that there are thousands of houses in the UK converted into flats like this.

Thanks for the information.

Well you are just splitting the living area into two and sticking a kitchenette in that may or may not have been there. You are not actually making a new apartment, so no planning permission needed.
For the rent a room scheme you just take someone in and explain to them that all these rooms are theirs and all the others are yours.
Nothing specific needs to be said after that about going into each others areas, though technically it would be possible as you are sharing the house. Most sensible people understand this though and will keep to their area and leave you to yours.

Spanish Eyes

76544567 wrote: »

Well you are just splitting the living area into two and sticking a kitchenette in that may or may not have been there. You are not actually making a new apartment, so no planning permission needed.
For the rent a room scheme you just take someone in and explain to them that all these rooms are theirs and all the others are yours.
Nothing specific needs to be said after that about going into each others areas, though technically it would be possible as you are sharing the house. Most sensible people understand this though and will keep to their area and leave you to yours.

Well actually I would prefer to convert upstairs into a one bed flat. Currently three large bedrooms and a family bathroom/en suite there. I have great plans in my head, a dreamer for sure! For example, take down the stud wall between smallest and next bedroom to make a kitchen/living area. Third bed has ensuite, and the flat would also have a family bathroom.

Downstairs would require the addition of a new bathroom/wetroom for us! Plenty of room otherwise.

I just had a look at Revenue website, and a self contained flat DOES qualify for rent a room scheme provided it is within the main residence of the owner. Yay!

4.2 Self-contained unit
It is not possible to let an entire residence because the room or rooms that are let must
form part of the residence and the residence must be occupied by the individual
receiving the rent as his/her sole or main residence. The room or rooms can comprise
a self-contained unit within the residence such as a basement flat or a converted
garage attached to the residence. However, a self-contained unit that is adjacent to the
residence but not actually attached to it cannot qualify for the relief.


Now if that is not a no brainer for people living in a large house that is too big for them, I don't know what is. No taxes, no PRTB, easy evictions if things go south. It sounds perfect for anyone in this situation, for a small enough investment in the conversion.

Why is this not more popular! I guess there might be planning issues, but I don't know.

Anyway it's a thought to play around with over the New Year!

76544567

<quote snipped>

A lot of people once they are used to a certain sized house, just get used to it and dont ant to half their living area.
In our current house we use maybe 1/3 of it ourselves and some of the rooms we havent been in in over a year, but even though we did it before, slitting the house, even though it would be easy, does not appeal to us at the stage in life we are at now.
But if you feel you could do it then I say go for it, and from experience, it does not have to break the bank.

Graces7

Graham wrote: »

This particular 'wan' apparently doesn't:



The crux of the question appears to be how to buy an apartment without selling the house.

She has you sorted by the sound of it..

athtrasna

Graces7 wrote: »

She has you sorted by the sound of it..

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