Why aren't more houses being built to deal with the shortage?

me_right_one

Simple answer - snobbery. There are thousands and thousands of empty houses in every village around the country, and more motorways than ever before. Certain people dont want to live in the country because its "a whole hour" away from dublin, and apparently it stinks. Suit yourselves in your rip-off shoeboxes then.

Denny_Crane

me_right_one wrote: »

Simple answer - snobbery. There are thousands and thousands of empty houses in every village around the country, and more motorways than ever before. Certain people dont want to live in the country because its "a whole hour" away from dublin, and apparently it stinks. Suit yourselves in your rip-off shoeboxes then.

There are plenty of affordable houses in Dublin that struggle to sell for the same reasons. However it might be 45 minutes into Dublin it's then another 90 to negotiate the M50 and get anywhere, not to mention most people working in Dublin don't have parking.

Jodotman

I can't find anywhere to rent in Kilkenny. On 38k and 27. Be the feck if I'm going to splash out 950 for a decent house to rent!

me_right_one

Denny_Crane wrote: »

There are plenty of affordable houses in Dublin that struggle to sell for the same reasons. However it might be 45 minutes into Dublin it's then another 90 to negotiate the M50 and get anywhere, not to mention most people working in Dublin don't have parking.

But sure thats par for the course! Unless you live in the IFSC, you're going to have to contend with the M50 every day. Thats life! (BTW We need more railways)

pablo128

me_right_one wrote: »

Simple answer - snobbery. There are thousands and thousands of empty houses in every village around the country, and more motorways than ever before. Certain people dont want to live in the country because its "a whole hour" away from dublin, and apparently it stinks. Suit yourselves in your rip-off shoeboxes then.

Its the 100 euro per car increase in fuel costs per week lad. 2 cars, 2 jobs in different parts of Dublin, and there's 200 per week extra in fuel and the child sitting in the back of the car for 2 hours plus per day.
And rest assured, if there were plenty of jobs where you live, the price of property would shoot up quicker than you could blink.

Idioteque

Donkeygonads wrote: »

Also, developers will only build if they can make a sizable profit per unit , but the central banks restrictions on mortgage lending means people can only borrow a limited amount so, developers say its not worth their while .

I'd love to know what that profit amount actually is though. Are they waiting for profits to return to the "2007 peak", the oft used phrase our great media establishment like referencing when talking about house prices or do the developers have a genuine fair profit amount in mind...

Denny_Crane

me_right_one wrote: »

But sure thats par for the course! Unless you live in the IFSC, you're going to have to contend with the M50 every day. Thats life! (BTW We need more railways)

Eh? Most of Dublin is accessible by public transport.

Cuddlesworth

Large estates take years to build. And everybody wants their cut of the finished pie but has no interest in taking on the risk. Basically if you build based on a per unit price that drops by 40% suddenly, while everybody involved for 5 years has been overcharging, the developer goes broke. High property prices have so many downsides and one of which is high property prices. Everybody involved in the project has to live in the area, has to pay the high rents and high cost of living, leading to a need for more wages and the cycle goes on. The prices rise rapidly, everything becomes more expensive, everybody ups their costs as a result, the build cost keeps rising and rising, the risk of a crash becomes higher and higher. The only difference between the last time and this time is the caution in lending to both sides, so the banks don't **** themselves again.

If you want to see a proper property market with building keeping track with the demand, then you need a stable and predictable property market over the long term(and sort out the planning/land holding).

Cuddlesworth

Denny_Crane wrote: »

Eh? Most of Dublin is accessible by public transport.

To the city centre. That should have run a light transit system down the middle of the M50 but its never going to happen now.

1st dalkey dalkey

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Large estates take years to build. And everybody wants their cut of the finished pie but has no interest in taking on the risk. Basically if you build based on a per unit price that drops by 40% suddenly, while everybody involved for 5 years has been overcharging, the developer goes broke. High property prices have so many downsides and one of which is high property prices. Everybody involved in the project has to live in the area, has to pay the high rents and high cost of living, leading to a need for more wages and the cycle goes on. The prices rise rapidly, everything becomes more expensive, everybody ups their costs as a result, the build cost keeps rising and rising, the risk of a crash becomes higher and higher. The only difference between the last time and this time is the caution in lending to both sides, so the banks don't **** themselves again.

If you want to see a proper property market with building keeping track with the demand, then you need a stable and predictable property market over the long term(and sort out the planning/land holding).

I would contend that we need a counter balance in the provision system. One that would increase provision, in times when the private sector either can't or wont, and decrease provision in times when the private sector is going well.
The only place that can come from is the State in some shape or form. The old Local Authority system worked well for decades. It was killed off by the greed of the politicians and developers. It needs to be re-introduced.

riclad

Sites are expensive ,builders need large sites.
Many of the landbanks were bought in the boom for millions .
A builder has to charge at least 200k for 1 house to make a profit.
Also finance is harder to get than it was in 2000 0r 2004.
IT seems to cost twice as much to build a house in ireland as it costs in northern ireland.
Alot of the building companys went out of business .
Maybe nama owns lots of the big sites .
i See cranes around the city centre , they seem to building new offices or student accomodation.
Not House,s .I think builders might say the profit on houses is not enough.
Alot of the money for building in the boom came from german banks .
Its probably easier to get a loan for one new office than to get money to build 50 houses .

ED E

Shelflife wrote: »

There's only a problem in the cities, down the country there are loads and I mean loads of empty houses.

Govt need to look a moving some of the new jobs to rural areas, 40 jobs in a rural area would be a huge boost and release some of the pressure on the city demands, multiply that by 10 and that's 400 houses freed up in the city, 400 houses filled in rural areas and a rejuvenated rural area.

Everyone wins !

Thats why we have thousands of houses in ghost estates right? Yeah. Sorry but nobody wants to live where you live. And its not snobbery, its a choice.


I'm in IT so I'll take HP as an example. HP cleaved themselves in half and left the Biz/CSR/Sales stuff in Dublin and Engineering in Galway. Now HP would be fine employer I'm sure but I and many like me will never apply to them. Just don't want to live in Galway. Thats Galway, try a smaller county town and you'll have empty desks throughout your building.

Same happens in the US, SF is stupid money but it persists because thats what people want. I'm sure Salt Lake City is much cheaper, but its not relevant.



The first thing we need is to fix the flat living problem. Look at Eastwall for example. All tiny cottages in a PRIME location. In Berlin that'd be all nice eight story family apartments. We need less sprawling nightmares like West Dublin and start building up a little (No, I'm not suggesting Dublin becomes NY, some rise not highrise).

road_high

Jodotman wrote: »

I can't find anywhere to rent in Kilkenny. On 38k and 27. Be the feck if I'm going to splash out 950 for a decent house to rent!

Kilkenny is a disaster. Outside of Dublin Cork, Galway and Dublin's inner commuter towns, it's easily one of the worst availability and highest prices.
Where are you living now?

endagibson

ED E wrote: »

Thats why we have thousands of houses in ghost estates right? Yeah. Sorry but nobody wants to live where you live. And its not snobbery, its a choice.

That's where we should put those "homeless" folks who have no such work worries because they don't.

riclad

Theres fast track planning in the docklands , good luck trying to get planning permission for an 8 storey block in east wall.I think there more empty sites
in the docklands , than in east wall.

The_Conductor

endagibson wrote: »

That's where we should put those "homeless" folks who have no such work worries because they don't.

Eh- so what you're advocating is we banish all the homeless to Carrick-on-Shannon and other regional areas that have an excess of housing units?

Sort of a form of ethnic cleansing............

me_right_one

ED E wrote: »

Thats why we have thousands of houses in ghost estates right? Yeah. Sorry but nobody wants to live where you live. And its not snobbery, its a choice.


I'm in IT so I'll take HP as an example. HP cleaved themselves in half and left the Biz/CSR/Sales stuff in Dublin and Engineering in Galway. Now HP would be fine employer I'm sure but I and many like me will never apply to them. Just don't want to live in Galway. Thats Galway, try a smaller county town and you'll have empty desks throughout your building.

You can be sorry all you like, it IS snobbery.

I know block layers who travel from Donegal to dublin every day to work. They usually stay for Monday and Tuesday nights, but they commute the rest of the week. And that job is a hell of a lot tougher than being "in IT".

You have no excuse. Travel like everyone else, or quit moaning about "not enough houses" just because they are not where YOU want them.

road_high

endagibson wrote: »

That's where we should put those "homeless" folks who have no such work worries because they don't.

Yep. If you're not working in the city, drawing welfare etc then I see no reason why they can't be offered housing in Longford if it's available. If you refuse it, tough luck and you're off the list. Sort yourself out after that. Sick of the nampy pampyisn to this ilk.

endagibson

The_Conductor wrote: »

Eh- so what you're advocating is we banish all the homeless to Carrick-on-Shannon and other regional areas that have an excess of housing units?

Sort of a form of ethnic cleansing............

I didn't mention any ethnic criteria.

If there are people in need of housing that don't have any workplace location constraints, then why not?

Shelflife

ED E wrote: »

Thats why we have thousands of houses in ghost estates right? Yeah. Sorry but nobody wants to live where you live. And its not snobbery, its a choice.


I'm in IT so I'll take HP as an example. HP cleaved themselves in half and left the Biz/CSR/Sales stuff in Dublin and Engineering in Galway. Now HP would be fine employer I'm sure but I and many like me will never apply to them. Just don't want to live in Galway. Thats Galway, try a smaller county town and you'll have empty desks throughout your building.

Same happens in the US, SF is stupid money but it persists because thats what people want. I'm sure Salt Lake City is much cheaper, but its not relevant.



The first thing we need is to fix the flat living problem. Look at Eastwall for example. All tiny cottages in a PRIME location. In Berlin that'd be all nice eight story family apartments. We need less sprawling nightmares like West Dublin and start building up a little (No, I'm not suggesting Dublin becomes NY, some rise not highrise).

I understand that not everyone wants to move, however if say an IT business is encouraged to set up in Mayo and there is a shortage of jobs then people will gravitate towards the jobs.

It may not be to everyone's liking, but many have reluctantly moved from rural areas to the cities in search of work.

TimeToShine

me_right_one wrote: »

You can be sorry all you like, it IS snobbery.

I know block layers who travel from Donegal to dublin every day to work. They usually stay for Monday and Tuesday nights, but they commute the rest of the week. And that job is a hell of a lot tougher than being "in IT".

You have no excuse. Travel like everyone else, or quit moaning about "not enough houses" just because they are not where YOU want them.

The only loser in your way of thinking is Ireland. The talent can and will leave the country if they think living in the capital isn't an option. Block layers aren't the demographic we are referring to, and to be frank what they are doing is lunacy and probably completely uneconomical.

You might not see it now but the country is changing. Millennials are realising slowly but surely that they have options besides getting a crazy mortgage and spending the rest of their lives paying it off. Their skills enable them to go anywhere in the world and ply their trade for far more money in far less restrictive conditions. This overpriced and downright ridiculous housing mentality will only continue for so long before those propping it up - the graduates and young professionals - decide to leave entirely because there is absolutely no value left in the market.

Geuze

ED E wrote: »

The first thing we need is to fix the flat living problem. Look at Eastwall for example. All tiny cottages in a PRIME location. In Berlin that'd be all nice eight story family apartments. We need less sprawling nightmares like West Dublin and start building up a little (No, I'm not suggesting Dublin becomes NY, some rise not highrise).

Yes.

There are 1-storey houses within 1km of OCS.

Unbelievable, but true.

They should be CPO-d in the national interest, and replaced with 6-8 storey blocks of apts.

myshirt

endagibson wrote: »

I didn't mention any ethnic criteria.

If there are people in need of housing that don't have any workplace location constraints, then why not?

What you are proposing is exactly that - an ethnic cleansing of the poor. It is back to the times of the pale.

Geuze

May 2012 housebuilding costs, provided by WalshAssociates

http://www.walsh-associates.ie/construction-cost-report-for-the-irish-home-builders-association/report-on-construction-cost-of-3-bedroomed-semi-detached-house-31-may-2012/

on behalf of the IHBA Irish Home Builders Association

http://www.walsh-associates.ie/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Report-On-Construction-Cost-of-3-Bedroomed-Semi-Detached-House-31-May-2012.pdf

Eric Cartman

The_Conductor wrote: »

Eh- so what you're advocating is we banish all the homeless to Carrick-on-Shannon and other regional areas that have an excess of housing units?

Sort of a form of ethnic cleansing............

you make it sound like its off to the gulags with them.

Lets face it, there are a large contingent of people in Ireland who will never work, have no desire to work and for some reason expect to live in dublin.

The only people who need to live in dublin are those who work there , if some people choose to live in dublin they can pay to do that, but there is absolutely no point in building any social housing or paying out RA etc.. to people who are not employed, have not been employed for a long time etc.. to be in dublin.

endagibson

myshirt wrote: »

What you are proposing is exactly that - an ethnic cleansing of the poor. It is back to the times of the pale.

That's your interpretation. I simply see no reason to consider easy access to work when deciding where to house people who don't work.

Please explain your reasoning for putting non-working people beside work locations at the expense of the people who actually do work and making them travel further and for longer.

Does that process have a snappy, evocative name?

Geuze

3-beds semi, 110 sqm

Here are the summary costs

Construction costs = 129,674

Other costs:
Financial Contributions and Local Authority Bonds (see notes on costing) €15,500
Part V Contribution to Local Authority €5,000
Showhouse/ Advertising & Marketing / Sales & legal Fees €8,000
Consultant Design Fees (excludes additional supervision) €6,200
Site & Building Finance €7,000

Margin of Risk: Amount to cover profit / sales variables (15%) = 25,706

House costs = 197k

This excludes 13.5% VAT and land costs.

myshirt

Eric, no place in this country should be the preserve of the rich, with the benefit of having the poor and downtrodden out of their sight.

In any country that is well governed and has wealth, people should be ashamed to be churning out that level of poverty. You have very limited understanding of macroeconomics and socioeconomics if you believe you are where you are solely because of your own efforts. You are not.

Eric Cartman

Geuze wrote: »

3-beds semi, 110 sqm

Here are the summary costs

Construction costs = 129,674

Other costs:
Financial Contributions and Local Authority Bonds (see notes on costing) €15,500
Part V Contribution to Local Authority €5,000
Showhouse/ Advertising & Marketing / Sales & legal Fees €8,000
Consultant Design Fees (excludes additional supervision) €6,200
Site & Building Finance €7,000

Margin of Risk: Amount to cover profit / sales variables (15%) = 25,706

House costs = 197k

This excludes 13.5% VAT and land costs.

So , if you could get a government backed 0% interest development finance package and you cut all the crap with contributions , VAT, LA bonds etc… you could build a house for €169,580 and still have the developer turn a 25k ish profit (minus land cost) , even taking a 220k cap (as the old CB rules were for a 10% deposit) that leaves 50k per site space for a 3 bed semi, you build 100 of them and thats 5 million quid of a land budget you have to build 100 3 bed semi's , you can get land even in dublin with enough space for 100 3 bed semi's for under 5 million ,

could easily profitably build a load of 3 bed semi's and sell them to FTB's for 220k if you just cut the government and local authority tax grab out of it.

developer makes 2.57 million
100 FTB's get a 3 bed semi for an affordable 220k
some land owner gets up to 5 million quid
builders and tradies get paid and work.
government has to do very little, eases rental and buying crisis.
Bank gets to hand out a load of very affordable, secure, stable mortgages that won't bankrupt people.
everyone except the tax man wins.

Mrs OBumble

myshirt wrote: »

What you are proposing is exactly that - an ethnic cleansing of the poor. It is back to the times of the pale.

Rubbish. Economic status is not the same as ethnicity.

Housing in areas with jobs should be prioritised for people who will and do work.