Hell of the West pricing

EC1000

So it opens next week and is 90 euro this year (but limited to 400 entrants). A great race but hard to justify at that price. If it's 90 this year it will be 100 very soon. Thats half ironman pricing really. Disappointed to see this.

Edit: was 70 last year....

RacoonQueen

I wouldn't be doing it at that price, wasn't planning on doing it in 2017 - but 90 + petrol + accommodation for an Olympic wouldn't wash for me.
I'm sure they'll have no problem selling out still at 400 entries from munster/connacht entries as it's a great race.
Can do the double in Athy for that price though at least the 90 for HOTW goes to Limerick TC

68 lost souls

It was in my plan as possibly my A race next year then the pricing was announced and can no longer justify it. €90 for an Olympic is almost double what I would expect to pay especially when I have to travel down

TurboTerror

Crazy price, if it is being priced that high to subsidise a goodie bag then I'd gladly do without.
My concern would be that if the entry for this race is €90 this year then others will surely follow suit. Then to complete the minimum number of national series races would become very pricey!

noc231073

Well I just check in here to ask about another standard distance pricing and saw this .....

Went on this morning to register for jailbreak in cork .. because now I have to travel to get national series races .. with the reduction in races close to me
Wtf €90. Is this what we have to pay now for a standard race .....😭😭😭

That's just nuts ..

peter kern

playing devils advocate here
every year there is the drafting in kilkee thread . now it seems we have less people ie less drafting and now people complain about the entrance fee...
I would say the race is less profitable 2017 than it was 2016 ?

noc231073

peter kern wrote: »

playing devils advocate here
every year there is the drafting in kilkee thread . now it seems we have less people ie less drafting and now people complain about the entrance fee...
I would say the race is less profitable 2017 than it was 2016 ?

What's drafting got to do with it ??

We're talking about entry fees €90 for standard is taking the p**s ..

The lost sheep last year was €100 ...

Keeks

Looking at some of the Facebook comments the jailbreak price might be a mistake on the TI site...suppose to be €65??

At least the person moderating the Jailbreak Facebook page seems to think it is that price

griffin100

I know people love this race but based on my limited experience (2016) it does have faults - an overly crowded transition, no toilet facilities other than the public ones which in 2016 consisted of one functioning male cubicle for hundreds of racers, and a very congested bike course (at least at the middle to back end).

It is well organised but would I pay €90 for an OD? Not for this one when you factor in travel and accommodation costs. The race would need more than a great goody bag at that entry price for me.

peter kern

noc231073 wrote: »

What's drafting got to do with it ??

We're talking about entry fees €90 for standard is taking the p**s ..

The lost sheep last year was €100 ...

I would be inclined to think that a race that has been run well for 30 years is not taking the p..s and wonder more what the reasons for the price increase are ,before I comment on it. and the first thing that stands out is a much smaller entrance filed.

tunney

Keeks wrote: »

Looking at some of the Facebook comments the jailbreak price might be a mistake on the TI site...suppose to be €65??

At least the person moderating the Jailbreak Facebook page seems to think it is that price

No. The official mail from LTC to the other club sectaries said 90.

Personally I'd prefer to pay 90 for 400 person race then 60 for an 800.

Although really given the course 200 is more like it.

And for all those whining about NS races.... Seriously the NS is pointless, wake up.

Keeks

tunney wrote: »

Keeks wrote: »

Looking at some of the Facebook comments the jailbreak price might be a mistake on the TI site...suppose to be €65??

At least the person moderating the Jailbreak Facebook page seems to think it is that price

No. The official mail from LTC to the other club sectaries said 90.

It's the Jailbreak race in Cork I was talking about that Noc231073 was also complaining about the price of that....not Hell of the West....I did mention Jailbreak

tunney

Keeks wrote: »

It's the Jailbreak race in Cork I was talking about that Noc231073 was also complaining about the price of that....not Hell of the West....I did mention Jailbreak

Apologies, given the title of thread I got confused

Keeks

tunney wrote: »

Apologies, given the title of thread I got confused

No worries....


Speaking in general terms It always surprises me in that organisations/shops/companies etc increase prices with out an explanation in the hope that people accept it and don't question.

It must be an Irish thing where enough people don't make enough of a fuss and they they can ignore the few that do, and then it ends up being the norm. We will all bitch and moan about it but few will make "official" protests to the prices increases and then it will be justified as being accepted.

Aside from that.....how much does it cost to run a race?

boysinblack

As far as I was aware HOTW was a non profit race?

Not sure if this has changed but you have to presume Limerick Tri have a good reason for increasing the price substainal as they been running the race for years at a much lower price.

RacoonQueen

boysinblack wrote: »

As far as I was aware HOTW was a non profit race?

Not sure if this has changed but you have to presume Limerick Tri have a good reason for increasing the price substainal as they been running the race for years at a much lower price.

They are saying on Facebook that they aim to make a 5-10% margain that is reinvested back into the sport (which is fair enough). Most clubs are happy to break even on their races - but if part of the high price of HOTW is due to the goody bag I'm sure the vast majority of participants would rather have the bog standard energy drink/water/banana/energy bar that are supplied free or at little cost than the jackets/bags etc (I've done HOTW twice one year got a jacket which I gave away and the other year a bag which I never use) they are great goody bags but I'd rather a cheaper race than another bag to throw into my wardrobe.

I wouldn't pay 90 euro for an olympic, of any kind, which is fairly hypocritical as I'm planning to be doing an Ironman the following week for more than 6 times that price, which I had no grumbles about paying. Funny how differently we see things.

Have goody bags always been a thing? I started racing (running) in 2007 and the race series used to give epic goody bags with mustard and toothpaste and whatnot - where did this concept of a goody bag come from? I think 2007 was the first year of technical tees in the race series and marathon so I'm thinking the goody bag thing is relatively new.

Be interested to know how much more it costs to put on a race in Ireland than it does in other European countries. I know that when IM Galway was being run they said it costs more to host in Ireland that it did throughout the UK. Entry fees are just going to keep going up - one of the reasons for me not racing in 2015 was simply that I couldn't afford to - can sometimes be hard to justify even €60 olympic when you're a mid-packer.

mossym

as usual PK and Tunney see things with a great deal of clarity(or at least what i think is a great deal of clarity). teh past 4/5 years on here every monday after Kilkee the threads have been full of complaints about drafting. Valid complaints. and discussion about how you stop it. more waves, better marshalling, but one of the most obvious ones was a smaller field. dropping 900+ people onto that course was always going to mean drafting. drop it to 400, and now you have a much more manageable problem, and a much better race IMHO

and anyone that has done the race knows LTC put on a good show, Kilkee is tri focused from midday friday to sunday morning. it's one of the top 3 races in the country, often the best. they still need to make enough money to cover the race. and they're built up a good enough reputation that there will be enough people willing to pay to do this one rather than 50 or 60 for another race.

don't like it? simple, don't pay it. go do a cheaper race. most of the races aren't at the same level as kilkee, so shouldn't cost as much. same argument as saying that a volkswagon golf and an audio a3 are the same car so why should the a3 cost more. lot will argue they shouldn't, so go buy the golf. some will want the audi, and that's their choice, and if they are willing to pay then that's their choice as well

if it's not worth the money people won't pay it the following year . i'm definitely with Peter and Tunney here, i'd have been more angry if they had upped the entry and kept the field the same size. Paying a bit more to do the race in a less crowded field is a great choice i think

griffin100 wrote: »

I know people love this race but based on my limited experience (2016) it does have faults - an overly crowded transition, no toilet facilities other than the public ones which in 2016 consisted of one functioning male cubicle for hundreds of racers, and a very congested bike course (at least at the middle to back end).

It is well organised but would I pay €90 for an OD? Not for this one when you factor in travel and accommodation costs. The race would need more than a great goody bag at that entry price for me.

can totally see your point, but all those issues are lessened, if not removed, with a smaller field.

and i don't think Kilkee is popular for the goody bag. it'd sell out even if they had no goody bag. Kilkee is about the course, and the chance to test yourself against it. similar to lost sheep in that regards

mossym

looks like the public have spoken anyway, after selling out in minutes the last couple of years, 2 hours in now and with half the entries registration is still open...

RacoonQueen

mossym wrote: »

looks like the public have spoken anyway, after selling out in minutes the last couple of years, 2 hours in now and with half the entries registration is still open...

I think they will still sell out...but with 400 entries clubs who travel en mass (pulse, 3d etc) won't risk it was a club weekend away as there is a chance of too many disappointed members. Pulse would usually bring about 60 or 70 down to Kilkee which is a huge chunk of this years entries.

Pidae.m

Also cork tri have this as their away race last year and again this year.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I think they will still sell out...but with 400 entries clubs who travel en mass (pulse, 3d etc) won't risk it was a club weekend away as there is a chance of too many disappointed members. Pulse would usually bring about 60 or 70 down to Kilkee which is a huge chunk of this years entries.

Huff n Puff

Not so long ago, Kilkee used to have a limited entry field and the entry cost was competitive. Fast forward a few years and we once again have a limited entry field with an uncompetitive price. Why the big difference in price?

Have the costs increased substantially for triathlons around the country? I don't think so. Any price increase has usually been brought on by the club's themselves and the constant push for more razzmatazz and added extras. This 'sport' is becoming a novelty sport and is losing focus on what should be important.

I have no problem with a limited entry field. I would agree that this results in a far better race. The issue I and others have is why Kilkee's entry price is so much more expensive than all other triathlons in the country. I would have always been of the opinion that triathlons were way overpriced years ago anyway.

I can only go from my own experience of organising races. I have been involved in organising many run races, cycling races and triathlons (both open water and pool based). Without a doubt, triathlons are the toughest to organise and this is reflected in higher prices - it is also the sport where the most profit is made for the club. I am keenly aware of the costs involved in organising races and even publicised our costs on this website a number of years ago to show people what was involved. So when I criticise a race for charging €90 to enter, it is with a decent amount of knowledge about what is involved. I know I could organise an open water triathlon, and break even for €28, with optional purchase of a t-shirt and a food mountain afterwards all donated by club members.

But do you know what the killer thing for me is....... people now want the razzmatazz, they want the jam-packed goodie bag, they want the meals, they want the finisher medal, they want the big show and they are willing to pay for it. If you don't charge big bucks they think there must be something wrong with the race. They see it all as standard practice now as that was the sport they were introduced to. Those that have been fighting for low cost races for years are fighting a losing battle. We have this argument in our own club all the time - you have those arguing for high prices and those for low. It makes it harder to justify low prices when other races seem to get away with the high prices.

Kilkee will sell out this year but it has lost a little bit of goodwill from me and quite a few others. There was only one topic of conversation for our club over the last week and that was Kilkee. It is fair to say that not one good comment was made. This has always been our away race (usually bring around 30 to the race), but this year it will not be. I was looking forward to going back there this year but sometimes you have to make a stand even though it will be futile.

The further explanation from LTC on their Facebook page about the need to increase prices shed no new light on the issue. Going on about volunteers is not helpful as this is the same for every single club in the country. The volunteers in Limerick tri are no more special than the hundreds of volunteers in every other club in the country. I imagine the reason for the reduced numbers is a bad crash that happened last year, but could be totally wrong on this. Again there are no problems for me with reducing the numbers. Kilkee has probably allowed its cost base to rise with the expectation of having 1000+ at the race. Instead of cutting back on costs with reduced numbers it looks to me like the price is just being increased to cover it.

This rant is coming from someone who was the biggest cheerleader for the Hell of the West down through the years.

By the way, if people hadn't spoken out last year, we might have been ushering in a new era of charging spectators to come watch our novelty sport. God I hate this 'sport' at times.

tunney

Not done kilkee in years.
Three things make the race.
The rough swim.
The wind on the bike.
The hill on the run.

Anything else is not required.

RacoonQueen

tunney wrote: »

Not done kilkee in years.
Three things make the race.
The rough swim.
The wind on the bike.
The hill on the run.

Anything else is not required.

Agreed. Though the vocal minority will complain to high heavens if this is all they get. IMO the majority of athletes just want a good race that is good value. It's the vocal minority though who will complain on facebook and on here if all they get in their goodybag is a banana and a crunchie.

BorneTobyWilde

mossym

appears to have sold out. entries no longer available

tunney

griffin100

don't like it? simple, don't pay it. go do a cheaper race. most of the races aren't at the same level as kilkee, so shouldn't cost as much. same argument as saying that a volkswagon golf and an audio a3 are the same car so why should the a3 cost more. lot will argue they shouldn't, so go buy the golf. some will want the audi, and that's their choice, and if they are willing to pay then that's their choice as well

Serious question, but what do you think puts Kilkee at a higher level than other races? What has it got that costs more? I've 9 seasons of tri done and my one experience of HOTW would place it no higher than most well organised races I've done over the years (Pikeman, TriLaois, Carrick, Nenagh). As I pointed out in my post above in some areas it was very poor when I did it (the lack of toilets being one area). Granted the swim is a real draw but that costs nothing.

I agree with the view that if you don't want to pay don't do it and the fact that entry slots seem to be down does explain to some degree the increase in costs.

mossym

griffin100 wrote: »

Serious question, but what do you think puts Kilkee at a higher level than other races?

the swim, sea swim, chance to get a royal bashing or as calm as a lake
bike course, if you got the drafting under control, is a proper test. steady climbs, strong headwinds, poor swimmers and good cyclists can make up a lot of lost ground here.
run course up the hill, along the cliff, and back down into town is superb. once you get to the top of the last hill down into town you know you've earned the freewheel back down, my best performance there i don't even remember the run back down the mental darkness had hit so bad.
it's tough, even the year it was my A race i didn't come within 15 minutes of my best time over an oly distance. the bike is long sure, but it's a proper challenge. they are few and far between. the old boru tri that ennis used run in killaloe with the first 6km of the run up a forestry hill was another
the crowd, usually its one of the best turned out events of the year, you know someone in tri, you'll see them at kilkee, even if they are not racing.
the town, the crack starts the moment you arrive into the town on the friday night, and saturday night in kilkee is manic.


a lot of it is probably location based, kilkee is close enough i don't consider it travelling, i could go down the Saturday morning if i wanted. plus lots i know have holiday homes down there for the summer, so i know lots down there. i get that some of these won't be factors for all, but they make it a superb race in my eyes.

the other race that battles with kilkee as my favourite irish race is kenmare. no surprise given they share a lot of similarities. before june kilkee is my #1, closer it gets to September i'll start saying it's kenmare..:)

tunney

mossym wrote: »

the swim, sea swim, chance to get a royal bashing or as calm as a lake
bike course, if you got the drafting under control, is a proper test. steady climbs, strong headwinds, poor swimmers and good cyclists can make up a lot of lost ground here.
run course up the hill, along the cliff, and back down into town is superb. once you get to the top of the last hill down into town you know you've earned the freewheel back down, my best performance there i don't even remember the run back down the mental darkness had hit so bad.
it's tough, even the year it was my A race i didn't come within 15 minutes of my best time over an oly distance. the bike is long sure, but it's a proper challenge. they are few and far between. the old boru tri that ennis used run in killaloe with the first 6km of the run up a forestry hill was another
the crowd, usually its one of the best turned out events of the year, you know someone in tri, you'll see them at kilkee, even if they are not racing.
the town, the crack starts the moment you arrive into the town on the friday night, and saturday night in kilkee is manic.


a lot of it is probably location based, kilkee is close enough i don't consider it travelling, i could go down the Saturday morning if i wanted. plus lots i know have holiday homes down there for the summer, so i know lots down there. i get that some of these won't be factors for all, but they make it a superb race in my eyes.

the other race that battles with kilkee as my favourite irish race is kenmare. no surprise given they share a lot of similarities. before june kilkee is my #1, closer it gets to September i'll start saying it's kenmare..:)

Suppose better start looking for accommodation.

peter kern

of course well spoken from a purist, and as people have said kilkee is waves wind the hill and funny races at 3 am after rocking the boat.

Huff n Puff wrote: »

Not so long ago, Kilkee used to have a limited entry field and the entry cost was competitive. Fast forward a few years and we once again have a limited entry field with an uncompetitive price. Why the big difference in price?

Have the costs increased substantially for triathlons around the country? I don't think so. Any price increase has usually been brought on by the club's themselves and the constant push for more razzmatazz and added extras. This 'sport' is becoming a novelty sport and is losing focus on what should be important.

I have no problem with a limited entry field. I would agree that this results in a far better race. The issue I and others have is why Kilkee's entry price is so much more expensive than all other triathlons in the country. I would have always been of the opinion that triathlons were way overpriced years ago anyway.

I can only go from my own experience of organising races. I have been involved in organising many run races, cycling races and triathlons (both open water and pool based). Without a doubt, triathlons are the toughest to organise and this is reflected in higher prices - it is also the sport where the most profit is made for the club. I am keenly aware of the costs involved in organising races and even publicised our costs on this website a number of years ago to show people what was involved. So when I criticise a race for charging €90 to enter, it is with a decent amount of knowledge about what is involved. I know I could organise an open water triathlon, and break even for €28, with optional purchase of a t-shirt and a food mountain afterwards all donated by club members.

But do you know what the killer thing for me is....... people now want the razzmatazz, they want the jam-packed goodie bag, they want the meals, they want the finisher medal, they want the big show and they are willing to pay for it. If you don't charge big bucks they think there must be something wrong with the race. They see it all as standard practice now as that was the sport they were introduced to. Those that have been fighting for low cost races for years are fighting a losing battle. We have this argument in our own club all the time - you have those arguing for high prices and those for low. It makes it harder to justify low prices when other races seem to get away with the high prices.

Kilkee will sell out this year but it has lost a little bit of goodwill from me and quite a few others. There was only one topic of conversation for our club over the last week and that was Kilkee. It is fair to say that not one good comment was made. This has always been our away race (usually bring around 30 to the race), but this year it will not be. I was looking forward to going back there this year but sometimes you have to make a stand even though it will be futile.

The further explanation from LTC on their Facebook page about the need to increase prices shed no new light on the issue. Going on about volunteers is not helpful as this is the same for every single club in the country. The volunteers in Limerick tri are no more special than the hundreds of volunteers in every other club in the country. I imagine the reason for the reduced numbers is a bad crash that happened last year, but could be totally wrong on this. Again there are no problems for me with reducing the numbers. Kilkee has probably allowed its cost base to rise with the expectation of having 1000+ at the race. Instead of cutting back on costs with reduced numbers it looks to me like the price is just being increased to cover it.

This rant is coming from someone who was the biggest cheerleader for the Hell of the West down through the years.

By the way, if people hadn't spoken out last year, we might have been ushering in a new era of charging spectators to come watch our novelty sport. God I hate this 'sport' at times.

68 lost souls

mossym wrote: »

appears to have sold out. entries no longer available

I wonder if it actually did or are they trying to boost demand for the next wave of spaces they are releasing? They had already said this would be the first release but no word of how many that was