120k to invest in rental property ? Am i mad ?

Truthseeker31

Hello Boardies,

I'll keep this short and sweet, i am thinking of investing in a rental property in Dublin.

My plan is to purchase a 3 bed in Dublin for 210k with a 120k deposit and rent it out for the next 5 years before moving into it. I am 31 years old, currently live in a house share, income 42k, rent 400e per month, 1 child ( no longer see but pay for, 200e per month)

I don't expect to make a killing but i would still like to see a decent return > 200e per month. Is this approach viable ? I plan on moving into my own house in 5-6 years time anyway but i am also interested at putting my savings to work for me.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Jodotman

Not a good idea. The amount of BS now that landlords but up with and PTRB always favours the tenant.

Why not just buy the house and live there yourself and rent out some rooms for five or six years?

myshirt

If i had 120k i wouldnt be putting it into a rental property. It is not going to work hard for you there.

If anything, put it into a fund that holds commercial property in Dublin.

Ultimately, speak with an advisor, because 120k is a large chunk of change, you want to do it right. With interest rates on the floor aswell, did you know it actually costs the bank money to hold onto that for you.

DubCount

Dont think its a daft idea. You should consider living in the property yourself and renting out rooms individually. Your mortgage would be at owner occupier rates in stead of buy2let rates, and you could also earn up to €14k under the rent a room scheme tax free. This would also take away a lot of the tenant rights issues, dealing with the RTB etc.. I reckon the maths would work out better that way.

CPTM

Are there 3 beds going for 210k in Dublin at the mo? Where would you be looking to buy OP?

I suppose just throwing out the standard advice to make you consider the costs that a lot of people forget: Legal fees, stamp duty, income tax on rental income, property tax, maintenance fees for any wear/tear/renovations, Service charges.. They build up and sometimes take a lot longer to recoup than people expect.

Denny_Crane

Buy it and move into it immediately and rent out rooms. The law is so slanted too the tenant you could find yourself waiting years to move in when you finally decide to. Not only that you could find someone does tens of thousands worth of damage and doesn't pay rent. You need to keep a contingency fund available for legal costs etc.

If you want your own place though it's a great idea to find a 3 bed and rent two of the rooms. You can net €14000 a year from that with full tax relief meaning you keep every penny (you still need to declare it). At best renting a 3 bed semi you'd likely see about €24,000 gross rent with about €15,000 in your pocket. It simply can't be worth doing.

210ish will find you a place, if you can push it to around 250K you'd find a very nice place in North Dublin near the DART line. One of the mods here seems to think Kilbarrack is a good place :pac:

As others have said move in yourself and rent out some of the rooms. As you are happy to houseshare anyway this is a great option. Not only can you earn up to 14k tax free per year which will probably more than cover your mortgage if you can max it out but you also have far more control than in a normal houseshare as you can ask people to leave if you want with minimal notice etc etc.

Also don't use all your savings, keep at least 20 or 30k in a savings account.

Killergreene

Why don't all landlords pull a fast one so and claim to be living in a property and keep a room vacant for themselves and avoid all the bs of being a landlord then ?

athtrasna

That would be illegal.

Ste.phen

athtrasna wrote: »

That would be illegal.

And if revenue did even a cursory check they'd be caught pretty quickly, I imagine

davindub

Denny_Crane wrote: »

Buy it and move into it immediately and rent out rooms. The law is so slanted too the tenant you could find yourself waiting years to move in when you finally decide to. Not only that you could find someone does tens of thousands worth of damage and doesn't pay rent. You need to keep a contingency fund available for legal costs etc.

If you want your own place though it's a great idea to find a 3 bed and rent two of the rooms. You can net €14000 a year from that with full tax relief meaning you keep every penny (you still need to declare it). At best renting a 3 bed semi you'd likely see about €24,000 gross rent with about €15,000 in your pocket. It simply can't be worth doing.

210ish will find you a place, if you can push it to around 250K you'd find a very nice place in North Dublin near the DART line. One of the mods here seems to think Kilbarrack is a good place :pac:

Agreed. Buy to live in yourself and save in tax if you can.

You cannot buy a property in Kilbarrack anymore, you are forced to live in Raheny instead.

Denny_Crane

Killergreene wrote: »

Why don't all landlords pull a fast one so and claim to be living in a property and keep a room vacant for themselves and avoid all the bs of being a landlord then ?

Many do, however tenancies are a matter of fact not form. If your tenants decide to assert part IV rights best of luck.

Pkiernan

As a landlord myself, I don't think its a wise investment, not with the laws biased against landlords.

Firstly, your tenants will be able to stay for 6 years under new Part IV regulations.
If you are in Dublin, then you can wisely assume that the 3 year rent cap will remain indefinitely as this idiotic government continues to appease voters rather than solve the housing supply problem
The rent will be taxed at your marginal rate, so assume 51%.

If your tenants decide they are not going to pay rent, you are screwed, as you have no ability under law to swiftly evict deadbeat tenants.

Far better to put the money is a reasonably conservative mutual fund. You'll get 7% per year no problem, and will only pay 33% Capital Gains on that. No property tax, no call outs, no RTB bullsiit, no damage to your property....

My investments year to date (after fees but before CGT) in the London and Australian Stock Exchanges have returned 37% ytd, though about half of that was made from Brexit.
Next 4 years, the markets are only going up thanks to Trump.

hytrogen

Jaysus lads have to say we're all awfully doom & gloom here. Is there no shining light at the end of the tunnel or landlords revolt to match the populist movements to make it more attractive for first time investors?

Sleeper12

Truthseeker31 wrote:

I don't expect to make a killing but i would still like to see a decent return > 200e per month. Is this approach viable ? I plan on moving into my own house in 5-6 years time anyway but i am also interested at putting my savings to work for me.

I think this is a great idea. Even if you don't make a penny profit month by month you will have killed 5 years of the mortgage. This alone is a good return on the investment. The fact that you plan to move into it does away with any capital gains tax if you did sell further down the road.
As an investment on its own it might not be appealing to some investors but it's only part investment really if you plan to make it the family home eventually

Denny_Crane

hytrogen wrote: »

Jaysus lads have to say we're all awfully doom & gloom here. Is there no shining light at the end of the tunnel or landlords revolt to match the populist movements to make it more attractive for first time investors?

Landlords revolt by saying feck it and putting the money into things like those suggested by Comrade Pkiernan. For what ever reason tenants want to be dealing with huge companies, probably not paying Irish tax and until it's huge companies controlling rents here the government will continue to pander to tenants as there's a few votes in it.

willbur

Well as for myself I have been there done that and got the T shirt
The cheapest money you will ever get to borrow is a mortgage if the 120k is all the cash reserves that you have its never a good plan to locked away, if you're lucky enough to find a house for sale in dublin for 22000 it's probably going to need updating ie Electric plumbing central heating and insulation and maybe new windows painting little change out of 20k excluding a new kitchen and not telling the mortgage lenders that it's a buy to let which would add 2% to the loan cost but you would need landlord insurance the way to go is 220000 price deposit 70000 borrow 150000 over 35 years at LTV 70% ish repayments could be 670 a month, if the location is good and you are getting 1200 a month for five years with no hiccups and after five or six years when you move in you could do the same again and have a second house

Killergreene

Pkiernan wrote: »

As a landlord myself, I don't think its a wise investment, not with the laws biased against landlords.

Firstly, your tenants will be able to stay for 6 years under new Part IV regulations.
If you are in Dublin, then you can wisely assume that the 3 year rent cap will remain indefinitely as this idiotic government continues to appease voters rather than solve the housing supply problem
The rent will be taxed at your marginal rate, so assume 51%.

If your tenants decide they are not going to pay rent, you are screwed, as you have no ability under law to swiftly evict deadbeat tenants.

Far better to put the money is a reasonably conservative mutual fund. You'll get 7% per year no problem, and will only pay 33% Capital Gains on that. No property tax, no call outs, no RTB bullsiit, no damage to your property....

My investments year to date (after fees but before CGT) in the London and Australian Stock Exchanges have returned 37% ytd, though about half of that was made from Brexit.
Next 4 years, the markets are only going up thanks to Trump.

How did u pick your investments? For those with absolutely no knowledge of the markets where do we go.

Denny_Crane

Killergreene wrote: »

How did u pick your investments? For those with absolutely no knowledge of the markets where do we go.

Given the level of research done by the denizen (prospective) Landlords, the investment and markets forum.

ABC101

Getting into property as a landlord is risky. Property rental has become and continues to become more highly regulated.

The Govt controls how frequently rents can be increased, 24 months with 3 months notice = 27 months.

New legislation now introduced regulates by how much it can be increased by, 4%.

I am open to correction but I believe this effectively means 4% rise once every 27 months, which is approx 1.77% a year.

In addition costs have increased, LPT and so on, however the mortgage interest is increasing by 5% a year over the next number of years, so that is one positive.

The PRTB is about to commence inspections, which means landlords are at the mercy of getting hit for more costs. Fair enough about demanding substandard properties to be upgraded / improved etc.

But the risk of getting a bad tenant is still there, and as previously mentioned landlords get little or no support from the law.

benjamin d

Surely it's a no brainer to buy a place and move into it?

- potentially €14000 tax free rent
- your €400 current rent paid directly on your mortgage
- no tenant headaches by having licensees who have no rights to overstay their welcome
- no general tax headaches and arsing around
- you're fully in charge of your shared housemates

I don't see why you'd continue to rent in a house share if you can afford to buy a 3 bed, assuming it's in the same area. I'd love to be in your position.

robp

benjamin d wrote: »

Surely it's a no brainer to buy a place and move into it?

- potentially €14000 tax free rent
- your €400 current rent paid directly on your mortgage
- no tenant headaches by having licensees who have no rights to overstay their welcome
- no general tax headaches and arsing around
- you're fully in charge of your shared housemates

I don't see why you'd continue to rent in a house share if you can afford to buy a 3 bed, assuming it's in the same area. I'd love to be in your position.

In terms of maths it is a no brainer but not every renter wants to live with the owner so in theory the rent would have to be a bit lower and many applicants might be gone in summer as students. That been said all in all its the best for many.

Denny_Crane

robp wrote: »

In terms of maths it is a no brainer but not every renter wants to live with the owner so in theory the rent would have to be a bit lower and many applicants might be gone in summer as students. That been said all in all its the best for many.

Owner occupier here, absolutely no issue getting professional, medium term, tenants all year round. Not having a dig, just saying.

benjamin d

robp wrote: »

In terms of maths it is a no brainer but not every renter wants to live with the owner so in theory the rent would have to be a bit lower and many applicants might be gone in summer as students. That been said all in all its the best for many.

Yes there is that but I don't think it makes that huge a difference in the pressure areas these days, especially if the owner has the renter/house share mentality to begin with. I lived in a house share with an owner occupier before and it made no difference whatsoever because he was roughly my age and had similar interests, as opposed to having a room in a family home or the likes. Even if there is a difference, it's probably more than negated when you consider he's paying rent for a shared house at the minute.

I do want to clarify that in my previous post I sound like a typical boomtime "you're stupid not to buy" type, but in the OP's situation I think buying and moving in is the way to go.

hytrogen

Denny_Crane wrote:

Landlords revolt by saying feck it and putting the money into things like those suggested by Comrade Pkiernan. For what ever reason tenants want to be dealing with huge companies, probably not paying Irish tax and until it's huge companies controlling rents here the government will continue to pander to tenants as there's a few votes in it.

Ah yeah but cashing in is letting the government manipulate you into doing something you may not want or Can afford to if say you're stuck in massive negative equity and don't plan to retire on the funds released so soon and get stuck with a 0.25â„… deposit account for the next 10 years where you're present investments are returning a pre tax profit of say 5â„… or 10â„… per annum?
I'm speculating as devil's advocate

ligerdub

Rent a room seems like the best idea. It's certainly very tax efficient, and the money you receive will partially may off the mortgage.

This comment will disgust some, but rent a room occupants have less rights than if you rent out the house in full.

It seems like a no brainer.

newacc2015

hytrogen wrote: »

Jaysus lads have to say we're all awfully doom & gloom here. Is there no shining light at the end of the tunnel or landlords revolt to match the populist movements to make it more attractive for first time investors?

It is not just the opinion of people on boards. Sherry Fitz said about 40-45% of what they sell is BTL property and only about 20% of purchases are BTLs. So you have a huge amount of the market not interested in BTL investment

There are some positives things to take away. If you are a tax dodging vulture fund who snapped up property for cents on the euro from dodgy receivers. The Government has no real desire to make you pay any reasonable level of taxes or prevent receivers from continuing to sell property by questionable means.

Why would you buy property and take on the headaches with it when you can buy shares in an Irish REIT and get a 3,5% dividend per year plus capital appreciation? You can get 3.5% from an Irish REIT without lifting a finger.

CollyFlower

ligerdub wrote: »

Rent a room seems like the best idea. It's certainly very tax efficient, and the money you receive will partially may off the mortgage.

This comment will disgust some, but rent a room occupants have less rights than if you rent out the house in full.

It seems like a no brainer.

I understand what you're saying and agree with you Ligherdub.... Too many things can go wrong with being a LL and renting.

Lumen

Pkiernan wrote: »

Far better to put the money is a reasonably conservative mutual fund. You'll get 7% per year no problem, and will only pay 33% Capital Gains on that...My investments year to date (after fees but before CGT) in the London and Australian Stock Exchanges have returned 37% ytd, though about half of that was made from Brexit. Next 4 years, the markets are only going up thanks to Trump.

This is really dangerous advice, particularly the two parts I've bolded, but this isn't the forum for that debate.

Coming back to property, it's worth considering that the tax and regulatory environment changes at a much higher frequency that the period over which you finance a purchase. This makes it a bad idea to be taking on 30 ish years of debt on the basis of the tax situation today.

Make choices that enable your long term aspirations, and reduce the likelihood of not achieving them (because we feel losses more that gains).

In general, owning one property is taking a fairly neutral position is the market, and matches your long-term housing need, regardless of whether you live in it right now. That said, increasing tenant security could make it difficult to move into a property you rent out (although I seriously doubt this will situation will hold for any significant length of time, even if it comes to pass).

The BTL + rent yourself option has advantage of flexibility in your own living arrangements (e.g. you can live close to where you work, even if your work moves), and meets the "own one property" rule, but the maths probably don't work right now (particularly BTL interest rates) and despite the theoretical flexibility you may feel the least sense of control over your own destiny. There are a whole generation of accidental landlords wanting to exit this situation even with absurdly cheap tracker finance (~1%), so why anyone would choose it at 5% is beyond me.

The owner occupier + rent a room has the advantage of tax efficiency and control right now, but you're probably going to have to live in a worse location that you could otherwise afford as you'll need to buy additional rooms you don't strictly need but the bank won't lend you more than the LTI/LTV limits, regardless of income from lodgers.

The third option is just use the money to buy a place for yourself, e.g. 2 bed apartment, and have a lower mortgage. If you want to take on a licensee, maybe use the excess income to invest in a tax-efficient manner for the long term, e.g. low-fee self-managed pension fund (or just pay off the mortgage, giving you a risk-free 3% or whatever).

Pkiernan

It's not dangerous advice.
Getting 7% a year is not difficult at all.
I own 10 different mutual funds. Worst is averaging 5% since 1994. Best is averaging 12% since 1994.
A 7% return doubles your investment every 10 years. How many houses have doubled in value since 2007?
Risk is spread across about 2500 different stocks.
There is massive risk in tying up 120k and leveraging 90 more in one asset that is subject to the whims of populist politicians.

athtrasna

Pkiernan wrote: »

It's not dangerous advice.
Getting 7% a year is not difficult at all.
I own 10 different mutual funds. Worst is averaging 5% since 1994. Best is averaging 12% since 1994.
A 7% return doubles your investment every 10 years. How many houses have doubled in value since 2007?
Risk is spread across about 2500 different stocks.
There is massive risk in tying up 120k and leveraging 90 more in one asset that is subject to the whims of populist politicians.

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