Catalan independence referendum, 2017

recedite

Zico ! wrote: »

Article 7 of the European Union Treaty
"Suspension of any Member State that uses military force on its own population."

Which treaty would that be? Watch out for the old Fake News.

Samaris

With mild irony, it's the Lisbon Treaty, that old reducer of human rights!

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-1-common-provisions/7-article-7.html
Article 7 above, although it makes frequent reference to Article 2, which is short enough to quote directly;

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

I don't see a specific reference to military use, although I have no doubt that that would be the sort of thing that could lead to it. It has never been used, but it was mooted regarding Poland's mischief a few months ago with their court system.

HalloweenJack

Surely "military force" would refer to the army?

In this case it is the police force that are knocking people about.

EagererBeaver

Zico ! wrote: »

Dirty Franco pigs beating the sh1t out of the voters.

These tactics will insure the movement gets bigger

Visca Barce

Ah, I see the highly intelligent lads are starting to weigh in.

It's Barca, not Barce. Also, why the **** are you bringing a football club into it?

feargale

bilbot79 wrote: »

I noticed people 'standing' with the catalonians. Mostly those with a very Republican stance.

I don't see why catalonians should be independent though. Spain is one country and you shouldn't have bits of it just breaking away.

I can only imagine the next referendum will be in cork. Or maybe the Healy raes will break Kerry free so they can do their politics at 7am

We can take it then that you would have opposed Lithuanian independence from the USSR, Norwegian independence from Sweden, Greek independence from the Ottoman Empire, Polish independence from its three neighbours, and Irish independence from the United Kingdom.

Water John

Seems the figures are 460 injured, 12 in total on the police side.

josip

Water John wrote: »

Seems the figures are 460 injured, 12 in total on the police side.

Any sprained wrists in the 12 police injuries?

recedite

Samaris wrote: »

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-1-common-provisions/7-article-7.html

I don't see a specific reference to military use

No neither do I. Nor to any mechanism for "suspension of a member state".

However, as discussed earlier in the thread, the Catalan people may be able to claim certain rights as EU citizens, but the European Commission has made it clear that it does not want to get involved. As has the Irish govt.
And if any European state was going to get involved it should really be Ireland, given the uncanny parallels in our history, as also discussed earlier.

Zico !

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Ah, I see the highly intelligent lads are starting to weigh in.

It's Barca, not Barce. Also, why the **** are you bringing a football club into it?

We're all pretty bored of your incessant trolling efforts. It's getting pretty tedious

Doltanian

The Catalans would be perfectly entitled to fight back and send body bags back to Madrid, the Spanish state is denying them their democratic right to self determination. The Spanish State should have just ignored this but their crackdown will create martyrs and today could well be Catalonia's Easter Rising Moment when the tide will turn against the Spanish State. If it descends into Chaos then every single leftist and Antifa from Europe will back the Catalans. I am very Right Wing myself but I support the Catalan effort for self determination, let it go to a Vote and respect the outcome.

johnnyskeleton

Zico ! wrote: »

Dirty Franco pigs beating the sh1t out of the voters.

These tactics will insure the movement gets bigger

Visca Barce

Mod note:

Please read the charter before posting again. Posts of this kind are not serious political debate.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Ah, I see the highly intelligent lads are starting to weigh in.

It's Barca, not Barce. Also, why the **** are you bringing a football club into it?

Zico ! wrote: »

We're all pretty bored of your incessant trolling efforts. It's getting pretty tedious

Mod note:

Please see the charter re: what to do if another poster appears to breach the charter. Please report such posts, rather than commenting on thread.

Slieve Gullion

The images coming in are very distressing, I really do hope that things
aren't about to take a giant step backwards in that part of the world.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

I think I'd be mildly on the side of "remain", and it seems to me that most Catalans are the same - but the Madrid government are handling extremely badly.

I'm 100% for the rights of self determination, and if a sizable majority of people want to break away (NOT 50%+1person) then go ahead and start state building.

Overall though, I don't regard this attmpeted "balkanisation" of Europe as a good thing at all.

Avatar MIA

josip wrote: »

Any sprained wrists in the 12 police injuries?

Welts from holding the batons too tightly?

From what I've seen the protestors have behaved very well, which may not be to Madrid's liking.

Water John

Well balkanisation has led to peace in that region. The break up caanot be blamed for the bloodshed. Enforcing them to stay together would have lead to a far worse and ongoing situation.
What is the obsession with large countries? Does it matter if the EU is 27 or 32?
There are a few clear areas that are distinct within present day countries. Spain has 2 of these.

bilbot79

godskitchen wrote: »

Yes, you decide what is best for the people in Barcelona and surrounding areas. They don't just want independence for the fun of it, clearly they are not happy, or a significant proportion at least, with the way the region is being treated by Madrid. I know how I would feel if a policy enacted by a government I don't think should be ruling my country resulted in terror attacks like the recent ones.

Let the people vote, just like the UK did with Scotland. I would have thought the Irish would be a little more understanding that's things are not always black and white.

This will always be the argument but a line has to be drawn somewhere. We just can't have every region claiming independence. Well all disintegrate into parts and be walked over by greater powers.

The UK referendums were hair brained ideas by a PM that thought he had it all in the bag. The Catalan referendum wouldn't be happening if he hadn't made that misstep.

Madrid f***Ed up here but Spain is an indivisible sovereign nation and it's courts ruled the referendum illegal. That should be respected. The idea that every Tom dick and Harry has the absolute right to self determination is pie in the sky. It's the easy, individualistic stance that most people will take because they aren't responsible for the greater good. As a European citizen I think this is a bad thing for Europe as a global force.

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

Water John wrote: »

Well balkanisation has led to peace in that region. The break up caanot be blamed for the bloodshed. Enforcing them to stay together would have lead to a far worse and ongoing situation.
What is the obsession with large countries? Does it matter if the EU is 27 or 32?
There are a few clear areas that are distinct within present day countries. Spain has 2 of these.

Obsession?

This ridiculous position of putting extremes on people's posts and discussion points is a cancer on online forums, from here to Reddit and other places.

Jesus, like most people I'm hovering in or around the middle ground, I'm not educated enough, and I doubt anyone here is, to give full and cogent arguments on either side of this situation, yet I'm ascribed an "obsession" from some random commenter. Nice one pal.

Water John

Bilbot my earlier post above it answers you.
There are distinct visible areas in EU countries that could to have grounds for nationhood. Spain happens to have 2 of those. It has no effect on the effectivenss and purpose of the EU.

Avatar MIA

bilbot79 wrote: »

The idea that every Tom dick and Harry has the absolute right to self determination is pie in the sky. It's the easy, individualistic stance that most people will take because they aren't responsible for the greater good. As a European citizen I think this is a bad thing for Europe as a global force.

Someone's on message.

The above has to be the most cringe worthy paragraph I've read on Boards.ie. "Know thy place serfs"

EagererBeaver

Zico ! wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Ah, I see the highly intelligent lads are starting to weigh in.

It's Barca, not Barce. Also, why the **** are you bringing a football club into it?

We're all pretty bored of your incessant trolling efforts. It's getting pretty tedious

What's tedious is ill informed, ignorant commentary from people who spout bluster but clearly don't have a clue what they're on about. Like you.

You still haven't explained why on earth you were banging on about a football team.

Water John

I presume the original Spanish intent was to disrupt enough polling stations to delegitamise any result.
I know they say it's illegal but the moral force of a seemingly full and transparent ballot is important for them, to nullify.

Big contrast here between the UK and EU response. Colonial Britain is alive and well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live

bilbot79

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Someone's on message.

The above has to be the most cringe worthy paragraph I've read on Boards.ie. "Know thy place serfs"

Still stands

bilbot79

feargale wrote: »

We can take it then that you would have opposed Lithuanian independence from the USSR, Norwegian independence from Sweden, Greek independence from the Ottoman Empire, Polish independence from its three neighbours, and Irish independence from the United Kingdom.

I would never make such a blase comment.

The Irish comparison is interesting as independence was not so widely sought after until the lads were executed. The Brits shot themselves in the foot there as the Spanish government may well have done here.

ilkhanid

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So in essence, we are not allowed to use a perfectly legitimate word to describe what we see?

It's a perfectly legitimate word in the right place and context.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fair enough, I will ignore your sensitivities on this, and continue to use the language I see fit to use. It is imo what it is without regard to any historical references.

Every word has a history. To ignore that history is to deprive it of meaning.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And I will leave the semantics to you and others.

Not just semantics:accuracy, correctness, clarity

Samaris

recedite wrote: »

No neither do I. Nor to any mechanism for "suspension of a member state".

However, as discussed earlier in the thread, the Catalan people may be able to claim certain rights as EU citizens, but the European Commission has made it clear that it does not want to get involved. As has the Irish govt.
And if any European state was going to get involved it should really be Ireland, given the uncanny parallels in our history, as also discussed earlier.

There is some provision for suspension of voting rights at least - that was mooted for Poland.

Can't really blame any of the EU countries for not wanting to get involved, they've been hanging on to "internal affairs!" as a way of avoiding it. Comment on it positively towards Spain, who is, after all, an EU country as a whole, and and people will be iffy about whether "the EU" is condoning Spanish officials violence against people peacefully attempting to vote. On the other hand, showing any regard for the rights of the Catalan people opens up a whole new can of worms. Even concluding if it is a legal or illegal referendum (and what does that mean for the right to self-determination) is all a rather large can of wriggly things itself.

Eventually, EU countries will probably find themselves having to take a stance somewhere on it. They're really not going to want to though.

Water John wrote: »

Bilbot my earlier post above it answers you.
There are distinct visible areas in EU countries that could to have grounds for nationhood. Spain happens to have 2 of those. It has no effect on the effectivenss and purpose of the EU.

That may be the other reason that Madrid is going all out on this one. Not just one (very rich at that) region, but the potential for the second one revving up again too. At which point Spain may as well reinvent itself as a confederation of city-states! (probably an exaggeration).

A Dub in Glasgo

WTF has Spain decended into with what went on today to stop citizens putting an X on a piece of paper?

Water John

Yeah Rajoy claiming: No Catalonia Referendum Held.

That was the purpose of closing some polling stations and seizing ballot papers.

A Dub in Glasgo

Statement from the Mayor of Barcelona

https://twitter.com/DailyRound/status/914520179626926082

Inquitus

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Statement from the Mayor of Barcelona

Aye, no doubt at all that the Spanish Government have messed up on an epic scale today, even Guy Verhofstad has said from an EU perspective what has gone on is unacceptable.

FrancieBrady

ilkhanid wrote: »

It's a perfectly legitimate word in the right place and context.



Every word has a history. To ignore that history is to deprive it of meaning.



Not just semantics:accuracy, correctness, clarity

There is absolutely nothing inaccurate or wrong with the statement I made. If you wish to draw historical significances to what I said get as offended as you like. That has nothing to do with me. What I said:

The Spanish are being violently dictatorial and are therefore displaying fascistic tendencies over this

.