Liverpool vs Man City, 17:30, BT Sports 1

DJIMI TRARORE

Not the goalfest most were hoping/expecting for but good to see that Klopp is capable of changing tactics and tightening up midfield in last 10-15 mins. Super result,:):):)

BorneTobyWilde

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Aren't these the same City player that won ten straight games at the start of the season and we were being shown a genius coach at work.


What happened to those players are they all suddenly to old and aren't worth coaching now and nothing to do with the coach.

Fixture list was kind
As soon as some tough games came along we saw true City
Not special, but hardly a poor side.
Still in race

monkey9

I think people are being overly harsh on Guardiola. He's only been there a few months, everything's not going to come together just like that. (I know people will say Conte, but there's still half a season to go).

This is without doubt Guardiola's biggest job in terms of the challenge so he needs time to mould a team and squad into the way he wants them to play.

It's not like this season is a write off. There's cups still to win and maybe even the league, who knows. They're still in the top four, it's not like he's struggling down the nether regions of the table.

I'll be more interested in seeing where Guardiola's City are in two years rather than where they are right now (Remember, there was stupid talk of Conte being under pressure earlier on in the season)

Andersonisgod

MightyMandarin wrote: »

The problem is his 'Pepball' as you call it, is flawed completely.

He tried it at Bayern and they still couldn't make it work after 3 years, and don't bs me with the domestic trophies he won. BVB, the only meaningful opposition in Germany, were in periods of decline and transition during his tenure; he'd be ****ed if he stayed on this year.

Assuming he doesn't radically overhaul his philosophy he'll be out the door at the end of next season without a PL or CL won or even come close to winning.

Pep has been proven to be a poor manager who is stubborn in his ideas and leaves his players out to dry. He is in stark contrast to Klopp who may be stubborn in sub-making and mid-game decisions, is versatile, balanced and always takes the pressure off his players.

Imagine trying to present a logical, reasoned argument to debate this point? One positive of Guardiola is that he really does shine a light on how some (most?) people in these isles view football.

Andersonisgod

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Imagine trying to present a logical, reasoned argument to debate this point? One positive of Guardiola is that he really does shine a light on how some (most?) people in these isles view football.

Lol

And what way is this
Please do tell

Andersonisgod

Richard Hillman wrote: »

150 odd years of football and some guy from Spain thinks he has finally solved the puzzle. The arrogance and unwillingness to admit that times have changed is outstanding. His tactics are outdated.

Ok so please enlighten us. Whose tactics are in? What is the secret? What is the secret to success in modern football?

Osmosis Jones

Andersonisgod wrote: »

One positive of Guardiola is that he really does shine a light on how some (most?) people in these isles view football.

Yeah what's with these savages who believe that winning games is what matters most?

Ulysses Gaze

The Talking Bread wrote: »

It is not a poor example. I firmly believe Mourinho would be getting a lot more out of that City squad than Pep at the moment. Because he wouldn't obsess about implementing tactics even you agree the squad has no long term ability to adapt to.
I get what he wants to do but football shouldn't work like that. Out of the current squad who does he get rid of and who does he keep and who does he buy and how long does he have to carry out his self egotistical driven project.

I'd say Conte and Klopp would also be getting more from City as well.

Andersonisgod

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Douglas Costa certainly did.

And Robben. And Coman. And Ribery. And Muller. All players they said couldn't work in that system.

Andersonisgod

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Lol

And what way is this
Please do tell

Why would I? You live here, so do I. I hear it, you do too.

BorneTobyWilde

City could win 9 of their next league games on paper
Where would that put them.
We need to be winning too
Chelsea are proof that a run of 8 plus wins puts you within reach of top

SlickRic

Pyjamarama wrote: »

City are an aging squad and very unbalanced. Pep has had one window and they're on an iffy run right now. He'll come good i'm sure.

Oh he will. Because he'll buy some more of the best players in the world, for lots of money, until he's the best squad in the world, and then 'Pepball' will be deemed brilliant again.

kfallon

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Douglas Costa certainly did.

You're not trying to compare Douglas Costa and Sterling are you???

MightyMandarin

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Are you actually serious... thats literally the worst thing posted on boards all year and i'm a Liverpool fan not a City one.

Explain where I'm wrong on this.

His tenure at Bayern was marred with disappointing performances in the CL which was covered up with a pisstake of a league situation not too dissimilar to that of PSG in France.

At Barca he won it all, but can he really be judged fairly while having arguably the best squad in club football in the past 20 years? His last season in the CL also showed where the flaws are in his philosophy against counter-attacking teams.


Now look at his City tenure. He continually fields under-performing players in the same formation and leaves his back 4 out to dry.

-Coming up against a Liverpool with a packed midfield with 3 CM's? He plays 2 CM.
-Play a long-ball game to counter Liverpool's pressing? Play Aguero, Sterling, Silva and De Bruyne, all of whom this style does not suit at all.
-Then, when it's clearly not working against a stuttering Liverpool, he waits till the 80-something minute to change it up and throw Navas and Iheanacho on.

Poor, poor decision making from Pep.

The Talking Bread

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Imagine trying to present a logical, reasoned argument to debate this point? One positive of Guardiola is that he really does shine a light on how some (most?) people in these isles view football.

This post perfectly sums up the issue with Pep at the moment. He is arrogant in his ideals, refuses to admit certain flaws in his projects and abandon them due to his ego and if someone disagrees, they don't understand football.
I admire persistance and of course watching football, like at Barca, is great but there comes a point when you have to acknowledge and utilise the resources you have, at the expense of your ego.

BorneTobyWilde

United now challenging for 3rd spot.
Gap from 6th to 7th is getting big.

Osmosis Jones

kfallon wrote: »

You're not trying to compare Douglas Costa and Sterling are you???

Yeah, Sterling cost twice as much as Costa! There is no comparison.

kfallon

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Why would I? You live here, so do I. I hear it, you do too.

Stick to the wrestling trout, that's more your game

SlickRic

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

I think Pep will get it right eventually with City, but this idea that his tactics are too advanced for the team he is managing is ridiculous.

And this is my issue.

Pep is in a win-win with this stupid argument. He's either too advanced for his players (if he fails), or is a genius at coaching them (if he wins).

daingeanrob

klopp has to be the best manager in world football, we are not the complete article but since he took over the progression is unreal; he has us believing. i think we are short but top 4 compared to what was spent by those around us would be a good year.

MightyMandarin

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Imagine trying to present a logical, reasoned argument to debate this point? One positive of Guardiola is that he really does shine a light on how some (most?) people in these isles view football.

Yeah just ignore the flaws in your argument, like Pep ignores his flaws and his teams suffers from its consequences time and time again.

The Talking Bread

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I'd say Conte and Klopp would also be getting more from City as well.

I mentioned Klopp already. I won't comment on Conte as I haven't seen much of Chelsea at all this season bar highlights and fabulous run of results but he is Italian and is a results manager so he certainly would utilise what he has at the expense of his ego.

Mr. FoggPatches

Andersonisgod wrote: »

Ok so please enlighten us. Whose tactics are in? What is the secret? What is the secret to success in modern football?

Same as it always was. Get the best from the players at your disposal.

SlickRic

M!Ck^ wrote: »

The excuse that the city squad is decline is a load of bull**** tbh

I read on here at the start of the season that the squad looked the strongest in the league

Also, I heard they were playing some of the best football ever seen in the Premier League at the start of the season.

His disciples can't have it every which way.

BMMachine

I think its really hard to judge Pep in the Premier League atm. It is a completely different kettle of fish compared to what he's used to in Spain, maybe Germany is somewhat similar when compared to France, Italy & Spain but this isn't his squad and I think hes still adjusting. The adjustment is of course taking longer and I don't think hes used to there being 6 top teams instead of 2/3. This will be the big test for him - can he adapt. Hes going to have the money to shape his squad, but so do United and so do Chelsea. Its going to be interesting regardless but anyone writing him off as a flat track bully or overrated right now might not be doing themselves any favours in a years time

monkey9

The Talking Bread wrote: »

This post perfectly sums up the issue with Pep at the moment. He is arrogant in his ideals, refuses to admit certain flaws in his projects and abandon them due to his ego and if someone disagrees, they don't understand football.
I admire persistance and of course watching football, like at Barca, is great but there comes a point when you have to acknowledge and utilise the resources you have, at the expense of your ego.

This is what i loved about Klopp when he took over at Liverpool. He wasn't all about spending loads and making changes and making the players he inherited do stuff they weren't capable of. He had enough faith in his coaching ability to look at what he had first of all and seeing how he could make them better.

He gave them a chance to prove themselves and over a period, he gets to see who's who and what's what and where he actually does need to bring in some new players as well promoting youth.

kfallon

monkey9 wrote: »

This is what i loved about Klopp when he took over at Liverpool. He wasn't all about spending loads and making changes and making the players he inherited do stuff they weren't capable of. He had enough faith in his coaching ability to look at what he had first of all and seeing how he could make them better.

He gave them a chance to prove themselves and over a period, he gets to see who's who and what's what and where he actually does need to bring in some new players as well promoting youth.

That's a cracking post tbf

Sand

The Talking Bread wrote: »

This post perfectly sums up the issue with Pep at the moment. He is arrogant in his ideals, refuses to admit certain flaws in his projects and abandon them due to his ego and if someone disagrees, they don't understand football.
I admire persistance and of course watching football, like at Barca, is great but there comes a point when you have to acknowledge and utilise the resources you have, at the expense of your ego.

I think Guardiola isn't actually all that arrogant. His fans are incredibly arrogant and insufferable trying to bask in the glow of someone else's achievements, but Guardiola is simply being confident in the methods that have brought him success in the past. He is hardly going to publicly express a lack of confidence in himself.

I think Guardiola is facing the biggest challenge of his managerial career in a league which is richer and tougher and better managed than any he has managed in before. His fans painted it as Guardiola visiting a benighted isle to raise the peasants out of the mud and filth. If anything its Guardiola who is getting a few harsh lessons in a football culture where even tiny minnows can outspend almost all sides in La Liga and the Bundesliga, yet retain the underdog mentality that doesn't bow down or kowtow to reputation. If Guardiola is still making the same mistakes 12 months from now, that's arrogance.

Andersonisgod

kfallon wrote: »

Stick to the wrestling trout, that's more your game

My bow has more strings than you could ever know.

MightyMandarin

monkey9 wrote: »

This is what i loved about Klopp when he took over at Liverpool. He wasn't all about spending loads and making changes and making the players he inherited do stuff they weren't capable of. He had enough faith in his coaching ability to look at what he had first of all and seeing how he could make them better.

He gave them a chance to prove themselves and over a period, he gets to see who's who and what's what and where he actually does need to bring in some new players as well promoting youth.

Not just that, he saw a clear weakness at LB for example, and even though he may have explored that area for another player, if nothing suited he didn't just hit and hope at a player he wasn't sure about. Instead, he switched Milner's position, brought in Wijnaldum to replace him in midfield and now both look like one of the best in the league in their respective positions.

Arghus

Andersonisgod wrote: »

My bow has more strings than you could ever know.

But your arrows are badly blunted these days and often fail to hit the target.

BMMachine

Arghus wrote: »

But your arrows are badly blunted these days and often fail to hit the target.

ooohhh an accidental Partridge!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1aaXjymblk

monkey9

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Not just that, he saw a clear weakness at LB for example, and even though he may have explored that area for another player, if nothing suited he didn't just hit and hope at a player he wasn't sure about. Instead, he switched Milner's position, brought in Wijnaldum to replace him in midfield and now both look like one of the best in the league in their respective positions.

Well now, i wouldn't be saying Milner's the best left back in the league (i really want us to sign Cresswell from West Ham) but he didn't panic, he knew what Milner could do, dealt with what he has at his disposal and no doubt will pounce when that left back, whoever it is, becomes available.

And that there is proper management. He just seems so completely in control of what he wants to do.

The Wijnaldum signing was just a stroke of brilliance. I'm not suggesting taking the captaincy from Henderson because there's no need, but Wijnaldum just seems a natural captain to me.

MightyMandarin

monkey9 wrote: »

Well now, i wouldn't be saying Milner's the best left back in the league (i really want us to sign Cresswell from West Ham) but he didn't panic, he knew what Milner could do, dealt with what he has at his disposal and no doubt will pounce when that left back, whoever it is, becomes available.

I don't see us signing anyone unless Moreno goes. Valencia seems like a club in crisis at the moment given that another manager went today; I'd love to see us snap up Gaya and develop him as a long-term option at LB.

rob316

Even as a liverpool fan, Klopp has surprised me how good of a coach he really is.

You look at this squad and Coutinho is the only player who could be remotely classed as a star although the addition of Mane looks of similar caliber.

I was of the opinion the squad Rodgers had when he was sacked was under performing but I never thought Klopp could extract the sort of performances I have seen. Lallana is just outstanding, Milner at left back has been nothing short of genius, Henderson vastly improved, the defence as a whole is better. Our attack is so well rounded now, Sturridge has been relegated to 3rd choice striker, a player we couldn't buy a goal without under Rodgers after Suarez was sold.

Klopp is far more flexible in his approach than I thought, yes I can be critical of his gung-ho football sometimes and reluctance to make subs but he has proven to be a world class manager and probably the best coach in world football.

Francie Barrett

Andersonisgod wrote: »

My bow has more strings than you could ever know.

It must actually kill you that your La Masia hero got well and truly schooled in the art of football.

SlickRic

One of the more revealing things Thierry Henry has ever done in his work with Sky, was when he talked about Pep on an MNF one night.

He did a 10 minute masterclass on how Pep's Barcelona functioned, and what he asked of his players tactically.

Henry said that Pep told them that it was his job to get the team to the final 3rd of the pitch. And that is reliant on technical excellence, plus players brave enough to keep the structure that Pep insists upon. Once they get to the final 3rd it's 'freedom'.

So firstly, his system is utterly reliant on players having a certain amount of technical ability. It defines his philosophy. If players can't be trusted to be a certain distance from their teammates, or and/or trusted to be able to hit precise balls at pace, then the whole thing falls apart, because what Pep wants his players to do is high risk..because if it works, his team gets control.

Secondly, because Pepball is basically a variation of tiki-taka, against very good teams, once you've control, the team needs exceptional players to pick the lock.

Pep needs the best players for his ways to work. If he's going to be given those players, then he'll be fine. If he's to coach the young players he has, I've heard from Pep's disciples that he needs a couple of years to do this (because apparently his methods are so fúcking advanced). The problem is, when does he ever stay for more than 3 years or so?

It just seems Pep gets allowances from some that no other coach really would because of his fabled Barcelona team, and his storied philosophy. His ways are a religion to some.

Andersonisgod

SlickRic wrote: »

One of the more revealing things Thierry Henry has ever done in his work with Sky, was when he talked about Pep on an MNF one night.

He did a 10 minute masterclass on how Pep's Barcelona functioned, and what he asked of his players tactically.

Henry said that Pep told them that it was his job to get the team to the final 3rd of the pitch. And that is reliant on technical excellence, plus players brave enough to keep the structure that Pep insists upon. Once they get to the final 3rd it's 'freedom'.

So firstly, his system is utterly reliant on players having a certain amount of technical ability. It defines his philosophy. If players can't be trusted to be a certain distance from their teammates, or and/or trusted to be able to hit precise balls at pace, then the whole thing falls apart, because what Pep wants his players to do is high risk..because if it works, his team gets control.

Secondly, because Pepball is basically a variation of tiki-taka, against very good teams, once you've control, the team needs exceptional players to pick the lock.

Pep needs the best players for his ways to work. If he's going to be given those players, then he'll be fine. If he's to coach the young players he has, I've heard from Pep's disciples that he needs a couple of years to do this (because apparently his methods are so fúcking advanced). The problem is, when does he ever stay for more than 3 years or so?

It just seems Pep gets allowances from some that no other coach really would because of his fabled Barcelona team, and his storied philosophy. His ways are a religion to some.

You know what's really revealing? Two fairly large books written by an author who shadowed Guardiola for 3 years, required no permission to publish any work he desired and was there from start to finish of the most heralded coach of his generation trying to change an entire culture at one of Europe's biggest clubs. Not only that but the author even goes and gets feedback, quotes and insights on Guardiola from those closest to him. I really think that for anyone's opinion on Guardiola and what he's trying to do at City to be taken in any way seriously theu shoule first be required to read this material. As the post above shows, without that prior knowledge you get posts with glating inaccuracies in it.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Andersonisgod wrote: »

You know what's really revealing? Two fairly large books written by an author who shadowed Guardiola for 3 years, required no permission to publish any work he desired and was there from start to finish of the most heralded coach of his generation trying to change an entire culture at one of Europe's biggest clubs. Not only that but the author even goes and gets feedback, quotes and insights on Guardiola from those closest to him. I really think that for anyone's opinion on Guardiola and what he's trying to do at City to be taken in any way seriously theu shoule first be required to read this material. As the post above shows, without that prior knowledge you get posts with glating inaccuracies in it.

We can see fairly easily what he's doing at City, last night was another glimpse into his fabulousity (should so be a word).

But I'm sure another £4-500m spent will underline how fabulous he really is.

corwill

Andersonisgod wrote: »

You know what's really revealing? Two fairly large books written by an author who shadowed Guardiola for 3 years, required no permission to publish any work he desired and was there from start to finish of the most heralded coach of his generation trying to change an entire culture at one of Europe's biggest clubs. Not only that but the author even goes and gets feedback, quotes and insights on Guardiola from those closest to him. I really think that for anyone's opinion on Guardiola and what he's trying to do at City to be taken in any way seriously theu shoule first be required to read this material. As the post above shows, without that prior knowledge you get posts with glating inaccuracies in it.

Martí Perarnau's books?

kfallon

Andersonisgod wrote: »

You know what's really revealing? Two fairly large books written by an author who shadowed Guardiola for 3 years, required no permission to publish any work he desired and was there from start to finish of the most heralded coach of his generation trying to change an entire culture at one of Europe's biggest clubs. Not only that but the author even goes and gets feedback, quotes and insights on Guardiola from those closest to him. I really think that for anyone's opinion on Guardiola and what he's trying to do at City to be taken in any way seriously theu shoule first be required to read this material. As the post above shows, without that prior knowledge you get posts with glating inaccuracies in it.

So Guardiola fanboy writes book about Guardiola after hanging around him for 3 seasons, gets feedback and insights from Guardiola's closest friends and allies and the end result is a book detailing how great Guardiola is - wow, who could have seen that coming!

Andersonisgod

kfallon wrote: »

So Guardiola fanboy writes book about Guardiola after hanging around him for 3 seasons, gets feedback and insights from Guardiola's closest friends and allies and the end result is a book detailing how great Guardiola is - wow, who could have seen that coming!

The alternative is guy on Soccer forum who barely ever watched Guardiola's Bayern or Barcelona teams and wgo hasn't read the texts available on the coach expects his opinion on Guardiola and books which he has read to be taken as gospel. That could be described as wilful ignorance, which is never the answer.

Headshot

Church of Guardiola

Please rise now play boring football

Let the Guardiola be with you

The Talking Bread

Wilful ignorance







Hmmmmmmmm.

kfallon

Andersonisgod wrote: »

The alternative is guy on Soccer forum who barely ever watched Guardiola's Bayern or Barcelona teams and wgo hasn't read the texts available on the coach expects his opinion on Guardiola and books which he has read to be taken as gospel. That could be described as wilful ignorance, which is never the answer.

Who barely ever watched Bayern or Barca play?

SlickRic

Andersonisgod wrote: »

You know what's really revealing? Two fairly large books written by an author who shadowed Guardiola for 3 years, required no permission to publish any work he desired and was there from start to finish of the most heralded coach of his generation trying to change an entire culture at one of Europe's biggest clubs. Not only that but the author even goes and gets feedback, quotes and insights on Guardiola from those closest to him. I really think that for anyone's opinion on Guardiola and what he's trying to do at City to be taken in any way seriously theu shoule first be required to read this material. As the post above shows, without that prior knowledge you get posts with glating inaccuracies in it.

So to have an opinion that's in any way valid on Pep, I must first read all the biblical material on him? Seriously?

Is that the same for Mourinho? Klopp? Allardyce? Martin O'Neill? Or any other manager for that matter?

Utter nonsense.

I use my eyes to analyse football. Plus the bits I've read. Plus whatever anecdotes I hear from players like Henry.

You don't the like what I said, so you decide to arrogantly dismiss my points because I haven't read a book you think is vital. You don't automatically know more about the game because you've read certain books. You're actually entrenched in a dogmatic, religious obsession with one way of playing the game that you can't see criticised or questioed without trying to smugly patronise the person giving the opinion.

You kill any constructive debate because you assume you're in the position of superior knowledge, and we should just listen as you preach your gospel. If we disagree, it's because we haven't read certain things. Ridiculous.

Milkers

SlickRic wrote: »

So to have an opinion that's in any way valid on Pep, I must first read all the biblical material on him? Seriously?

Is that the same for Mourinho? Klopp? Allardyce? Martin O'Neill? Or any other manager for that matter?

Utter nonsense.

I use my eyes to analyse football. Plus the bits I've read. Plus whatever anecdotes I hear from players like Henry.

You don't the like what I said, so you decide to arrogantly dismiss my points because I haven't read a book you think is vital. You don't automatically know more about the game because you've read certain books. You're actually entrenched in a dogmatic, religious obsession with one way of playing the game that you can't see criticised or questioed without trying to smugly patronise the person giving the opinion.

You kill any constructive debate because you assume you're in the position of superior knowledge, and we should just listen as you preach your gospel. If we disagree, it's because we haven't read certain things. Ridiculous.

That's why AIG can't be taken seriously. I have no doubt he is quite knowledgeable but you can't have a proper discussion with a fanatic. It would be like discussing the afterlife with a well-read televangelist. We really need Richard Dawkins to write a book "The Pep Delusion".

PhlegmyMoses

Milkers wrote: »

That's why AIG can't be taken seriously. I have no doubt he is quite knowledgeable but you can't have a proper discussion with a fanatic. It would be like discussing the afterlife with a well-read televangelist. We really need Richard Dawkins to write a book "The Pep Delusion".

AIG is a self confessed wind-up merchant. Literally said himself that his main goal on here is to wind people up. That's why he can't be taken seriously.

OwaynOTT

Andersonisgod wrote: »

I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me. I am the pep and the pep is with me.

On an unrelated note. I'm feeling better and I'm don't know what I'm going to do for the Sunderland game.

The Talking Bread

Screw Pep, the real football messiah is Owen Coyle!

I can't wait for the books about him!

And if you haven't read the books, watched every game Blackburn, Bolton, Houston Dynamo or Wigan game for the last half decade or more you wouldn't understand.


And before you start, I know they are 22nd in the Championship and have only won 5 games this season but Coyle is only in charge of them since June and should be afforded at least a few years and be given the best players in the world to get his tactics right and prove his ignorant doubters wrong...............KingCoyle