Catalan independence referendum, 2017

Madrid has to be doing this on purpose. No way could they be so inept and tone-deaf.

FCIM

GalwayMagpie wrote: »

Madrid has lost the plot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsHNIrS7-s

The Spanish establishment has made a complete hames of this. The only explanation I can come up with is that they're bricking it that an independence vote could lead to the break up in Spain. Nothing else explains the polar opposites that are their behaviour and the behaviour of the British establishment in the Scottish referendum. The Brits didn't want to lose Scotland and worked hard for a union vote but were very relaxed about the referendum in itself taking place. The Scots voted, the result was decided and people moved on. The indos are still pushing their idea, the unionists are undoubtedly prepared to forward their case again if necessary but the whole episode was conducted in possibly the most mature and adult manner a referendum has ever been conducted in. The Spanish have made a cow's willy of the whole thing, given the Catalan indos every reason and evidence for pushing their campaign irrespective of the result and have probably put indos in other parts of Spain on edge, not least the Basque country. They've sown a vendetta and, of what sort remains to be seen, are going to reap a whirlwind. Sorry to say but the Spanish establishment deserves every bit of what comes after this.

FrancieBrady

EagererBeaver wrote: »

You're the one ****ing up the semantics.

I am using perfectly legitimate words to describe certain behaviours.

You are getting upset about comparisons I never made.

johnp001

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the Catalans would believe that they are being dictated to.

So carry on with the semantics, it really doesn't matter.

What matters is that this violence is constitutional and legal in Spain which is a constitutional democracy with a legitimate government.
It is too easy to cry Fascism and Dictatorship when the ugly side of state authority is revealed when in reality the current events in Catalonia are completely consistent with a system of authority that everyone in western Europe submits to and is complicit with.
Violence is just as bad when it is carried out legally and with authority from the state. It shouldn't take the fact that it is happening in Europe this week to bring this home to us. European armies have been committing violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc for years.
I laud your objection to violence but as long as we continue to deny that it is constantly occurring under the system of government that we all submit to and support (as taxpayers) and is not some aberration then it will continue.

Jolly Red Giant

johnp001 wrote: »

I laud your objection to violence but as long as we continue to deny that it is constantly occurring under the system of government that we all submit to and support and is not some aberration then it will continue.

No all of us ----

GalwayMagpie

FCIM wrote: »

The Spanish establishment has made a complete hames of this. The only explanation I can come up with is that they're bricking it that an independence vote could lead to the break up in Spain. Nothing else explains the polar opposites that are their behaviour and the behaviour of the British establishment in the Scottish referendum. The Brits didn't want to lose Scotland and worked hard for a union vote but were very relaxed about the referendum in itself taking place. The Scots voted, the result was decided and people moved on. The indos are still pushing their idea, the unionists are undoubtedly prepared to forward their case again if necessary but the whole episode was conducted in possibly the most mature and adult manner a referendum has ever been conducted in. The Spanish have made a cow's willy of the whole thing, given the Catalan indos every reason and evidence for pushing their campaign irrespective of the result and have probably put indos in other parts of Spain on edge, not least the Basque country. They've sown a vendetta and, of what sort remains to be seen, are going to reap a whirlwind. Sorry to say but the Spanish establishment deserves every bit of what comes after this.

The thing is, if Madrid held a referendum, fought democratically and not with batons and bullets, Madrid probably would have won. They have now sown the seeds of an new wave of people, from all over Spain, demanding freedom from Madrid.

bilbot79

I noticed people 'standing' with the catalonians. Mostly those with a very Republican stance.

I don't see why catalonians should be independent though. Spain is one country and you shouldn't have bits of it just breaking away.

I can only imagine the next referendum will be in cork. Or maybe the Healy raes will break Kerry free so they can do their politics at 7am

Itssoeasy

Lads, I think its fair to say that whether you agree with the referendum being legal or not. It's hard not to look at the videos and pictures of the national police of Spain and not be appalled by some of the pictures. The words copybook and blotted come to mind.

godskitchen

bilbot79 wrote: »

I noticed people 'standing' with the catalonians. Mostly those with a very Republican stance.

I don't see why catalonians should be independent though. Spain is one country and you shouldn't have bits of it just breaking away.

I can only imagine the next referendum will be in cork. Or maybe the Healy raes will break Kerry free so they can do their politics at 7am

Jesus, do some reading on the history of Spain. What you just said is like someone from England saying NI should be part of the UK, what next, Milton Keynes breaking away.

FrancieBrady

johnp001 wrote: »

What matters is that this violence is constitutional and legal in Spain which is a constitutional democracy with a legitimate government.
It is too easy to cry Fascism and Dictatorship when the ugly side of state authority is revealed when in reality the current events in Catalonia are completely consistent with a system of authority that everyone in western Europe submits to and is complicit with.
Violence is just as bad when it is carried out legally and with authority from the state. It shouldn't take the fact that it is happening in Europe this week to bring this home to us. European armies have been committing violence in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc for years.
I laud your objection to violence but as long as we continue to deny that it is constantly occurring under the system of government that we all submit to and support (as taxpayers) and is not some aberration then it will continue.

There is a difference between using the word 'Fascism' and the word 'fascistic'

To be 'fascistic' is to use dictatorial violence.
I am not interested in Franco etc etc or people getting upset by that comparison.
I am merely describing what we can all see happening right now in Spain.

Avatar MIA

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

And an absolutely fantastic display of working class solidarity by the Catalan firefighters - protecting the people of the region in their day-to-day jobs and now protecting people from the brutality of the police and the Spanish state.

What?

And the police are white collar I suppose. This has nothing to do with "class"

bilbot79

godskitchen wrote: »

Jesus, do some reading on the history of Spain. What you just said is like someone from England saying NI should be part of the UK, what next, Milton Keynes breaking away.

I don't agree with that comparison but even so I still don't see anything good coming from an independent catalonian state. If anything countries need to get closer together now not farther apart

FCIM

GalwayMagpie wrote: »

The thing is, if Madrid held a referendum, fought democratically and not with batons and bullets, Madrid probably would have won. They have now sown the seeds of an new wave of people, from all over Spain, demanding freedom from Madrid.

Agreed. I think the Spanish establishment is writing its suicide note. They've just in the last while gotten what they wanted in terms of ETA and they're now sowing the seed of similar in Catalonia and potentially elsewhere. Idiocy doesn't cover it.

ilkhanid

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a difference between using the word 'Fascism' and the word 'fascistic'

To be 'fascistic' is to use dictatorial violence.
I am not interested in Franco etc etc or people getting upset by that comparison.
I am merely describing what we can all see happening right now in Spain.

One can't separate 'fascistic' from 'fascism'. This word has become totally degraded and rendered meaningless through sloppy usage. What did we do, how did we describe violence for authoritarian ends or perpetrated by authoritarian parties before 1933? What happened to good, old-fashioned words like 'tyranny', 'tyrannical', 'despotic', 'dictatorial','autocratic', 'repressive' etc. When, say, the First Triumvirate massacred it's enemies was it acting in a fascist manner?
And, by the way, it's arguable that even Franco wasn't a fascist by the proper definition of the word (although he had fascists fighting on his side).

recedite

Pictures of the "rubber bullets" show they are more like the size of tennis balls, so nothing like as lethal as the plastic bullets that were used in NI. I'd say they'd still be more painful than paintballs though.

The problem now for Madrid is that they have used force, but not enough to stop the referendum completely. This is now the injured wasp that will come back to sting them.

Samaris

My -preference- is that Catalonia stays within Spain and we don't have the risk of an EU country breaking up. So insofar as that goes, I would personally prefer that Catalonia remains as is. What can I say, I like stability and there's precious little of it about lately.

However, if a large enough portion of the population want to assert their rights to put the question to a self-contained region, they should be allowed to do so in a non-binding referendum. Preferably one where Spain's perspective (as the country they are currently part of) and the likelyhood of Catalonia being able to stand alone are both considered and the facts put to the populace. This has a major effect on both Spain as a whole and the Catalan region. All that aside, squashing it by force is the worst possible response.

As for where I'll stand if Catalonia manages a vote for independence, I don't know, but I'll be certainly inclined to blame Madrid's heavy-handed efforts, given the general stance on actual independence was probably not going to pass it alone.

FrancieBrady

ilkhanid wrote: »

One can't separate 'fascistic' from 'fascism'. This word has become totally degraded and rendered meaningless through sloppy usage. What did we do, how did we describe violence for authoritarian ends or perpetrated by authoritarian parties before 1933? What happened to good, old-fashioned words like 'tyranny', 'tyrannical', 'despotic', 'dictatorial','autocratic', 'repressive' etc. When, say, the First Triumvirate massacred it's enemies was it acting in a fascist manner?
And, by the way, it's arguable that even Franco wasn't a fascist by the proper definition of the word (although he had fascists fighting on his side).

If you are not prone to emotional and fairly pointless reactions the word is perfectly adequate.

Lots of words are proscribed if you are going to get PC about the world. I'm not PC, I guess.

recedite

Samaris wrote: »

I would personally prefer that Catalonia remains as is. What can I say, I like stability and there's precious little of it about lately.

However, if a large enough portion of the population want to assert their rights to put the question to a self-contained region, they should be allowed to do so in a non-binding referendum.

You're a bit behind the times; that happened on Sunday, 9 November 2014.

One thing about this whole referendum is that it forces people around Europe to think a bit deeper. At first it was just "those pesky nationalists/populists are at it again, this time it's in Catalonia" but now its "the fascists in Madrid are repressing the working classes of Catalonia".
Of course neither of these is an accurate narrative.

godskitchen

bilbot79 wrote: »

I don't agree with that comparison but even so I still don't see anything good coming from an independent catalonian state. If anything countries need to get closer together now not farther apart

Yes, you decide what is best for the people in Barcelona and surrounding areas. They don't just want independence for the fun of it, clearly they are not happy, or a significant proportion at least, with the way the region is being treated by Madrid. I know how I would feel if a policy enacted by a government I don't think should be ruling my country resulted in terror attacks like the recent ones.

Let the people vote, just like the UK did with Scotland. I would have thought the Irish would be a little more understanding that's things are not always black and white.

Samaris

Well, that adds a whole new context, yeah.

My stance remains much the same, mind you. It does make it more worrying for the Spanish government though, despite the general polling indicating it wasn't so sure which way people would vote, just that they wanted -to- vote.

ilkhanid

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you are not prone to emotional and fairly pointless reactions the word is perfectly adequate.

Lots of words are proscribed if you are going to get PC about the world. I'm not PC, I guess.

and I'd argue that it isn't, that it's use is a symptom of laziness and a casual attitude to both to the facts and to history, where slagging somebody or some country or institution with a second-hand term indifferently used because it's regarded as a "very bad thing" substitutes for exactitude and a concern for the facts. This isn't PC it's common sense. As I pointed out there were plenty of perfectly adequate words available before the rise of the practise of flogging this dead horse...and that's not today or yesterday, as we see from George Orwell's remarks
http://orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc

recedite

Samaris wrote: »

It does make it more worrying for the Spanish government though, despite the general polling indicating it wasn't so sure which way people would vote, just that they wanted -to- vote.

The polls pretty much indicated a similar result to what happened with Trump and Brexit; a narrow majority overturning the status quo.
And that's when Madrid ended its previous policy of just ignoring what was going on in Catalonia, and switched to the new policy of forcibly preventing the people from voting.

Its a strange situation, but in these scenarios the people who normally like to think of themselves as being the progressive/liberal element of society find themselves opposing change, and even opposing democracy itself.

FrancieBrady

ilkhanid wrote: »

and I'd argue that it isn't, that it's use is a symptom of laziness and a casual attitude to both to the facts and to history, where slagging somebody or some country or institution with a second-hand term indifferently used because it's regarded as a "very bad thing" substitutes for exactitude and a concern for the facts. This isn't PC it's common sense. As I pointed out there were plenty of perfectly adequate words available the rise of the practise of flogging this dead horse...and that's not today or yesterday, as we see from George Orwell's remarks
http://orwell.ru/library/articles/As_I_Please/english/efasc

So in essence, we are not allowed to use a perfectly legitimate word to describe what we see?

Fair enough, I will ignore your sensitivities on this, and continue to use the language I see fit to use. It is imo what it is without regard to any historical references.



And I will leave the semantics to you and others.

Zico !

Dirty Franco pigs beating the sh1t out of the voters.

These tactics will insure the movement gets bigger

Visca Barce

Samaris

recedite wrote: »

The polls pretty much indicated a similar result to what happened with Trump and Brexit; a narrow majority overturning the status quo.
And that's when Madrid ended its previous policy of just ignoring what was going on in Catalonia, and switched to the new policy of forcibly preventing the people from voting.

Its a strange situation, but in these scenarios the people who normally like to think of themselves as being the progressive/liberal element of society find themselves opposing change, and even opposing democracy itself.

No harm in opposing change if one feels that the change is not beneficial. The problem is when a peaceful vote results in rubber bullets and riot police.

Jolly Red Giant

Avatar MIA wrote: »

What?

And the police are white collar I suppose.

The police are state forces implementing the brutal repression of the Spanish state on the Catalan people.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

This has nothing to do with "class"

It has everything to do with class - the ruling elites of the Spanish state will not tolerate the Catalan masses exercising their democratic rights.

Water John

The Belgian PM has called for an end to the violence.
This is interesting because Belgium is basically two countries in one.

Video of police attacked the Catalan Firefighters, really stupid move.

Zico !

Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

FrancieBrady

Water John wrote: »

The Belgian PM has called for an end to the violence.
This is interesting because Belgium is basically two countries in one.

Video of police attacked the Catalan Firefighters, really stupid move.

I am convinced they are trying to get the Catalans to respond violently.

Samaris

Zico ! wrote: »

Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

Has -military- force been used? Riot police are civil, unless something's gone very awry.

I point this out not agreeing with the violence used at all, but accuracy is important in claims like that.