Backseat mod warning

J.pilkington

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057685778/1/#post102071987

Referring to the above thread I would like to dispute an infraction given out by athtrasna for backseat modding.

Here is my case;
- I had a question which A. I knew fellow members could help me with and B. I knew that with the question being a very specific and topical one that this thread could prove a valuable resource for lots of other members
- I knew there was a risk that the thread could go down the road of an off topic conversation on tax so I specifically set out in the op that I would like tax to be kept away from the discussion in hand
- thread started off very well with exchange of very useful in topic information
- two posters then decided to hijack the thread and have a personal tit for tat about tax the very thing I asked not to be discussed as it is not an issue for me. Their replies are clearly an attempt from each of them to try and get the last word in
- at this stage the thread was losing its relevance, useful posts were being lost in the tit for tat so with it being a bank holiday (mods off)I posted a very polite request to stay on topic
- these two posters ignored my polite request and continued to have their argument, despite being frustrated I maintained decorum and rather than posting another request to stay on topic I reported their posts
- mod in question arrived in and infracted me and allowed the other posters continue their off topic argument
- at this stage the thread became less than useless

In fact another poster (stranger to me) pm'd me some advice(not against the charter and legal). I think this is an endorsement that some posters have poor faith in the course that the thread was being allowed to take

I have already contacted the mod who told me "It is not up to you to dictate how posters respond to your query. Please leave the moderation to the mods"

I'm surprised by the above sharply toned reply. Does an OP really have no right to try steer a thread back on topic, waiting for a mod intervention (let alone a fair one) can take some time by which time a thread may already be dead

Toots

Hi J.pilkington, I'll be looking into this for you.

First off, I just want to confirm that it's not an infraction, it's a warning - a yellow card. Secondly could I ask did you report any of these posts before asking posters to get back on topic, or was it only after the off-topic discussion continued that your reported the posts?

Thanks

J.pilkington

Toots wrote: »

Hi J.pilkington, I'll be looking into this for you.

First off, I just want to confirm that it's not an infraction, it's a warning - a yellow card. Secondly could I ask did you report any of these posts before asking posters to get back on topic, or was it only after the off-topic discussion continued that your reported the posts?

Thanks

Thanks for picking this up.

To be genuinely honest I can't remember the order of my post and reporting posts(I reported two around the same time). As stated the accommodation forum is bad for threads getting sidetracked due to petty arguments between 2 or 3 posters with each digging their heals in and a curcular argument going on and on. I feared this would happen in my thread hence asking to keep tax off the table. When 2 posters started their tit for tat I asked them to respect my request and politely explained why(that I was receiving useful replies). Other factors (as explained to the mod) were that the thread was going very well with useful discussion and with it being a bank holiday it was unclear when mod would be online to reply to my reported post.

I have read the charter several times and I really can not see where asking someone to stay on topic deserves such a penalty let alone a harsh one. One particular sentence stands out to me
" it should be noted that any poster who uses their common sense & abides by boards.ie rule #1, i.e., don't be a dick, will most likely never have to deal with any moderator in a bad way"
Instead here I am having to waste my time and plead my case over asking posters to respect my request to leave tax off the table.

I have since received some pms from the mod who seems to be moving the goal posts and stating the card was for attacking other posters when the initial card was for back seating modding as per their initial pm (I highlighted their exact words in the post above). I can send this communication on. It's an outrageous accusation and more use of offensive and very harsh language.

Regarding the type of warning, I do my best to obey the sites rules and my record speaks for itself so picking up what I believe is a very harsh / aggressive yellow is unfair.

This experience of accommodation sub forum has left a very sour taste in my mouth and I will no longer frequent / post on it. All I want is my record cleared.

Thanks again

Toots

Thanks for that. I've looked into it and received the PM's sent between yourself and the moderator. I've also read through the thread and the reported posts.

I'm upholding the warning for the following reasons:

1. From your first post here the impression I got was that the thread was veering wildly off topic, however having read it there were only 2 posts that mentioned tax, then you jumped in with your warning.
2. You reported the posts after you posted your warning. I could perhaps let it slide if you'd been reporting posts and nothing had been done, and you then asked people to try and answer your questions, however in this case it seems to be a pretty straightforward case of "backseat modding".

Boards is a discussion forum, sometimes threads will veer off topic slightly, however if this happens and you are concerned, then proper way to address it is to report the posts and let the mods take a look. In this case, there were 2 posts mentioning tax, and you responded on thread, then reported the posts an hour or so later. If you report a post, the mods of the forum are alerted, and so are the Cmods and Admins. If none of the mods pick it up, one of us will take a look.

As I said, I would perhaps understand had you reported it, and (after allowing a reasonable amount of time) had no response, the thread had gone completely off topic, and then you posted on the thread asking people to stop discussing tax. However, that's not what happened here.

So in conclusion, under the circumstances, I do feel that there was "backseat modding" and I am upholding the warning.

J.pilkington

I'm extremely disappointed that posters are treated this way. It was an overreaction from the mod, I rarely post on that sub forum so it's not as if I am continuously wasting mods time, and why not provide the usual bold request like most reasonable mods provide?

Can you show me where in the charter it mentions that backseat modding warrants a yellow. I honestly can't see it mentioned and I have never seen any harsh punishment in any other sub forum for a request to stay on topic, especially a polite one.

Why was the mod in question allowed to change their reason for the warning from back seat modding to attacking other posters?

Here is an example of the way the accommodation forum can veer off topic, serious infighting regarding a petty prtb judgement re a key which is of no use to the op. This is what I was fearful of. You will also note that the tit for tat remains undeleted which adds zero the thread other than clutters it.
http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057686519/1
You might note that it's the same handful of posters engaged in the tit for tat and they get away with it?

Again my thread was providing useful on topic info and it was a public holiday so how am I to know a reasonable time to wait? Should I have waited a day and allowed my thread to turn into the above thread?

I didn't even get my question answered in the end before the thread was locked. Not a great way to welcome a new poster is it? From this experience I wouldn't recommend anyone bother asking the community for help in that sub forum as the same users get to run riot.

I also think stating that I jumped in with a warning is incorrect. I asked posters to leave tax off the table and politely explained why. At no stage did I issue a "warning" which I would construe as a threat.

I am trying to be reasonable here. I respected the charter but yet I find myself her trying to clear what I perceive as an extremely harsh penalty for trying to avail of the community's help.

J.pilkington

Can I ask that you reconsider my appeal based on my latest reply.

I feel that my request to stay on topic is being misrepresented (mod who issued the warning changed their story to cover their tracks by saying that my post was an attack on other posters and it's also been referred to as a warning) and I can also see no reference in the charter to asking someone to respect the ops question worthy of a yellow card, the main part of the charter which I am drawn to is the text I quoted above, ie "don't be a dick" and you won't come to the attention of the mods and I have no idea how my post can be construed as "being a dick"

Toots

The issue is you didn't wait any time at all. You posted on the thread before you even tried reporting the posts. The backseat modding issue applies sitewide, some forums mention it specifically in their charters, others don't, because it is in the site rules (here) which apply to all forums. A yellow card is the lowest form of sanction you can receive, it's a 'slap on the wrist' so to speak.

If you wish, I can request an admin review on this.

J.pilkington

While I don't want to waste anyone's time further, this issue is important to me and may dictate whether I dedicate any further time to this community(please don't take this as a threat). so please can an admin review.

I believe you have not addressed a lot of the points which I have taken the time to raise and just focused on the post itself (and misrepresenting it as me warning another poster).

I remember reading on the feedback thread that there has been a noticeable improvement in moderation since the new management in that mods have more patience but from this experience I definitely don't think it's the case.

I honestly believe the mod here waved their hammer in an aggressive manner, a bold text would have been sufficient, and rather than reconsider when I pm'd them to save face they invented new accusations that I was attacking other posters.

If the yellow card stands then there is serious inconsistencies in the moderation of accommodation versus other forums, I have never seen a yellow card for my type of post in any other forum and to lash one out to a new poster for my type of post is poor form and can hardly be considered as welcoming.

Regarding a yellow card being low level sanction, while this is true it doesnt take away from the fact that it's an official sanction and a black mark on my account.

Thanks for your time

dudara

I can review for you. Can you please forward me the relevant PMs? Thanks

J.pilkington

Thank you, I have just pm'd you all correspondence between mod and myself

dudara

I can confirm that I have received them. Please give me some time to read through all the material

dudara

Firstly, thanks to all who shared their PMs with me as I looked into this dispute. I appreciate the quick interactions, even during the Christmas period.

After some internal debate, I have decided to uphold the yellow card as I do believe it was awarded correctly for back seat moderating. The simple fact is that you responded overtly on thread, calling out two posters attempting to steer discussion, and only later reported the posts.

The fact that you are well aware of how to use the RP function (85 results when I search for your name as a RP creator) shows that you know the correct course of action to take.

Any comment from you about other posters' behaviour is obscufating your own actions, and not relevant. My mandate in this DRP is to review your actions and the mod actions in so far as it relates to you.

J.pilkington

As I said I am disappointed and I think I'll be joining the hundreads of other positive posters who take an extended break from boards due to moderation.

I really can't understand how the accommodation sub forum has such a zero tolerance to posters requesting that a thread stay on topic, especially OPs. You will see from my posts that I mainly frequent motors, bargain alerts, iot and aviation. None of these enforce this rule and they function so much better than accommodation, a much more community feel with little of the bickering.

At the very least accommodation should clearly spell out their zero tolerance to this in their charter or go easy on new posters. I hope you can at least take this feedback on board.

I have no hard feelings with you and toots, I can see why you and toots sided with the mod, at the end of the day boards is a profit making company who needs the mods giving their free time so it doesn't make sense to undermine them by siding with posters but naturally there will be consequences from disgruntled posters moving on which in the long run will impacts on boards future

dudara

There are no hard feelings, but there is a regret that you did not act within the rules laid down on Boards. Back seat moderating is not tolerated, and as a frequent user of the RP function, you are not oblivious to this. Trying to get a final, subtle dig in is really not appreciated

dudara