Anyone find the pheasant numbers down

Rimfire Shooter

Seen decent numbers of pheasants out there in my travels. Not as many as usual, granted. The biggest problem is the change in land use less root crops eg beet a big contributor & removal of roosting cover in a lot of areas. A bigger problem is a lot of current gun dogs are ****e. The breeding lines are all too closely bred from too small a pool of so called FTCH's especially ESS's & not proper hunting stock as they were years ago. Too easy to blame buzzards I reckon.

dodderangler

Giving out about buzzards killing released birds is like a trout angler giving out about pike eating released trout. Just can't win can ya huh!!

Tommyaya4

Without doubt buzzards are taken young wild pheasant poults but they are not the biggest problem to pheasant population we have given up releasing birds into certain areas as lack or cover and roosting means the land will simple not support a pheasant population it may hold a small number of birds but not a viable population for hunting I would agree that some of the so called hunting stock of Springer's are complete ****e and you will not hunt without a good dog It would be interesting to know what numbers of birds lads are putting out and what return they are getting we are starting a tagging system next year to see what returns we get from bought adult birds and reared poults

EPointer=Birdss

Have seen both sides of this.
I have two areas I shoot an hour by car apart & very different ground. Both have Buzzards.

Area 1 - years of development. Old farm style land, good ditches, game crop, hoppers, vermin control the works.
18 cocks met in 3 -4 hours yesterday. No rocket science. Have met 1 fox in 5 years whiles pheasant shooting.

Area 2 - Newer farms with huge fields. Big double ditches but little rush, Sally corners, game crop etc. I.e. 6" of grass or ditch generally. No development but birds realeased by myself in one area near the house for training dogs. I clipped foxes for a few weeks at time of release in the immediate area only.
7 cocks at the hopper in the field behind my house this morning. I can see it from my bedroom.
Meet foxes daily when pheasant shooting. At least every 2nd -3rd trip & that's what I see.

Now some interesting points.

Area 1 has some great land that houses Buzzards. Old bog, woods, big trees, rabbits etc. you'd be lucky to meet a pheasant up there this year. Same vermin control done there but counted 6 Buzzards one day. No clutches seen. However same place has had ditches cleared this year.

Area 2 I've experimented releasing birds in different ways.
Whenever released too early or too late they are screwed from night one. Any resident foxes will kop on & in days clean out the ground sleepers. Have witnessed this first hand more than once.
One farm also cleared ditches. No pheasants or woodcock as before.

Both areas have white pheasants put out as markers, both have lasted which I would of thought would be Buzzard magnets more so than
Foxes.

My synopsis on it is that Buzzards are more damaging to clutches than released birds. This long term is propbably more damaging due to the rapid decline in Wild hens for a healthy wild popilulation.
Released birds foxes are the biggest threat.
Couple all this with some shocking farming practices & birds of any variety with decline in an area in no time.

Not interested in a 'study' debate just sharing what I've witnessed...

I do enjoy seeing them & have had them drop off or land on trees over my head whiles at pheasants or pigeons. Have had them attack decoys.

Thoroughly enjoy seeing them so for me is there a discussion to be had about managing numbers. Yes at some point.
Is there a discussion to be had about Glas schemes & the likes, without doubt!
Is there a discussion to be had with lads that take & do nothing - how about handing in their license & taking up golf. These vermin have made me consider packing it in more than once. Had em in my back garden last year chasing birds.
Would prefer a buzzard or a fox any time!

Paullimerick

I hear people on about springers. All mine being the old type. Is there anyone with real good old type. Hard working ones around as mine gone old now and it's time to start thinking of new stock. Even cockers which I also like would be considered

Birdnuts

Tommyaya4 wrote: »

Without doubt buzzards are taken young wild pheasant poults but they are not the biggest problem to pheasant population we have given up releasing birds into certain areas as lack or cover and roosting means the land will simple not support a pheasant population it may hold a small number of birds but not a viable population for hunting I would agree that some of the so called hunting stock of Springer's are complete ****e and you will not hunt without a good dog It would be interesting to know what numbers of birds lads are putting out and what return they are getting we are starting a tagging system next year to see what returns we get from bought adult birds and reared poults

Don't think anyone disputes that buzzards take the odd poult. The issue is whether its a bigger factor than foxes, mink, disease, bad weather, lack of habitat, roadkill, dysfunctional gun clubs etc. The independent evidence to date would say clearly not since analysis of buzzard pellets suggest their feeding mainly on what most people would consider vermin like corvids and rodents. Anyway the gold standard of gamebird management in this country can be visited in Boora Co. Offaly were despite the presence of buzzards and other BOPs the partridge project there goes from strength to strength. Place has huge numbers of breeding Lapwing and other ground nesting birds along with a big population of hares that are as tame as sheep. Since the place is open to the public, folks can visit and see it for themselves. You can also talk to the gamekeeper there too when he's around - very sound lad and a real font of knowledge. The NARGC are involved too and have a piece on it on their webpage.

blackpearl

dodderangler wrote: »

Let's kill a Native bird of prey for the sake of a couple of tame pheasants? Yeah damn right I'm against it. Bad husbandry is the problem. Not the birds of prey. I've heard same comments and moans from lads who only pop up every November and feck off after January. Typical.

shoot foxs 1 night a week 12 months of the year other members trap mags and grey crows vermin very low in the clubs I am in except for buzzards.

blackpearl

dodderangler wrote: »

Another thing I find funny is that the same kind of people who blame everything on numbers being down are the same people shooting 5or 6 a day. Just can't get my head around some people

always stick to the bag limit in my clubs have dogs don't go round kicking the hedges like some.

blackpearl

dodderangler wrote: »

Buzzards are native. They were always a part of Irish countryside but were shot to extinction before the 1900s. They've since been bred in England and taken over to Ireland and released. They've more right to be here than pheasants which are a Asian species of game bird.

Why were they shot to extinction?Good reading from the NARGC general meeting about buzzards you will see a national cull inside the next year or two the sooner the better.

Tommyaya4

Birdnuts wrote: »

Don't think anyone disputes that buzzards take the odd poult. The issue is whether its a bigger factor than foxes, mink, disease, bad weather, lack of habitat, roadkill, dysfunctional gun clubs etc. The independent evidence to date would say clearly not since analysis of buzzard pellets suggest their feeding mainly on what most people would consider vermin like corvids and rodents. Anyway the gold standard of gamebird management in this country can be visited in Boora Co. Offaly were despite the presence of buzzards and other BOPs the partridge project there goes from strength to strength. Place has huge numbers of breeding Lapwing and other ground nesting birds along with a big population of hares that are as tame as sheep. Since the place is open to the public, folks can visit and see it for themselves. You can also talk to the gamekeeper there too when he's around - very sound lad and a real font of knowledge. The NARGC are involved too and have a piece on it on their webpage.

I don't think buzzards are the biggest problem there a far bigger factors to consider them just blaming buzzards

Kat1170

blackpearl wrote: »

Why were they shot to extinction?Good reading from the NARGC general meeting about buzzards you will see a national cull inside the next year or two the sooner the better.

There is only one reason any animal is shot to extinction ....... IGNORANCE :mad:

grassroot1

First of all my apologies to Birdnuts it seems there is an Irish word for buzzard
But lets not fall into the RSPB mantra of BOP above all others (raptorphilia) every bird species has a place in the enviroment.
I have a number species of Bop on my farm Peregrine,Kestrel,owls, Buzzard and occasionally a male hen harrier passes through,that said since the buzzards have arrived I dont see my peregrines. I like to see them so I suppose it cannot be said that I am anti raptor.
I think e pointer hit the nail on the head its the wild clutches of birds that are seem to be suffering most, I suspect that during the breeding season in summer rabbits are out and feeding and available as prey items to the buzzard. In winter the long nights mean the rabbits are not as easy to come by a pheasant picking on a stubble is one of the few prey species left. If a wild hen is taken at this time the results are worse than if a half a dozen poults are taken from the pen.
Population density again at what level do we decide that we have enough buzzards and when we get there what then.
Its interesting that the Duhallow findings are so different from the Scottish results.
With regard to ground nesting birds the disk mower cutting silage swaths anywhere from 10 foot to 30 foot at a time are killing far more than the Buzzard I suspect.
Again all I am asking for is the acceptance that Buzzards are having an impact. How much and at what level we will have to agree to disagree

Birdnuts

blackpearl wrote: »

Why were they shot to extinction?Good reading from the NARGC general meeting about buzzards you will see a national cull inside the next year or two the sooner the better.

So your a fan of extinction?? The Crane,Capercaille,Great Auk and Bittern were hunted to extinction too in this country, - no wonder the planets biodiversity is in trouble with mindsets like yours:rolleyes:

Even if a few misguided hotheads in the NARGC wanted to push this, they have no say on the matter when it comes to wildlife legislation in this country. Its up to the NPWS and the relevant minister as to what species have full protection or which can be culled. It must also meet with the approval of the EU birds and Habitats directive. Its made on a scientific basis not on wild claims on internet forums or idle pub talk. Shooting/hunting sports in this country face enough challenges for its future and popularity among the general public without hunting bodies pushing ill concieved nonsense like this

Birdnuts

grassroot1 wrote: »

I think e pointer hit the nail on the head its the wild clutches of birds that are seem to be suffering most, I suspect that during the breeding season in summer rabbits are out and feeding and available as prey items to the buzzard. In winter the long nights mean the rabbits are not as easy to come by a pheasant picking on a stubble is one of the few prey species left. If a wild hen is taken at this time the results are worse than if a half a dozen poults are taken from the pen.
Population density again at what level do we decide that we have enough buzzards and when we get there what then.
Its interesting that the Duhallow findings are so different from the Scottish results.
With regard to ground nesting birds the disk mower cutting silage swaths anywhere from 10 foot to 30 foot at a time are killing far more than the Buzzard I suspect.
Again all I am asking for is the acceptance that Buzzards are having an impact. How much and at what level we will have to agree to disagree

I never disputed that buzzards take the odd poult - what I am saying is that it is far down to the list of issues that pheasants(released or otherwise) face in this country and in no way justifies the hysteria and nonsense about removing protections from them that you hear from a minority of shooters/hunters.

I'll put it to you like this GR - the current hysteria about buzzards and pheasants among a minority of shooters is a bit like a man who just lost his wallet full of fifty notes out shopping, but is more worried about the jammed Euro coin he can't get back from the trolley shelter in the car park.

PS: Carrion is a big part of of buzzards diet especially in the winter and theres no shortage of road kill etc. to be had out there. Still plenty of corvids and pigeons about too in winter. At the end of the day buzzards are slow, lazy BOPS and are not particulary good hunters which is why they are not used in falconry - which says a lot. As for Buzzard density in this country. Its no different in suitable habitats then that what you'd see across their range in Europe. Indeed I've seen bigger numbers on my travels in places like France and Eastern Europe then what you see in the vast majority of this country.

Tommyaya4

Meet 5 cocks in 3 hours out today knocked 2 nice birds

grassroot1

Birdnuts wrote: »

I never disputed that buzzards take the odd poult - what I am saying is that it is far down to the list of issues that pheasants(released or otherwise) face in this country and in no way justifies the hysteria and nonsense about removing protections from them that you hear from a minority of shooters/hunters.

I'll put it to you like this GR - the current hysteria about buzzards and pheasants among a minority of shooters is a bit like a man who just lost his wallet full of fifty notes out shopping, but is more worried about the jammed Euro coin he can't get back from the trolley shelter in the car park.

PS: Carrion is a big part of of buzzards diet especially in the winter and theres no shortage of road kill etc. to be had out there. Still plenty of corvids and pigeons about too in winter. At the end of the day buzzards are slow, lazy BOPS and are not particulary good hunters which is why they are not used in falconry - which says a lot. As for Buzzard density in this country. Its no different in suitable habitats then that what you'd see across their range in Europe. Indeed I've seen bigger numbers on my travels in places like France and Eastern Europe then what you see in the vast majority of this country.

yes agreed hysteria but unless there is seen to be some sensible measure to control/manage the population jungle law will prevail
as regards carrion the fallen animals that would have been available now go to knackery.
I think you are quite right they are not good enough to hunt Corvids or woodpigeons so what can they hunt.
If you have seen higher populations than 9 buzzards to 18 acres that would seem high endeed.
Lastly we need the sensible people to engage before jungle law prevails

Birdnuts

grassroot1 wrote: »

yes agreed hysteria but unless there is seen to be some sensible measure to control/manage the population jungle law will prevail
as regards carrion the fallen animals that would have been available now go to knackery.
I think you are quite right they are not good enough to hunt Corvids or woodpigeons so what can they hunt.
If you have seen higher populations than 9 buzzards to 18 acres that would seem high endeed.
Lastly we need the sensible people to engage before jungle law prevails

Many knackeries have been shut and farmers have had increasing difficulties getting fallen livestock off their farm in the required time period. Indeed is was in the farming press only a few weeks ago about livestock carcasses being dumped in drains, bogs etc. around the country. Stock on remote commonages and mountains cannot be easily accessed either when they die. Then you've got deer grallochs, fox carcasses etc. left behind for scavangers . Plenty of roadkill to be had too. I also said that buzzards are not particulary good hunters, not that they couldn't hunt at all. You tried then to twist my words on the subject but have instead kinda contradicted yourself their with some of the claims you made about buzzards having an impact earlier in the thread.
As for jungle laws. We are all subject to laws, many of which we may not like. You seem to think laws should be changed at the whim of noisy minority, no matter if their case has any merit or not. If we went down that route when it comes to wildlife laws in this country, where would it end?? When the buzzards had gone, they'd be whinging about some other protected species and looking for more of the same.

As for 9 buzzards on 18acres - your not seriously suggesting they are all living off that?? Buzzards are territorial birds for much of the year and won't tolerate other buzzards in these areas during most of the year. What you probably witnessed is a post breeding flock, late in the year, feeding on worms in ploughed field(which they do a lot). These flocks are only temporary and are not permanent residents, and will soon be kicked out by the resident pair come early spring. The maximum density of buzzard pairs in ideal habitat in England is around 600 acres. Theirs no reason to believe Ireland would be any different.

Anyway I'm sure the OP of this thread would rather we agree to disagree on this subject instead of cluttering up his thread with more of the same. Its a pity nearly every thread on the subject of pheasants gets derailed in this way but there you go

blackpearl

grassroot1 wrote: »

First of all my apologies to Birdnuts it seems there is an Irish word for buzzard
But lets not fall into the RSPB mantra of BOP above all others (raptorphilia) every bird species has a place in the enviroment.
I have a number species of Bop on my farm Peregrine,Kestrel,owls, Buzzard and occasionally a male hen harrier passes through,that said since the buzzards have arrived I dont see my peregrines. I like to see them so I suppose it cannot be said that I am anti raptor.
I think e pointer hit the nail on the head its the wild clutches of birds that are seem to be suffering most, I suspect that during the breeding season in summer rabbits are out and feeding and available as prey items to the buzzard. In winter the long nights mean the rabbits are not as easy to come by a pheasant picking on a stubble is one of the few prey species left. If a wild hen is taken at this time the results are worse than if a half a dozen poults are taken from the pen.
Population density again at what level do we decide that we have enough buzzards and when we get there what then.
Its interesting that the Duhallow findings are so different from the Scottish results.
With regard to ground nesting birds the disk mower cutting silage swaths anywhere from 10 foot to 30 foot at a time are killing far more than the Buzzard I suspect.
Again all I am asking for is the acceptance that Buzzards are having an impact. How much and at what level we will have to agree to disagree

I have seen buzzards killing adult hen pheasants out in the open not in a pen, WHAT will it be next it was a sick bird or the bird was dead, one of them I seen the buzzard attack the hen a lot of flapping but the hen was killed. I am sick of people coming on here and defending buzzards they are a killing machine end of story.If a vote was taken in the morning between all the gun clubs it would be 90% in favour of a national cull.BRING IT ON.

Cass

Okay peoples.

The Mods have let this run for as long as is possible, but as usual once Buzzards are brought up the thread goes way, waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy off on a tangent.

Buzzards are fully protected. There is no shooting, snaring, trapping, hunting, relocating or anything of the sort to be done to them.

So can we move on please without the need for the thread to be closed.

Thanks.

Nekarsulm

Do folks on this forum not think that the growth in Pine Martin numbers is much more likely to be a cause of falling pheasant numbers than Buzzards?

Rimfire Shooter

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Do folks on this forum not think that the growth in Pine Martin numbers is much more likely to be a cause of falling pheasant numbers than Buzzards?

Nope.

More like th serious lack of vermin control & loss of habitat nationwide & maybe releasing technically "tame" birds who don't know how to survive in the wild don't help either.

useurowname

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Nope.

More like th serious lack of vermin control & loss of habitat nationwide & maybe releasing technically "tame" birds who don't know how to survive in the wild don't help either.

I'd have to agree, serious loss of habitat nationwide at the moment for pheasants to breed. Released birds ain't worth a damn to breed and increasingly lads are releasing adult birds (myself included for convenience) some weeks even days before they start shooting which have very limited ability to survive on the wild. I've also found Mallard and especially Snipe down this season also. All told it's been a poor season for me anyway.

Nekarsulm

Rimfire Shooter wrote: »

Nope.

More like the serious lack of vermin control & loss of habitat nationwide & maybe releasing technically "tame" birds who don't know how to survive in the wild don't help either.

Probably in many areas, but around here there is no better corvid control than there ever was, and yet everyone says birds are scarce. A few lads last Sunday were saying that really, there would want to be a year or two close on the shooting of pheasants to give them a chance to recover numbers.

All around here (Cavan) there are new parcels of forestry being planted.
Ten acres in one place, twenty in the next, fifty somewhere else etc. and once planted, they are seldom even walked in for the next seven or eight years, bar for a premium inspection, let alone trapped or beaten.

Base price

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Do folks on this forum not think that the growth in Pine Martin numbers is much more likely to be a cause of falling pheasant numbers than Buzzards?

I have only seen buzzards in my area (Longford) in the Summer months. There used to be plenty of wild pheasant around here during the Winter months feeding at cattle troughs and around the yard. I have not seen any in the last 3 years. Lads that I spoke to in the local gun clubs put it down to pine martin/mink.
On a positive note 2 hen pheasants were spotted in our wbc over Christmas. Hopefully with the continuation of GLAS-wbc/thm, ground nesting birds will have appropriate habitats to flourish along with restricted shooting/hunting.

Tommyaya4

We were out Sunday doing a club fox shoot on area that we have gotten back after years of no shooting 11 foxes were put out and 1 pheasant seen another area that we control vermin on all year round the lads holding the shooting line saw 1 fox about 7 woodcock 3 cocks and around 9 hens. But these are wild areas as I said before club has put a ban on releasing birds into some areas as these places won't hold birds also all our birds bought in or reared are released early and lads are dogging them they don't be long getting wild

Paullimerick

Do ye know ye could be right. Our area was always springer area. Now setter/ pointer area. Big fields. No cover anymore. But truth of the matter is I still want another springer lol love the surprise factor

dodderangler

More houses and apartments being built and moving a lot closer to my land. With one new land owner after building over 20 houses on his land that used to be gorse bush and nice area for rabbits and plenty of deer. Now all buried under the houses and was great berry trees around for pheasants and now all gone. Someone sees a buzzard and straight away jump onto the wagon and blame them. Rats would destroy more pheasant numbers than buzzards. Ground nesting birds and young chicks or poults are easily taken by vermin.
You see a hawk and assume it's a killer. A hawk will only kill what it needs to eat. Pine marten mink, foxes, rats and feral cats do a hell of a lot more damage. Go do pest control and quit moaning over a buzzard. Bad husbandry is the fault. Not a bird.

clawback07

Have I missed something ?
Have mink , grey crows ,rats, pine martens all become extinct ? Are the disappearing ditches , hedges ,corners of cover , ponds figments of my imagination ? Now it would appear that the obvious drop in pheasant numbers is down to one species of birds of prey ! I hope a national cull of any species never takes place , because if you are successful in your wish it will be another passenger pigeon next week . And meanwhile our green monoculture will march on bringing every thing down the road of no return - corncrake , curlew ,really wild pheasant ? Careful what you wish for .

Kat1170

I had a lad today tell me this week a Buzzard ''cut'' a hole in the roof netting of his pen, bite the heads off half a doz. hen Pheasants then fly back through the hole in the netting and fly away. Now when you have a grown man try to convince you this is the truth you have to wonder just what is going on in some peoples minds.

I'm sure Buzzards take the odd weak or sickly Pheasant, but the wholesale slaughter that some people would have you believe ??? Nope :rolleyes:

dodderangler

Kat1170 wrote: »

I had a lad today tell me this week a Buzzard ''cut'' a hole in the roof netting of his pen, bite the heads off half a doz. hen Pheasants then fly back through the hole in the netting and fly away. Now when you have a grown man try to convince you this is the truth you have to wonder just what is going on in some peoples minds.

I'm sure Buzzards take the odd weak or sickly Pheasant, but the wholesale slaughter that some people would have you believe ??? Nope :rolleyes:

I've heard of buzzards taking fully grown ewes and flying off with them and still be able to give the farmer the middle finger while being on the phone with his wing.
Some people will come up with anything for a cull.

As I said the same lads who tell tales like are the same lads that shoot 4-6 pheasants in a day and brag about it and moan next year when the numbers are down.