How do people feel about this? 84 taximen to be asked for DNA samples in rapist hunt

hatrickpatrick

Sorry for the tabloidy thread title, character limits

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/84-dublin-taxi-drivers-dna-screened-after-passenger-alleges-rape-1.2918081

When I read the headline, my immediate reaction was to think of the Big Brotherish implications, but as it turns out the headline is quite misleading ("84 Dublin taxi drivers’ DNA screened after passenger alleges rape"). Under the law, nobody can be compelled to provide a DNA sample - it's entirely voluntary and merely makes it easier to be eliminated from the list of suspects for questioning, etc. And the DNA is deleted immediately after the specific investigation for which it was provided has been closed - so the Irish Times' characterisation of it as a "DNA database" is also pretty misleading.

All in all this seems to me to be a fantastic way of potentially proving one's innocence. Obviously if a DNA match is confirmed, then it would still have to go to trial, the issue of consent would have to be discussed and I presume if there are any doubts about the accuracy of DNA science (of which I know absolutely nothing, for all I know it could be 100% or like shooting pigeons in the dark) those would be brought up at trial as well.

In that context, it strikes me as odd that the law is still seen as contentious. Personally if I was accused of anything that I could be easily and quickly ruled out of by providing a DNA sample, I'd actually be quite relieved. It would be a totally different kettle of fish if the DNA was then stored in some sort of mass profiling database as the article's opening paragraphs erroneously suggest ("It is the first case of mass screening since the DNA database was introduced in the Republic in November 2015"), but this seems to be fairly clear cut (and I'd imagine if it was abused / this part of it was found to have been violated, it would be an EU law violation and could be taken up at the ECJ). Fears that the state may lie and actually build a database in secret would potentially be allayed by this - if such a database was ever used as evidence and therefore exposed to the public, I'd imagine the EU would come down on Ireland like a ton of bricks.

I would also imagine that its use would be restricted to cases of serious crime (rape, murder, assault causing harm) and wouldn't be allowed in the case of somebody allegedly stealing a packet of Tayto.

What do people think? Are the civil liberties fears well founded or is this a fantastic development both for victims and innocent suspects?

EDIT: On the issue of it being voluntary, one thing I don't know is whether refusing to provide a sample could be used as evidence of suspicion / having something to hide in court. We don't have an Irish mirror to the fifth amendment in Ireland as far as I know, so someone legally minded would have to chime in on this - is remaining silent regarded as something which can be used as evidence of hiding something?

Galwayguy35

If someone has nothing to hide then I see no problem giving a sample.

Damien360

If you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear. They are not going to use it for anything else.

People said the same about personal info but a quick look at Facebook and you could gather vast amounts of personal information about very many people and have a reasonable guess at the usual security questions for most other sites from that info. That is more dangerous and has greater implications for civil liberty with government bodies and corporations mining it for information as well as criminals.

king_of_inismac

If someone has nothing to hide then I see no problem giving a sample.

In an ideal world, this would be true. However, it assumes a benign judiciary and police service.

Only very recently the Gardai were found to be illegally recording supposedly-private out-going phone calls from Garda stations.

Atlantic Dawn

If they have the mobile phone numbers of the 84 drivers the mast data from the night in question would give them their man but I suppose the Gardai as always like to work harder not smarter.

Galway_Old_Man

Don't trust the system or the people involved so no, I wouldn't willingly provide a sample.

It's up to the Gardai to prove my guilt, not up to me to prove my innocence.

RobertKK

DNA tells so much about a person, it can be used to show that at least 83 taxi men are innocent.

king_of_inismac

Damien360 wrote: »

If you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear. They are not going to use it for anything else.

People said the same about personal info but a quick look at Facebook and you could gather vast amounts of personal information about very many people and have a reasonable guess at the usual security questions for most other sites from that info. That is more dangerous and has greater implications for civil liberty with government bodies and corporations mining it for information as well as criminals.

Might be worth reading this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument

Bruce Schneier, a computer security expert and cryptographer, expressed opposition, citing Cardinal Richelieu's statement "If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest man, I would find something in them to have him hanged", referring to how a state government can find aspects in a person's life in order to prosecute or blackmail that individual.[16] Schneier also argued "Too many wrongly characterize the debate as "security versus privacy." The real choice is liberty versus control."[16]

Kirby

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

If someone has nothing to hide then I see no problem giving a sample.

Damien360 wrote: »

If you have done nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear. They are not going to use it for anything else.

Thats an awful attitude to have. People should be, and rightfully and lawfully are, assumed innocent. A person shouldn't have to prove they are innocent of a crime, or "eliminate themselves as a suspect".

If I was asked to provide a DNA sample I would refuse. You have no idea what will happen with that sample. Mistakes happen, and more often, misconduct happens.

RobertKK

So would people be afraid to send their DNA off to let's say AncestryDNA or 23andMe for example for analysis?

colm_mcm

So if they looked for fingerprints, would that be an issue for those who would refuse to give DNA samples?

Kirby

Yes. You don't have to volunteer anything and every legal expert on the planet will advise you not to, whether you are innocent or guilty. It's always a mistake.

When they have sufficient evidence to legally compel you to, you have to give it. Until then, say no.

HellSquirrel

Kirby wrote: »

Thats an awful attitude to have. People should be, and rightfully and lawfully are, assumed innocent. A person shouldn't have to prove they are innocent of a crime, or "eliminate themselves as a suspect".

If I was asked to provide a DNA sample I would refuse. You have no idea what will happen with that sample. Mistakes happen, and more often, misconduct happens.

While I get what you're aiming for on that, in the absence of mind-reading, people are going to have to prove themselves innocent if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, be it by answering questions or giving an alibi or other means.

Crime investigation would pretty rapidly run up against a brick wall otherwise.

Galway_Old_Man

colm_mcm wrote: »

So if they looked for fingerprints, would that be an issue for those who would refuse to give DNA samples?

For me, yes. As said we're not living in a society where people are presumed guilty until proved otherwise.

Kirby

HellSquirrel wrote: »

While I get what you're aiming for on that, in the absence of mind-reading, people are going to have to prove themselves innocent if they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, be it by answering questions or giving an alibi or other means.

Crime investigation would pretty rapidly run up against a brick wall otherwise.

Absolutely 100% incorrect. It is not up to you to prove you are innocent. You have to answer no questions and if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it is nearly always advisable to say nothing.

Commotion Ocean

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

It's up to the Gardai to prove my guilt, not up to me to prove my innocence.

Unfortunately, under Irish law, it's up to the man to prove his innocence. Under Irish law, as soon as a woman names a man as a rapist, his name is made public and he is remanded in custody until he is proven innocent. The woman is the only one who can absolve the man.

RobertKK wrote: »

DNA tells so much about a person, it can be used to show that at least 83 taxi men are innocent.

There might even be 84 innocent taxi drivers, which I suspect may be thr case.

I dunno. It seems a bit like lazy policing. I'm quite sure that of the 84 taximen, the vast majority could be eliminated by classical policework (location, alibi etc), leaving a much smaller number to focus on.

Just thinking, this guy might not even have been a taxi driver at all - in which case eliminating 70 or 80 taxidrivers from the enquiry would have achieved little. There have been cases of rapists picking up victims under the guise of being taximen.

Also thinking... isn't this a situation where Uber would have an advantage as the locations of cabs are recorded.

Galwayguy35

Kirby wrote: »

Thats an awful attitude to have. People should be, and rightfully and lawfully are, assumed innocent. A person shouldn't have to prove they are innocent of a crime, or "eliminate themselves as a suspect".

If I was asked to provide a DNA sample I would refuse. You have no idea what will happen with that sample. Mistakes happen, and more often, misconduct happens.

It's not an awful attitude to have, I'll never be a rapist or murderer so if giving a sample to the Gardai saves them wasting time and helps them find the guilty party then that's a good thing.

RobertKK

I'm innocent, but...

I am not giving a DNA sample. It is like one is hiding something.

diomed

I would be happy to have my DNA in a national database, and to carry a national ID card.

Richard Hillman

I think it's part of your civic responsibility to help locate the suspect. If eliminating yourself from the inquiry helps, then so be it.

We've seen in Germany what happens when you fight police tools such as CCTV. The Berlin Truck Terrorist would have gotten away with it if he didn't leave his papers in the truck. If some people got their way, he wouldn't have had papers at all.

Atlantic Dawn

Surpised Gardaí gave the model and colour of the car in question to the media, now any taxi driver with a dark coloured 04-09 Toyota Prius has been labelled a rapist and this will have a negative effect on their earnings.

Will the Gardaí give those who do the DNA test a badge or perhaps an "I passed the rape DNA test" sticker for the back of their car to clear them from the others?

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Surpised Gardaí gave the model and colour of the car in question to the media, now any taxi driver with a dark coloured 04-09 Toyota Prius has been labelled a rapist and this will have a negative effect on their earnings. ?

I suspect that they are playing another game, the information released was so specific.

They may be gambling that, if the girls story is correct, the driver will sense that he will soon get an inevitable knock on his door from the Gardai, so will proactively hand himself in, alleging consent etc.

Commotion Ocean

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Surpised Gardaí gave the model and colour of the car in question to the media, now any taxi driver with a dark coloured 04-09 Toyota Prius has been labelled a rapist and this will have a negative effect on their earnings.

Will the Gardaí give those who do the DNA test a badge or perhaps an "I passed the rape DNA test" sticker for the back of their car to clear them from the others?

Many a man has had his name ruined when he was named publically, even though he was innocent. Like poor Ched Evans.

Avatar MIA

Kirby wrote: »

When they have sufficient evidence to legally compel you to, you have to give it. Until then, say no.

Me. Me. Me. Me.

Are you forgetting they are trying to catch a rapist? That's the whole point. They couldn't give a fiddlers about Joe Random.

Nomis21

I was driving a car belonging to a friend in Northern Ireland because he had a hangover. In a routine stop by PSNI the car was found to be uninsured and I was arrested and had my DNA taken along with fingerprints. I was given a piece of paper saying that my DNA would be added to the UK database and if my DNA was discovered even in 'The Vicinity' of a crime, I could be brought in for questioning.

That is the rules in UK. Do we really want that here?

Donal55

Have we even got a DNA lab here yet or are the samples still sent to Scotland?

beertons

diomed wrote: »

I would be happy to have my DNA in a national database, and to carry a national ID card.

This.

They should refuse to renew the psv licenses of the ones who don't cooperate.

hatrickpatrick

Nomis21 wrote: »

I was driving a car belonging to a friend in Northern Ireland because he had a hangover. In a routine stop by PSNI the car was found to be uninsured and I was arrested and had my DNA taken along with fingerprints. I was given a piece of paper saying that my DNA would be added to the UK database and if my DNA was discovered even in 'The Vicinity' of a crime, I could be brought in for questioning.

That is the rules in UK. Do we really want that here?

That's what I thought, but if you look at the linked article, it's very clear that no such permanent database is going to be created here. The UK has entirely jumped the shark in terms of becoming an Orwellian nightmare in recent years, I can't see Ireland ever following them down the hellish rabbit hole the Tories have pulled their country into.

pablo128

Nomis21 wrote: »

I was driving a car belonging to a friend in Northern Ireland because he had a hangover. In a routine stop by PSNI the car was found to be uninsured and I was arrested and had my DNA taken along with fingerprints. I was given a piece of paper saying that my DNA would be added to the UK database and if my DNA was discovered even in 'The Vicinity' of a crime, I could be brought in for questioning.

That is the rules in UK. Do we really want that here?

....and there have been irish people identified through the UK database too.

Ask any solicitor what you should volunteer to an garda siochana. To a man they will tell you - name, address and d.o.b. And nothing else.

Donal55

beertons wrote: »

This.

They should refuse to renew the psv licenses of the ones who don't cooperate.

Why? They are innocent until proven guilty.

GingerLily

I'd want to help the victim, and if that means making the investigation shorter by cooperating and providing DNA evidence then I would.

I respect though that it is a personal choice

Sand

RobertKK wrote: »

DNA tells so much about a person, it can be used to show that at least 83 taxi men are innocent.

In the words of Little Bill Daggett, innocent of what?

They're already presumed innocent. It is up to the state to put a case together. It is an important freedom, hard earned and not one to be given away lightly.

Kirby

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Me. Me. Me. Me.

Are you forgetting they are trying to catch a rapist? That's the whole point. They couldn't give a fiddlers about Joe Random.

If you are ever accused of a crime, I hope you will look back on this post and shake your head at your own naivety.

Avatar MIA

Kirby wrote: »

If you are ever accused of a crime, I hope you will look back on this post and shake your head at your own naivety.

Have you personally been a victim of a miscarriage of justice?

Of course it has happened, but car crashes don't stop me getting behind the wheel of a car.

If there is something I could do to narrow down a suspect for rape I would do it.

Sand

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Me. Me. Me. Me.

Are you forgetting they are trying to catch a rapist? That's the whole point. They couldn't give a fiddlers about Joe Random.

Then maybe they should be out trying to catch the rapist rather than bothering Joe Random for their DNA.

And can you, can you imagine 84 Taximen a day, I said 84 Taximen a day
walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

Nomis21

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

That's what I thought, but if you look at the linked article, it's very clear that no such permanent database is going to be created here. The UK has entirely jumped the shark in terms of becoming an Orwellian nightmare in recent years, I can't see Ireland ever following them down the hellish rabbit hole the Tories have pulled their country into.

I totally agree with you, but unfortunately Ireland is already going down that road. Ireland seems to follow many UK enforcement policies, albeit some years after implementation in UK. Brexit will increase this as there will be many requirements by UK forced on Ireland to preserve the Common Travel area.

For example UK has put pressure on Ireland to increase immigration controls in order to preserve the rights of Irish citizens living in UK after Brexit. This has resulted in increased harassment on entry to Ireland of visitors from countries such as Canada and Australia and refusal of entry in some cases. Something that was unforeseeable a few years ago.

Avatar MIA

Sand wrote: »

Then maybe they should be out trying to catch the rapist rather than bothering Joe Random for their DNA.

You see, there are lots of people in the world and those charged with finding culprits don't necessarily know who the alleged rapist might be.

If they did, they wouldn't need to bother Joe Random.

Minority Report was not real. It was a movie with paid actors.

pablo128

Avatar MIA wrote: »

You see, there are lots of people in the world and those charged with finding culprits don't necessarily know who the alleged rapist might be.

If they did, they wouldn't need to bother Joe Random.

Minority Report was not real. It was a movie with paid actors.

They have a database of taxis. That's 84 addresses that they, right now as we speak, should be knocking on the doors of.

Not giving suspects the chance to flee, or burn the car destroying evidence etc.

Avatar MIA

pablo128 wrote: »

They have a database of taxis. That's 84 addresses that they, right now as we speak, should be knocking on the doors of.

Not giving suspects the chance to flee, or burn the car destroying evidence etc.

If one of the taxidrivers was unfortunate enough to have a burned out car, then I think the Gardai's focus would be narrowed considerably.

Sleeper12

I'm all for it. As stated in other posts it's purely voluntary. Any of them can decline. No one's rights are being violated as far as I can see.
This sort of thing happens throughout the year for various cases. It's the slow news season & it would be unusual enough to ask for 80 voluntary samples for the one case but not unheard of.

pablo128

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If one of the taxidrivers was unfortunate enough to have a burned out car, then I think the Gardai's focus would be narrowed considerably.

....with the evidence up in smoke and the suspect after fleeing? Or maybe you think the guy will be overcome with guilt and hand himself in?

Avatar MIA

pablo128 wrote: »

....with the evidence up in smoke and the suspect after fleeing? Or maybe you think the guy will be overcome with guilt and hand himself in?

Evidence up in smoke? They have DNA. Is he going to cremate himself?

There's nothing stopping any suspect in any case from attempting to flee.

From the article 84 of nearly 100 taxi drivers have cooperated, that in itself narrows down the search to the approx 14 remaining that have not come forward so far. That alone, without processing the actual 84 samples, should free up man hours.

The more i think about this story, the more it seems to be kite-flying by the gardai, perhaps to stimulate the alleged rapist to hand himself in.

Of the 84, I'm sure maybe 60 could be eliminated by other methods, description, location, alibi etc etc. Certainly if the Gardai contacted me and I could show them firm evidence that it couldnt be me, and they still asked for DNA test I would refuse.

And who si to say it actually was a taximan at all, his car could have been 'borrowed' while he was at a function, for example.

pablo128

Deleted User wrote: »

The more i think about this story, the more it seems to be kite-flying by the gardai, perhaps to stimulate the alleged rapist to hand himself in.

Of the 84, I'm sure maybe 60 could be eliminated by other methods, description, location, alibi etc etc. Certainly if the Gardai contacted me and I could show them firm evidence that it couldnt be me, and they still asked for DNA test I would refuse.

And who si to say it actually was a taximan at all, his car could have been 'borrowed' while he was at a function, for example.

It could also be a Prius with taxi stickers, as opposed to a genuine taxi.

mikeoneilly

There was a famous case in the UK where all the men in a village were DNA tested

The murderer was eventually caught when a man let slip in a pub that he had taken the test for a work colleague.

Is this a common procedure to request mass DNA testing?

Sand

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Evidence up in smoke? They have DNA. Is he going to cremate himself?

There's nothing stopping any suspect in any case from attempting to flee.

From the article 84 of nearly 100 taxi drivers have cooperated, that in itself narrows down the search to the approx 14 remaining that have not come forward so far. That alone, without processing the actual 84 samples, should free up man hours.

Are you serious? They shouldn't even test the samples provided?

Avatar MIA

Sand wrote: »

Are you serious? They shouldn't even test the samples provided?

*sigh*

I'm on my holidays. Can't be bothered.

Grayson

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

If they have the mobile phone numbers of the 84 drivers the mast data from the night in question would give them their man but I suppose the Gardai as always like to work harder not smarter.

Would they not need a warrant and to prove suspicion to access that information.

Whereas asking for information doesn't require a warrant.

Sand

Avatar MIA wrote: »

*sigh*

I'm on my holidays. Can't be bothered.

Well, we can only hope the detective work is a hobby.