Catalan independence referendum, 2017

EagererBeaver

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Spain reverting to fascist times with the actions of the Spanish authorities

That's such a tired and manipulative response. Police crackdowns aren't the exclusive preserve of fascists ffs.

A Dub in Glasgo

EagererBeaver wrote: »

That's such a tired and manipulative response. Police crackdowns aren't the exclusive preserve of fascists ffs.

May be tired but it is also true. Spain only became a democracy in the '70s after a fascist dictator ruled the country. The actions of the Spanish authorites are reverting back to those times

EagererBeaver

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

That's such a tired and manipulative response. Police crackdowns aren't the exclusive preserve of fascists ffs.

May be tired but it is also true. Spain only became a democracy in the '70s after a fascist dictator ruled the country. The actions of the Spanish authorites are reverting back to those times

It's not true - just because Spain was fascist, doesn't make this response "fascist". Nothing but propaganda.

HalloweenJack

The Spanish government is actually acting within the confines of the 1978 constitution, one which was specifcally designed to accelerate the democratisation process. One part of the constitution, as I mentioned above, was the recognition of distinct "nationalities" and autonomous statutes, something which had no chance of happening under Franco.

The crackdown is terrible but this is far from fascism. It is extremely ill-advised and unnecessary but, technically speaking, the actions of the Catalan government go against the constitution and this is the way Madrid has chosen to respond. Morally, it is appalling and the Catalans should be allowed to vote.

FrancieBrady

The Spanish are being violently dictatorial and are therefore displaying 'fascistic' tendencies over this.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Spanish authorities are throwing people down stairs and dragging people out of the polling booths by the hair.... I suppose the people had it coming to them for trying to express their opinion

EagererBeaver

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Spanish are being violently dictatorial and are therefore displaying 'fascistic' tendencies over this.

Is being "violently dictatorial" the exclusive preserve of fascism?!

Calling it fascism is lazy, emotive, provocative propaganda intended to recall the days of Franco and link it to the current situation for political gain.

Images that recall something do not mean the state is reverting to fascism

FrancieBrady

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Is being "violently dictatorial" the exclusive preserve of fascism?!

Calling it fascism is lazy, emotive, provocative propaganda intended to recall the days of Franco and link it to the current situation for political gain.

Images that recall something do not mean the state is reverting to fascism

It is a word that describes certain behaviour.

Dictatorial violence is fascistic.

Any comparison to Franco or others who used dictatorial violence in history is up to yourself tbh.

Doesn't make it untrue.

Jolly Red Giant

HalloweenJack wrote: »

There are some clandestine fascists and I have seen the Franco era flag too but most of them are just proud Spaniards, they've just picked an opportune moment to start displaying their patriotism.

This is not 'patriotism'

Jolly Red Giant

Disgusting police brutality in Barcelona -

A Dub in Glasgo

There are plenty of videos of the police / paramilitary police battering peaceful people who wanted to express their opinion. The EU need to act against Spain. The BBC reporting it as 'clashes' which is plainly wrong

Members of the fire services in uniform protecting the public from the police

Mutant z

The brutality of the Spanish police will only turn more undecided voters to turn more towards independence.

EagererBeaver

FrancieBrady wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Is being "violently dictatorial" the exclusive preserve of fascism?!

Calling it fascism is lazy, emotive, provocative propaganda intended to recall the days of Franco and link it to the current situation for political gain.

Images that recall something do not mean the state is reverting to fascism

It is a word that describes certain behaviour.

Dictatorial violence is fascistic.

Any comparison to Franco or others who used dictatorial violence in history is up to yourself tbh.

Doesn't make it untrue.

Well no, when someone talks about "reverting to fascism" they are directly linking it to Franco.

Fascism is not "a word that describes certain behaviour". It is an ideology, of which some of that behaviour may be a characteristic.

Avatar MIA

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Disgusting police brutality in Barcelona -

The police looked to be well outnumbered. Not sure if they were brave or set up to be attacked to make the protestors look in the wrong. After they started attacking with the batons the crowd were remarkably restrained.

FrancieBrady

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Well no, when someone talks about "reverting to fascism" they are directly linking it to Franco.

Fascism is not "a word that describes certain behaviour". It is an ideology, of which some of that behaviour may be a characteristic.

not if you use the word with a small 'f'.

It is what it is, dictatorial violence to suppress. That is 'fascistic' all day long, no matter who did what in history.

johnp001

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is a word that describes certain behaviour.

Dictatorial violence is fascistic.

Any comparison to Franco or others who used dictatorial violence in history is up to yourself tbh.

Doesn't make it untrue.

There is no way that this can be described as "dictatorial" violence. The Spanish government is the legitimate authority and is acting in accordance with the constitution.
It might be described as "authoritarian" violence. Its important to remember the difference as most violence that happens in the world is legal and fully authorised by the laws of the state at the time.

HalloweenJack

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

This is not 'patriotism'

In that instance, it's ill-informed patriotism, absolutely idiotic that people would hark back to Franco because it was a brutally-repressive regime. What's happening right now is not on the same scale of Franco repression, there's no need to exaggerate.

Again, I live here. I saw one of those marches the other day as I was walking past. They were not waving Franco flags, they were not giving the fascist salute. There are plenty of people flying flags but there are very few of them which are the Franco version. The majority of Spaniards outside Catalunya don't want Catalunya to be independent, regardless of their political viewpoints. This isn't a question of right vs. left, patriotism can be a symbol of the right and the left.

It's very convenient for those supporting Catalunya to suggest that in other parts of Spain those who oppose its independence are fascists, just as its very convenient for those in the rest of Spain to accuse Catalans of anti-Spaniard sentiment.

Akrasia

One of the central principles of democracy is that the government rules with the consent of the people.

It is anti democratic to impose central government onto a population that want to be independent, and it is blatantly anti democratic to use police violence to shut down a referendum.

super_furry

Honestly don't think Spain could be making more of a mess of this. They're turning people against independence into supporters and making the argument for independence by sending in the riot squad and storm troopers.

They should have ignored the whole thing from start to finish.

FrancieBrady

johnp001 wrote: »

There is no way that this can be described as "dictatorial" violence. The Spanish government is the legitimate authority and is acting in accordance with the constitution.
It might be described as "authoritarian" violence. Its important to remember the difference as most violence that happens in the world is legal and fully authorised by the laws of the state at the time.

I think the Catalans would believe that they are being dictated to.

So carry on with the semantics, it really doesn't matter.

FCIM

HalloweenJack wrote: »

The Spanish state recognises that there are distinct "nationalities" that exist within the borders of the country which are Catalunya, the Basque Country, Galicia and Andalucia. This is an official recognition that these areas are somewhat different to the rest of Spain. That is far more recognition than Leitrim gets.

I think common sense also comes into play and people can see when a group has a case for self-determination.

Not just in Madrid, tbf. I live in Cordoba and there are a number of Spanish flags to be seen from my balcony and last week there was a "March for Spanish Unity". Tbf, while it was mostly older people, it wasn't all fascists and this is an important distinction that needs to be made: the Spanish Unionists, shall we say, come from all parts of the political spectrum. There are some clandestine fascists and I have seen the Franco era flag too but most of them are just proud Spaniards, they've just picked an opportune moment to start displaying their patriotism.

There's a world of difference between being a "unionist" and a "fascist". Applies to Spain, Ireland, the UK and anywhere else with these issues. Taken from Ireland, Alex Kane vs Gregory Campbell, both unionists but vastly different ways of expressing their unionism.

professore

oscarBravo wrote: »

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

...look at Brexit for example, in which a very large number of anti-Brexit young people started ranting on social media that democracy was a bad thing, that the people shouldn't have ever been asked to choose...

If you're looking for an exemplar of the beauty of direct democracy in action, you couldn't have picked a much worse example than Brexit. I just don't get this slavish worship of democracy, to the extent of defending the absolute hair-brained stupidity of holding the Brexit referendum on the basis that it doesn't matter if the country is permanently and irreparably damaged; it's what a bare majority of those who voted thought they wanted at the time, therefore it's unarguably the right thing to do.

I'm not arguing that Catalonia shouldn't have a referendum; I'm pointing out that Brexit is almost as perfect an example as you could hope to find of why referendums are a terrible idea.

They are less terrible than rule by diktat.

GalwayMagpie

Madrid has lost the plot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsHNIrS7-s

professore

johnp001 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is a word that describes certain behaviour.

Dictatorial violence is fascistic.

Any comparison to Franco or others who used dictatorial violence in history is up to yourself tbh.

Doesn't make it untrue.

There is no way that this can be described as "dictatorial" violence. The Spanish government is the legitimate authority and is acting in accordance with the constitution.
It might be described as "authoritarian" violence. Its important to remember the difference as most violence that happens in the world is legal and fully authorised by the laws of the state at the time.

You mean legal and fully authorised by the laws of the state as happened in Hitler's Germany?

Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

Edit: we are making the same point.

EagererBeaver

Akrasia wrote: »

One of the central principles of democracy is that the government rules with the consent of the people.

It is anti democratic to impose central government onto a population that want to be independent, and it is blatantly anti democratic to use police violence to shut down a referendum.

But a majority of that population don't want to be independent.

EagererBeaver

FrancieBrady wrote: »

johnp001 wrote: »

There is no way that this can be described as "dictatorial" violence. The Spanish government is the legitimate authority and is acting in accordance with the constitution.
It might be described as "authoritarian" violence. Its important to remember the difference as most violence that happens in the world is legal and fully authorised by the laws of the state at the time.

I think the Catalans would believe that they are being dictated to.

So carry on with the semantics, it really doesn't matter.

You're the one ****ing up the semantics.

ilkhanid

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Referendums, unless very carefully crafted and targeted are often highly undemocratic. Biases or loaded wording , unfair campaigning and gerrymandering are all major issues to name a few

One of the reasons that Germany has had nothing to do with referendums in the post-war period.

josip wrote: »

Why would it need 80/20?
Brexit was seen as definitive with a 52-48 split and a 72% turnout.

And look how that turned out!

FCIM wrote: »

You do have a point as everything has to have a limit but the popular vote would go a long way to curbing places like Leitrim going for independence. Why does it have to be a problem though to have a place in the middle of a country being independent? Do you think the Vatican and San Marino inhibit Italy's growth, what about Monaco and France?

Spain and italy didn't exist as units when San Marino and the Vatican were constituted. They are relics of the medieval organisation of those areas.

super_furry

Absolutely insane from Madrid.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/914453806712344577

Jolly Red Giant

HalloweenJack wrote: »

In that instance, it's ill-informed patriotism, absolutely idiotic that people would hark back to Franco because it was a brutally-repressive regime. What's happening right now is not on the same scale of Franco repression, there's no need to exaggerate.

Who has claimed that the current repression and brutality by the Spanish state is on the same level as Franco's fascist state.

I am outlining that there are fascist elements involved in the so-called 'unity' protests over the last couple of days.

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Again, I live here. I saw one of those marches the other day as I was walking past. They were not waving Franco flags, they were not giving the fascist salute.

don't know what it was like in Cordoba but have seen reports that there was maybe 600 on the 'March for Spanish Unity' - in contrast there were 40,000 in Bilbao in support of the Catalan people.

My brother-in-law is in Valencia and he says that the 400ish that were on the 'unity' protest in Valencia were almost exclusively made up of far-right and fascist elements who trundled through the streets trying to provoke people wearing pro-Catalan badges into fighting them -

HalloweenJack wrote: »

The majority of Spaniards outside Catalunya don't want Catalunya to be independent, regardless of their political viewpoints. This isn't a question of right vs. left, patriotism can be a symbol of the right and the left.

Just because the majority of the rest of the Spanish state think that Catalunya should not be independent does not mean they can impose their views on the people in that region.

And actually - you are wrong - the support/opposition in relation to the rights of different Spanish regions breaks down almost exclusively on a right-left basis.

HalloweenJack wrote: »

It's very convenient for those supporting Catalunya to suggest that in other parts of Spain those who oppose its independence are fascists, just as its very convenient for those in the rest of Spain to accuse Catalans of anti-Spaniard sentiment.

Again - who has made these claims? I certainly haven't - but it is clear that the Spanish state and the right-wing Rajoy government are willing to use large-scale repression to impose the interests of the Spanish elites against the interest of the Catalan masses (whether the Catalan people want independence or not - because there is massive support for the holding of a referendum in Catalunya).

Jolly Red Giant

super_furry wrote: »

Absolutely insane from Madrid.

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/914453806712344577

And an absolutely fantastic display of working class solidarity by the Catalan firefighters - protecting the people of the region in their day-to-day jobs and now protecting people from the brutality of the police and the Spanish state.