Catalan independence referendum, 2017

flazio

Going in with riot police to confiscate ballot boxes was a bit stupid in my opinion, should have just let them off and ignore the results.

EagererBeaver

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Rajoy was damned if he did and damned if he didn't when it comes to not letting it go ahead. If it went ahead unhindered and Puigdemont declares victory on 98% voted yes on 45% turnout and declares independence 48 hours later, what is the next step? Send in the army?

Obviously none of that in any way justifies the brutality that has unfolded today or exonerates any of those responsible.

That's the thing - if he simply ignored it, then once the UDI was declared, he could have sent the police in, and/or taken control of the Mossos, but by going in on the actual day, he's even alienated a good portion of Catalan unionists, one suspects.

Possibly. It's worth noting that of the four main parties, only Podemos supported holding the referendum, whilst opposing independence.

Uboat

I can smell Putin is behind the organization of referendum in Catalonia and violence by Spanish police. I am pretty sure Vlad the Emperor is somehow involved. He always is.

Water John

Catalonya had a good degree of local authority almost semi independence in 1936.
Rajoy should have moved long ago and talked but instead slammed the door shut. That is why you ended up with the referendum vote today.

More decentralisation to the regions would end up strengthening Spain.

johnp001

Uboat wrote: »

I can smell Putin is behind the organization of referendum in Catalonia and violence by Spanish police. I am pretty sure Vlad the Emperor is somehow involved. He always is.

The author of this article is Russian and sometimes writes for Sputnik but this article isn't particularly supportive of Catalan independence

Andrew Korybko wrote:

The Catalan Referendum is a classic bait-and-switch operation by Barcelona

The economic elite in Barcelona merely plan to swap Madrid for Brussels as their preferred patron, and are relying on demagogic distractions such as the referendum in order to mislead the Catalan public into thinking that they’re voting for “independence”.
Everyone gets it — the Catalan referendum has exposed the very deep hypocrisy of the Spanish and EU ruling elite, especially in regards to their support for separatist causes elsewhere in the world and the harsh criticism that they regularly dish out anytime governments in the Global South are even suspected of using force against their citizens.

These are very powerful points that are insightful for the larger audience to dwell upon, but when dealing with the specific issue of Catalan separatism, rhetorical schadenfreude isn’t a solid basis for approaching the issue. While it’s true that the Catalan Controversy is a long and storied one, it’s also equally true that the Spanish Constitution forbids separatism, thereby making this “solution” to the problem illegal.

The argument then becomes one about the legitimacy of the Spanish state and whether the supreme law of the land should be respected or not, and objectively speaking, there are no current grounds at this moment to claim that it shouldn’t, even if there was a period of time decades ago where this might have been applicable.
More...

theoneeyedman

Uboat wrote: »

I can smell Putin is behind the organization of referendum in Catalonia and violence by Spanish police. I am pretty sure Vlad the Emperor is somehow involved. He always is.

Well if the news channel RT is an indication, you could be right

Don't agree that the EU can sit on it's hands and not intervene. One of the big claims of the common market/EEC/EU is that it has kept peace in Europe since ww2. It's bollix of course, but it's a claim often trotted out. To have any credibility they must bang heads together, but of course they won't.
Given that a lot of the problems in Spain stem from European /German held debt, you'd think they would be trying to quench this quickly

A Dub in Glasgo

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Rajoy was damned if he did and damned if he didn't when it comes to not letting it go ahead. If it went ahead unhindered and Puigdemont declares victory on 98% voted yes on 45% turnout and declares independence 48 hours later, what is the next step? Send in the army?

Obviously none of that in any way justifies the brutality that has unfolded today or exonerates any of those responsible.

Sweep sweep

EagererBeaver

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Rajoy was damned if he did and damned if he didn't when it comes to not letting it go ahead. If it went ahead unhindered and Puigdemont declares victory on 98% voted yes on 45% turnout and declares independence 48 hours later, what is the next step? Send in the army?

Obviously none of that in any way justifies the brutality that has unfolded today or exonerates any of those responsible.

Sweep sweep

Read the second paragraph there, sweety.

You keep telling yourself you know what you're talking about.

EagererBeaver

https://twitter.com/govern/status/914618211164934144

Samaris

Great. Now what, Madrid?

EagererBeaver

Samaris wrote: »

Great. Now what, Madrid?

Nothing immediate I think, they've said their piece. Wait and see if Puigdemont actually declares independence.

CruelCoin

Illegal or not, the net is awash with videos of people being beaten with sticks for wanting to vote

If Spain wanted people to believe that the vote was a waste of time, then the police should not have been trying to seize ballot papers or shut polling stations.
Just doing that legitimised the whole thing.

If we don't see the PM's head roll, this is going to snowball into some serious violence.

It'll be interesting to see the EU's response to this.

It would be impossible, morally, for them to object to Turkey joining on the ground of executive abuse of power if the Spanish PM is given carte blanche to whale away on his own populace.

seamus

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Rajoy was damned if he did and damned if he didn't when it comes to not letting it go ahead. If it went ahead unhindered and Puigdemont declares victory on 98% voted yes on 45% turnout and declares independence 48 hours later, what is the next step? Send in the army?

Holding a referendum and declaring independence are two separate matters.

Like Brexit, the UK didn't just declare themselves out of the EU after the vote, they went through proper channels.

There is no evidence that Catalonia wouldn't/won't do the same thing and arrange for an orderly/negotiated secession.

The Spanish Government would have been far better letting this run and then discussing the outcome with the Catalonians afterwards. Going in with batons and rubber bullets is a great way to turn everyone against you. Even those who voted against independence will react badly to being told that you're not entitled to have a voice.

The regional security forces were reportedly reluctant, so if this things rumbles on, the Catalonian government will have control over the police (and possibly military) forces in Catalonia.

Then what? Can Spain really send in the military to take control of a region which hasn't made any military threats? What would that even mean?

The Spanish Government have painted themselves into a corner by immediately using force. They've run out of cards to play. Anyone they arrest and imprison is a martyr. Security forces on the streets of Catalonia are oppressors denying democracy.
Catalonian independence is now basically a foregone conclusion whether it happens next week or in a decade.

johnnyskeleton

Uboat wrote: »

I can smell Putin is behind the organization of referendum in Catalonia and violence by Spanish police. I am pretty sure Vlad the Emperor is somehow involved. He always is.

Mod note:

Please read the charter re: serious debate. If you wish to make such significant allegations you would need to have something to back it up beyond a general suspicion about Putin.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Sweep sweep

Mod note:

Below the standards of debate required. Either substantively rebut the post, report if it breaches the charter or, failing that, ignore it.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Read the second paragraph there, sweety.

You keep telling yourself you know what you're talking about.

Mod note:

Please be civil and debate the points seriously. You were warned previously in this thread.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

https://twitter.com/govern/status/914618211164934144

Mod note:

Please supply your own commentary rather than just making twitter dumps.

ilkhanid

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing inaccurate or wrong with the statement I made. If you wish to draw historical significances to what I said get as offended as you like. That has nothing to do with me. What I said: .

The first half of what you said was arguable-the second half is nonsense. There is a large gulf between high-handed and possibly violent behaviour by the authories and fascism. By your sloppy use of the word dozens of governments, including the Unionists in Northern Ireland in 1968-9 were 'fascistic'.

Water John

You know the hard road you have taken when you bring in outside forces to do a job that the local police/military will not do.

There is video of local police protecting the people from these outside brigades.

johnnyskeleton

ilkhanid wrote: »

The first half of what you said was arguable-the second half is nonsense. There is a large gulf between high-handed and possibly violent behaviour by the authoriies and fascism. By your sloppy use of the word dozens of governments, including the Unionists in Northern Ireland in 1968-9 were 'fascistic'.

Mod note:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't see the mod warning above, but please be civil when posting.

In any event, I don't think debate about the use of the word facist is helpful to this important topic so lets move on.

alchemist33

Water John wrote: »

You know the hard road you have taken when you bring in outside forces to do a job that the local police/military will not do.

There is video of local police protecting the people from these outside brigades.

Although it was the local police who requested outside backup, apparently. This has been a f*** up ftom the start.

Water John

Those forces then should have been, under the jurisdiction of the local police.

Funny having the Spanish Foreign Minister on Sky. Did he not get the irony.

walshb

Not surprising that social media is awash with people supporting Catalonia and slamming Spain.

Catlans were warned that this referendum was illegal. Spain were dead right to enforce the law. Of course, then when there are clashes and physical altercations the Spanish are made out to be heavy handed. What else do people expect in these hostile situations where 1000s of people are gathered, many very angry and intent on causing trouble.

Spain, as an EU Government should be supported by its fellow neighbors and partners in the EU on this.

You cannot have or allow or be seen to be soft on such issues. There is such a fine line between stability and harmony AND chaos and anarchy.

The whole of Spain will decide on their country and their laws and how their people live.

Uboat

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Well if the news channel RT is an indication, you could be right

I think Spanish authorities together with Bruxelles have to launch an investigation into Russian activities in Spain.

josip

walshb wrote: »

... What else do people expect in these hostile situations where 1000s of people are gathered, many very angry and intent on causing trouble.
...

I thought the people wanted to vote?

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Not surprising that social media is awash with people supporting Catalonia and slamming Spain.

Catlans were warned that this referendum was illegal. Spain were dead right to enforce the law. Of course, then when there are clashes and physical altercations the Spanish are made out to be heavy handed. What else do people expect in these hostile situations where 1000s of people are gathered, many very angry and intent on causing trouble.

Spain, as an EU Government should be supported by its fellow neighbors and partners in the EU on this.

You cannot have or allow or be seen to be soft on such issues. There is such a fine line between stability and harmony AND chaos and anarchy.

The whole of Spain will decide on their country and their laws and how their people live.

The cops beat the **** out of thousands of people, pensioners, firemen, women, jumped off stairs to stamp on people, threw people downstairs. You've seen how restrained the crowds were when attacked by the police but it was the civilians who were "intent on causing trouble"? Come off it, no-one here thinks you actually believe that.

EagererBeaver

seamus wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Rajoy was damned if he did and damned if he didn't when it comes to not letting it go ahead. If it went ahead unhindered and Puigdemont declares victory on 98% voted yes on 45% turnout and declares independence 48 hours later, what is the next step? Send in the army?

Holding a referendum and declaring independence are two separate matters.

Like Brexit, the UK didn't just declare themselves out of the EU after the vote, they went through proper channels.

There is no evidence that Catalonia wouldn't/won't do the same thing and arrange for an orderly/negotiated secession.

The Spanish Government would have been far better letting this run and then discussing the outcome with the Catalonians afterwards. Going in with batons and rubber bullets is a great way to turn everyone against you. Even those who voted against independence will react badly to being told that you're not entitled to have a voice.

The regional security forces were reportedly reluctant, so if this things rumbles on, the Catalonian government will have control over the police (and possibly military) forces in Catalonia.

Then what? Can Spain really send in the military to take control of a region which hasn't made any military threats? What would that even mean?

The Spanish Government have painted themselves into a corner by immediately using force. They've run out of cards to play. Anyone they arrest and imprison is a martyr. Security forces on the streets of Catalonia are oppressors denying democracy.
Catalonian independence is now basically a foregone conclusion whether it happens next week or in a decade.

Again, this is where people with no understanding of the situation inject bluster and emotion into a discussion.

The terms of the legislation they introduced in early September REQUIRED them to declare independence in the event of a Yes vote within 48 hours of the result.

As for the security forces question, you again don't seem to understand how it works - the Mossos are the regional police force in Catalunya and derive their authority from the Generalitat. Each city has a Guardia Urbana, responsible to local authorities. Then you have the national police force, the CNP under the command of the interior ministry and lastly the Guardia Civil, a police force structured along paramilitary lines that comes under both the interior and defence ministries. The Mossos were officially "taken over" last week, but their leadership, rather than get involved and pick one side or the other,sensibly refused to be drawn on the matter and let decisions be taken locally.

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

The cops beat the **** out of thousands of people, pensioners, firemen, women, jumped off stairs to stamp on people, threw people downstairs. You've seen how restrained the crowds were when attacked by the police but it was the civilians who were "intent on causing trouble"? Come off it, no-one here thinks you actually believe that.

"Beat the sh1t" out of them? Now, you don't really believe that?

walshb

walshb wrote: »

"Beat the sh1t" out of them? Now, you don't really believe that?

All the videos are fake news then?

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

All the videos are fake news then?

I'd like to see the "beat the sh1t" out of them ones. I am not saying that there was no physical altercations. There always will be in these situations that are very tense, hostile and bordering on chaos and anarchy.

LuckyLloyd

To be fair, the Catalan government put Madrid in a very difficult position. A resolution in parliament endorsing an official independence stance and organisation of an independence vote that would require Catalonia to declare independence within 48 hours if it was passed. If you're Spain and you are intent on maintaining your territorial integrity what are you to do here? At any stage you step in it's going to be messy and they're going to cry bully. There is an argument that stepping in at this point is the best of a bad range of options - it's policing and it's giving people trying to take part in a vote you've declared illegal a kicking. Sending in troops post declaration of independence a whole lot worse of a starting point imo.

How it plays out from here is very interesting indeed. Catalonia can try and appeal outside of Spain's borders and look for international pressure I guess, but the inference from Madrid is clear: if you actually want to push this we're ready to meet you head on.

ArthurDayne

walshb wrote: »

Not surprising that social media is awash with people supporting Catalonia and slamming Spain.

Catlans were warned that this referendum was illegal. Spain were dead right to enforce the law. Of course, then when there are clashes and physical altercations the Spanish are made out to be heavy handed. What else do people expect in these hostile situations where 1000s of people are gathered, many very angry and intent on causing trouble.

Spain, as an EU Government should be supported by its fellow neighbors and partners in the EU on this.

You cannot have or allow or be seen to be soft on such issues. There is such a fine line between stability and harmony AND chaos and anarchy.

The whole of Spain will decide on their country and their laws and how their people live.

I get what you're saying but the Spanish authorities fell into a trap of their own making. No matter the cause, the image of riot police against the masses has always been a powerful emotive image. Once emotion is injected into these situations, they tend to go up a notch, and the argument will be made that Madrid is now once again the oppressor rather than just the unwanted countryman. Like what happened in the North so many times, attempts to stamp state authority were fumbled by the fact that security forces lost control (in this case - of themselves) and needlessly fuelled further tension. From what I can see, the separatist protesters showed a reasonable degree of restraint and I don't believe that a lack of riot police would have driven Catalonians to 'anarchy' and destroying their own cities.

The key here was restraint - declare the referendum illegal and keep police action to a minimum. The referendum passes but the claim can easily be made that (a) it was unconstitutional so has no legal effect and (b) the world would to a certain extent recognise that the majority of those who go out of their way to vote in an illegal referendum will be pro-separatism. So the referendum result, while invariably a PR victory for the separatists, would have been blunted somewhat by the caveats.

Now all you have is the PR victory of the referendum passing -- and the 'bonus' of a gallery of the classic propaganda image of shielded, dark-uniformed and baton wielding heavies suppressing the [purported] will of the people.

EagererBeaver

That's quite sensible ArthurDayne but the question of what would happen next is still relevant. Say no police activity yesterday - 92% Yes vote on 42% turnout. No minimum turnout. Puigdemont goes ahead, as required to by the very law they claim gives them the authority to hold the referendum, and declares independence tomorrow (although he conveniently wouldn't have mentioned the turnout) - what then? Send the cops in at that stage? Arrest the leaders? Suspend the Estatut? Send in the military?

Obviously made a complete mess of it but I think the logic was probably along the lines of "nip it in the bud".