The Thistlecrack/Gold Cup thread.

Gringo180

Am I the only one thinking Thistlecracks stamina is questionable. He didnt find much when asked the last day. Blame Scudamore all yous like but it wasnt the jockey that got him beat.

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking Thistlecracks stamina is questionable. He didnt find much when asked the last day. Blame Scudamore all yous like but it wasnt the jockey that got him beat.

How does getting bet a head by a national winner in a bog equate to not finding much? dont understand that thought process, When Kauto went up in trip and was all out to beat Lami he was a suspect non stayer,


Dont see him on better ground losing via not staying.

mulbot

Gringo180 wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking Thistlecracks stamina is questionable. He didnt find much when asked the last day. Blame Scudamore all yous like but it wasnt the jockey that got him beat.

No,I question his stamina a bit too. In both of his last races there was a slight hint of a lack of stamina(at least to question him finishing out a properly run Gold Cup)

Gringo180

Gamebred wrote: »

How does getting bet a head by a national winner in a bog equate to not finding much? dont understand that thought process, When Kauto went up in trip and was all out to beat Lami he was a suspect non stayer,


Dont see him on better ground losing via not staying.

He found absolutley nothing off the bridle. Was cantering coming to the last, expected him to pull away from Many Clouds and win snuggly. I dont see how the extra quarter of a mile will play into his hands.

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote: »

He found absolutley nothing off the bridle. Was cantering coming to the last, expected him to pull away from Many Clouds and win snuggly. I dont see how the extra quarter of a mile will play into his hands.

Come on now your exaggerating, if he found nothing he'd of been hammered a few lengths the winner literally killed himself with effort to try get the better of him it was that hard a race, a dour stayer.

Gringo180

mulbot wrote: »

No,I question his stamina a bit too. In both of his last races there was a slight hint of a lack of stamina(at least to question him finishing out a properly run Gold Cup)

His jumping is also worrying especially considering how good of a jumper Native River is.

Nonoperational

I could be completely wrong, but if it comes up soft I don't see him winning.

Gringo180

Gamebred wrote: »

Come on now your exaggerating, if he found nothing he'd of been hammered a few lengths the winner literally killed himself with effort to try get the better of him it was that hard a race, a dour stayer.

Watch the race again. Scudamore squeezes him up and he comes up to Many Clouds still on the bridle when Aspell is hard at work just before jumping the last. Didnt find enough for my liking. Native River on the other hand finds plenty off the bridle, Le Mercurey was hacking alongside him with 2 to jump at Newbury on Saturday but Native River kept finding more and won snuggly going away at the line.

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote: »

Watch the race again. Scudamore squeezes him up and he comes up to Many Clouds still on the bridle when Aspell is hard at work just before jumping the last. Didnt find enough for my liking. Native River on the other hand finds plenty off the bridle, Le Mercurey was hacking alongside him with 2 to jump at Newbury on Saturday but Native River kept finding more and won snuggly going away at the line.

As Native river should against that level of opposition, take Many Clouds out that race he be 1/2 best price no stamina doubts, I've no real problem with him getting outstayed by a head in his first real race off the bridle over fences, you need believers like me anyways to make the market so be thankful ha

BumperD

Think we will get a sense before the race from Tizzard. He is generally open and candid.

Gringo180

Gamebred wrote: »

As Native river should against that level of opposition, take Many Clouds out that race he be 1/2 best price no stamina doubts, I've no real problem with him getting outstayed by a head in his first real race off the bridle over fences, you need believers like me anyways to make the market so be thankful ha

Many Clouds beat Le Mercurey more or less the same distance at Aintree.

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote: »

Many Clouds beat Le Mercurey more or less the same distance at Aintree.

Would say Le Mercurey is possibly more suited to Aintree, and was getting weight from Many Clouds.

Shemale

Gringo180 wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking Thistlecracks stamina is questionable. He didnt find much when asked the last day. Blame Scudamore all yous like but it wasnt the jockey that got him beat.

Not for me, I have no idea what the plan was but they did their best to stop him running his normal race, he was prevented for getting near the front and tried stop him making bold jumps, I am still baffled by the tactics.

I think he just used up too much energy by not being allowed to run or jump the way he usually does.

Gringo180

Gamebred wrote: »

Would say Le Mercurey is possibly more suited to Aintree, and was getting weight from Many Clouds.

He was getting weight from Native River also. NR winning more snuggly than Many Clouds did. No questions over NR. He jumps he stays all day long and is a game animal. Plenty of questions hangs over the head of Thistlecrack imo.

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote: »

He was getting weight from Native River also. NR winning more snuggly than Many Clouds did. No questions over NR. He jumps he stays all day long and is a game animal. Plenty of questions hangs over the head of Thistlecrack imo.

Fire away on him so, we find out whose right in 4 weeks.

Gringo180

Shemale wrote: »

Not for me, I have no idea what the plan was but they did their best to stop him running his normal race, he was prevented for getting near the front and tried stop him making bold jumps, I am still baffled by the tactics.

I think he just used up too much energy by not being allowed to run or jump the way he usually does.

Good point. I think Scudamore was told to give the horse an education that day and have him in between horses. Very clever tactics even tho he got beat he would of learned more from that race than he did in his 3 previous chases. Still not convinced that he finds much off the bridle tho.

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote:

not convinced that he finds much off the bridle tho.

Non stayer now hes a bridle horse? which is it?


Did you miss him off the birdle in Ascot the day Ruby won on him?

hawaii501

Thistlecrack will win on the bridle as I agree with Gringo that he doesn't find off the bridle as his engine usually carries him.through races so he doesn't need too.

With better ground and tactics I expect Thistlecrack to show everyone the beast he is. I don't mind the defeat to Many Clouds as I think he has improved the extra 6/7 lbs needed after the wind-op to have been a GC challenger.

NR has answered all questions with the tools of a GC winner but I think his form is a bit overrated as BDM and le Mercurey are decent sorts but he would need to improve to be a challenger IMO.

danganabu

Cards on the table I am a huge Thisltecrack fan and have been since early last season so my thoughts may be biased/blinkered, but I really think those that are claiming his last run is a reason to oppose him are very very seriously under-rating the run of Many Clouds, it was a career best run for the ultimately tragic winner and a line through Smad Place has Thistlecrack 20lbs plus ahead of Native River, obviously I don't think he is that far ahead and Native River has improved since, but he certainly has enough in hand for it not to concern me, only slight worry is an over enthusiastic jump somewhere, and as a backer I will certainly be looking through my hands at the third last. If he is still running after the 3rd last he wins comfortably imo.

hawkeyethenoo

many clouds is a 10 year old who had never won a grade 1, lets be honest if thistlecrack is the machine every one thought he was he should have been dispatching him. thistlecrack isn't going to win the gold cup on the bridle, the minute he comes off the bridle i think he's in trouble, not a complete bridle horse but still wouldn't find a lot off it. scudamore isn't a cool enough jockey for the big occasion anyway, i think thistlecrack will waste too much petrol on the way round with his exuberant jumping.

Shemale

Gamebred wrote: »

Non stayer now hes a bridle horse? which is it?

These arent mutually exclusive

Gamebred

You're talking absolute rubbish bridle horse my arse, much you laying this thing for has zero chance so?

hawkeyethenoo

Gamebred wrote: »

You're talking absolute rubbish bridle horse my arse, much you laying this thing for has zero chance so?

can you not read? i said he's not a complete bridle horse but doesn't find a whole lot off it, and i never said he had zero chance. :rolleyes: i fancy native river to outstay him.

Gamebred

hawkeyethenoo wrote: »

can you not read? i said he's not a complete bridle horse but doesn't find a whole lot off it, and i never said he had zero chance. :rolleyes: i fancy native river to outstay him.

Wasnt talking to you, can you not read?

Shemale

Gamebred wrote: »

Wasnt talking to you, can you not read?

Hard to know you were talking to, to be fair to Hawkeye.

Gamebred

Gamebred wrote: »

Wasnt talking to you, can you not read?

Well, people who can read will be able to establish who you were talking to quite easily, by finding the poster who gave Thistlecrack 'zero chance'.

Hang on... who WERE you talking to?

Gamebred

posted directly under the poster I was replying to 4 minutes after his post and your finding it hard to decipher? mind boggling.

Gamebred

Gamebred wrote: »

posted directly under the poster I was replying to 4 minutes after his post and your finding it hard to decipher? mind boggling.

Shemale?

The poster who said "If Thistlecrack is allowed to run his race he will win"

Can't you read?

Gamebred

Deleted User wrote: »

Shemale?

The poster who said "If Thistlecrack is allowed to run his race he will win"

Can't you read?

Go back to bed.

Gamebred

Gamebred wrote: »

Go back to bed.

Yeah, I'll do that when you stop posting stupid macho "yeah so how much are you going to lay this no hoper" type messages to people who are simply discussing potential positives and negatives of a horse.

Repeat after me: there are more viewpoints available than just "dead cert" and "zero hope".

Even if you want to think that way don't project that silly way of viewing the world on people who are just talking about a horse's chances in a particular race.

Gamebred

Earendil

Gamebred man, I've said it before. You're a good poster on here, really like reading your NH views. But stop being such an insufferable thick will ya.

Motivator

Gamebred wrote: »

You're talking absolute rubbish bridle horse my arse, much you laying this thing for has zero chance so?

What are you basing your assumption that he isn't a bridle horse and an out and out stayer on? Nobody knows how he'll go over the Gold Cup trip - least of all you. How people can say Thistlecrack is a certainty is beyond me. Yes, he's by far the best horse in the race but he's unproven and didn't convince me the last day. None of us know what will happen. Personally, I don't think he'll stay and I think there are too many doubts to back him.

convert

Unfortunately we have to post another waning in this thread. Can people keep threads on topic and stop the personal insults and petty bickering. It has to stop. Now. Or else some people won't be able to post here for Cheltenham.

mdwexford

Not sure where people are clinging on to the non stayer stuff from.

He's won a world hurdle, a King George and a cleeve hurdle on heavy ground. The trip isn't an issue.

Gringo180

mdwexford wrote: »

Not sure where people are clinging on to the non stayer stuff from.

He's won a world hurdle, a King George and a cleeve hurdle on heavy ground. The trip isn't an issue.

Jumping a fence and a hurdle is like chalk and cheese. Josses Hill stayed the King George trip and hes a 2 and a half miler max. 3m3f Gold Cup around Cheltenham is a different ball game to a Cleeve or World Hurdle imo. 22 fences to take on compared to 12 hurdles in the WH.

mdwexford

Gringo180 wrote: »

Jumping a fence and a hurdle is like chalk and cheese. Josses Hill stayed the King George trip and hes a 2 and a half miler max. 3m3f Gold Cup around Cheltenham is a different ball game to a Cleeve or World Hurdle imo. 22 fences to take on compared to 12 hurdles in the WH.

The trip is the trip regardless of obstacles. If anything you go faster over hurdles so it should be easier to stay the same trip over fences.

He may not win for various reasons but I can't see not seeing out the distance strongly being one of them.

Panrich

mdwexford wrote: »

The trip is the trip regardless of obstacles. If anything you go faster over hurdles so it should be easier to stay the same trip over fences.

He may not win for various reasons but I can't see not seeing out the distance strongly being one of them.

Doran's Pride won a stayers hurdle but didn't quite see out the gold cup trip.

NaiveMelodies

mdwexford wrote: »

The trip is the trip regardless of obstacles. If anything you go faster over hurdles so it should be easier to stay the same trip over fences.

He may not win for various reasons but I can't see not seeing out the distance strongly being one of them.

Would there not be a big difference in the physical exertion when jumping fences than hurdles though? Not sure its as simple as saying the trip is the trip?

prettyboy81

Roll on Paddy's Day & this thread. I wonder will this thread see out the 3m2f & make it to 17th March

Stamina of the posters will be tested never mind whether Thistlecrack will stay the trip.

mdwexford

NaiveMelodies wrote: »

Would there not be a big difference in the physical exertion when jumping fences than hurdles though? Not sure its as simple as saying the trip is the trip?

That is a point. You are jumping bigger obstacles but you are going slower while doing it.

Imo though if a horse stays a distance over hurdles they will stay it over fences.

danganabu

Panrich wrote: »

Doran's Pride won a stayers hurdle but didn't quite see out the gold cup trip.

What?? He was two lengths away from winning the Gold Cup and finished the strongest of the 3 in contention, staying was not the issue.

Gamebred

I wish there was a 15/8 poke that I thought didnt stay and was a bridle horse to oppose at the festival, clear up lay it for the sweep I would.

Gringo180

Gamebred wrote: »

I wish there was a 15/8 poke that I thought didnt stay and was a bridle horse to oppose at the festival, clear up lay it for the sweep I would.

Ill eat my hat if Native River doesnt finish ahead of him.

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote: »

Ill eat my hat if Native River doesnt finish ahead of him.

Do you want a small match bet? money goes to charity of winners choice

prettyboy81

Gamebred wrote: »

Do you want a small match bet? money goes to charity of winners choice

Sounds like a good idea with small monies!

Shemale

Gamebred wrote: »

I wish there was a 15/8 poke that I thought didnt stay and was a bridle horse to oppose at the festival, clear up lay it for the sweep I would.

Well there is a 15/8 bombproof horse, who isn't a bridle horse and definitely stays the trip you could be getting stuck into.

Shemale

prettyboy81 wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea with small monies!

But if Gringo loses he will have to pay up and buy a new hat

Gringo180

Gamebred wrote: »

Do you want a small match bet? money goes to charity of winners choice

Ill go 20 quid

Gamebred

Gringo180 wrote: »

Ill go 20 quid

Cool your on.