Irish citizenry rights in UK post Brexit

Charles Babbage

murphaph wrote: »

Not sure about that. Those NI Irish are also legally British citizens (whether they like it or not). Just because they get their passport from Dublin and not London (or wherever UK passports issue from) does not mean they are not British citizens. Plenty of brits living in England have no British passport either.

They could rescind the 1949 act, but I see no particular political advantage in doing so. The target of this control is places like Romania, where a lot of people come and few British people wish to go there. A certain amount of movement in these islands has been the background for 150 years, it isn't a live issue. The only danger is that gung ho measures might include the Irish without anyone having thought about it.

corny

murphaph wrote: »

Not sure about that. Those NI Irish are also legally British citizens (whether they like it or not). Just because they get their passport from Dublin and not London (or wherever UK passports issue from) does not mean they are not British citizens. Plenty of brits living in England have no British passport either.

They are not British citizens. The Good Friday agreement gives people in Northern Ireland the choice. They can be British, Irish or Both. They need not choose to be British citizens if they so desire.

LordSutch's point is valid.

murphaph

InTheTrees wrote: »

The possession of a passport is proof of citizenship.

Dual passport holders are dual citizens.

I could be wrong...

Actually passports don't necessarily prove citizenship as states issue passports to aliens in certain circumstances (eg refugees) and to be a citizen of a country you don't need to hold a passport from that country (my son for example is an Irish citizen but we have no paperwork from Ireland stating such as it's much easier to obtain a German passport in Germany than an Irish one, and it's cheaper lol) but dual citizens are dual citizens and are almost always considered to be citizens of the country they are in if they hold another citizenship, so Gerry Adams would be considered British in Belfast, British passport holder or not.

murphaph

corny wrote: »

They are not British citizens. The Good Friday agreement gives people in Northern Ireland the choice. They can be British, Irish or Both. They need not choose to be British citizens if they so desire.

LordSutch's point is valid.

It's not valid. You don't have to declare a citizenship and taking an Irish passport (not that the UK would know anything about it) is not a declaration of "I'm not a British citizen" so any laws that harm the rights of non-British citizens will not be applied to, for example Gerry Adams or any other person from NI entitled to British citizenship. Do you really think the UK is going to waste their time with this when any sane nationalist will just opt to be both British and Irish, as many sane unionists have already done The British government will assume everyone in NI entitled to do so will opt for dual citizenship. The British government can tell the difference between an Irish passport holder entitled to be a British citizen and an Irish passport holder who is not!

corny

murphaph wrote: »

It's not valid. You don't have to declare a citizenship and taking an Irish passport (not that the UK would know anything about it) is not a declaration of "I'm not a British citizen" so any laws that harm the rights of non-British citizens will not be applied to, for example Gerry Adams or any other person from NI entitled to British citizenship. Do you really think the UK is going to waste their time with this when any sane nationalist will just opt to be both British and Irish, as many sane unionists have already done The British government will assume everyone in NI entitled to do so will opt for dual citizenship. The British government can tell the difference between an Irish passport holder entitled to be a British citizen and an Irish passport holder who is not!

The GFA grants the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both". It directly deals with citizenship not the right to a passport.

Under those terms Gerry is not a British citizen if Gerry says he's not a British citizen. The British government agreed to such when they signed the document.

Given that are we to believe Westminster will harm Gerrys rights because they expect he'll do the 'sane' thing and just take up dual citizenship? Are you joking?

murphaph

corny wrote: »

The GFA grants the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both". It directly deals with citizenship not the right to a passport.

Under those terms Gerry is not a British citizen if Gerry says he's not a British citizen. The British government agreed to such when they signed the document.

Given that are we to believe Westminster will harm Gerrys rights because they expect he'll do the 'sane' thing and just take up dual citizenship? Are you joking?

You misunderstand. They will not harm his rights because he is entitled to British citizenship even if he states he isn't British. That's precisely what I was saying all along.

Peregrinus

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

The reason why it could be beneficial is simply that you can prove that you have lived in the UK for 5 years in the event of Brexit. You're right to say that you automatically qualify for permanent residence after 5 years but the PR card offers proof of that right. That could be useful if they impose a threshold.

Not really. In order to get the PR card you have to demonstrate five years of residence in the UK. If you can show that in order to get a PR card, then you can show that for any purpose useing the same evidence/documentation. You can skip the step (and expense) of getting a PR card.

solodeogloria wrote: »

It's also beneficial because you need a PR card before you can get citizenship if that's what you want.

No, you don't.

solodeogloria

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, you don't.

Good morning!

Yes you do according to new standards for evidence.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria