Catalan independence referendum, 2017

ArthurDayne · 02-10-2017 2:35pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Maybe you should waddle off and look up what terms like "nation" actually mean before you draw up inaccurate parallels. Ireland is a nation divided into two states/statelets, whereas Spain is a state which contains other nations. The analogy with Ireland ends after partition, unless Catalonia gets partitioned. And furthermore, unless you missed the whole GFA and peace process, that is exactly what SF have signed up to.

It's noticeable that the only argument for those opposing Catalan independence is to hide behind the "law", law drawn up for the very reason of holding Catalonia and a few others against their wishes if it came down to it. They can't actually give a solid reason why a nation, distinct from the state it finds itself in and never asked to be in, shouldn't have the right to self-determination

I think for a lot of people, the concerns are less about the legal framework but more about concerns of fractious splits in the EU and indeed the inner Eurozone -- and then even further within a country of Spain's current economic fragility. Personally speaking, I'm neutral on the topic of Catalonian independence as a self-contained issue. Catalonians have every right to have an opinion and there is to my mind certainly enough characteristics of 'nationhood' (as subjective as that is) within Catalonia to at least legitimise the separatist argument. I just don't know enough about it though to have an informed opinion. I did live in Brussels though for some time and my own experience there led me to sway towards the pro-unity side in Belgium's identity crisis; though -- different country, different nuances.

For me, who has looked on and been dismayed by Brexit, Trump and the rise of the vague nebulous promises of populism -- it has made me slightly wary of nationalism, tribalism and 'us and them' mentalities. It has made me wary of arguments which say 'we are sick of sending money to X when we could be spending it on Y' etc etc. Above all, it has made me wary of the pitfalls of patriotism. I'm not trying to say that Catalonian separatists are right wing ultra nationalists by any means, or that they are comparable to Brexiteers or Trump supporters. In fact I think they go about their political ambitions with peaceful and sensible restraint. I just hope though that they are fully aware that independence will be just that: independence. There will be no golden age where their everyday lives are made noticeably better, anymore so than my life will be tangibly enriched by Irish unification. What is damaging to Spain will also have repercussions for the fledgling Catalonian state, and the wider Eurozone. They will have their nation and all the pride that comes with that, they will ideally have a greater say and sovereignty over affairs which affect Catalonia, they will be able to direct the course of their country. But of course -- they will also have a new state government to detest . . .

I appreciate this is could be construed as a rather selfish view on the matter and I defer to those who are more well read on the nuances of Catalonia than I am.

walshb · 02-10-2017 2:40pm

FTA69 wrote: »

By your logic Bloody Sunday was justified, after all the march against internment that day was illegal and all demonstrators were warned by the lawful authorities to stay away from the route. The British Army were placed in a difficult situation, they were upholding the law of the land in a volatile scenario.

In other words you're engaging in absurd reductionism, it's the law therefore it's correct. There's a difference between morality and legality. You seem to be unquestioningly supporting the cops because... they're the cops basically. Why aren't you questioning the logic behind that sort of policing? Why can't you respect the right of the Catalans for self-determination?

The Irish Dáil of 1918 was declared illegal by the British and its members weee jailed; was that justified because it was "the law"?

Bloody Sunday resulted in shootings and deaths....

Not sure what point you are making...I made a general point regarding the difficulties faced for Riot Police doing a job.

Nobody is justifying Bloody Sunday. The Saville Inquiry clearly declared that the deaths were unjustified. I agree on that.

Not sure why it's being referenced here. It's a separate issue. All riot situations are individual events and issues that should be assessed and debated and broken down individually. What happened in one riot/civil scenario doesn't automatically equal another scenario.

Spanish forces/police were required to act to prevent a referendum that Spain deems to be illegal/illegitimate. They did this as a legal EU state.

And I am not unquestionably supporting cops just because they are cops. I am well aware that law enforcement can do bad things, wrong things and illegal things.

AnneFrank · 02-10-2017 2:41pm

Send over the Blueshirts,
Viva la quince brigada !

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 3:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've waddled off and come back with this:
"a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory."

Given the large protestant / unionist population in the north, how is it not a nation? And how is Ireland a 'nation' given that we are very clearly not united by common descent, history, culture or language (see current goings on in Stormont for confirmation of that last point)?

Waddle off and explain that to me.

So two competing cultures of a similar size in the territory of the north are common how exactly? So if they are not common, how does a large group of people with asymmetrical views become a nation? It's the complete opposite.

Culturally Ireland, like all nations, draws is decent from many places, to form a people who identify as one and the same, the only outlier being Ulster-Scots who are a minority within the nation. Ireland didn't stop being a nation just because they arrived. More to the point, we dont even have a cultural outlier of that size in Catalonia so it's even more cut and dried. Is this groundhog day for the slow learning?

As for you snide comments on SF's hypocrisy, how can they be hypocrites unless they supported the partition of Catalonia?

Water John · 02-10-2017 3:04pm

Yes Dayne, I would be very wary of Nationalism esp Bloody Nationalism. More a Daniel O'Connell fan, nation not worth one drop of blood etc.

I don't see Catalans and other distinct ethnic areas, looking at least for a high degree of self governance, as contrary to the interests of the EU. Spain has messed up big time. You talk and those talks should have started a long time back. Then a completely independent Catalonya would probably have not been sought.
But Rajoy and those before him, did not choose that route. That's how they ended up cornered, last Sunday.

EagererBeaver · 02-10-2017 3:11pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's noticeable that the only argument for those opposing Catalan independence is to hide behind the "law", law drawn up for the very reason of holding Catalonia and a few others against their wishes if it came down to it. They can't actually give a solid reason why a nation, distinct from the state it finds itself in and never asked to be in, shouldn't have the right to self-determination

Or, you know, you fact that 60% of the population do not support independence.

02-10-2017 3:12pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So two competing cultures of a similar size in the territory of the north are common how exactly? So if they are not common, how does a large group of people with asymmetrical views become a nation? It's the complete opposite.

Culturally Ireland, like all nations, draws is decent from many places, to form a people who identify as one and the same, the only outlier being Ulster-Scots who are a minority within the nation. Ireland didn't stop being a nation just because they arrived. More to the point, we dont even have a cultural outlier of that size in Catalonia so it's even more cut and dried. Is this groundhog day for the slow learning?

LOL.

When you say things like "to form a people who identify as one and the same", it doesn't make it true.

There are about 6 million people on the island. One million of them, concentrated in the north east of the country, do not 'identify as one and the same' and consider themselves distinct, and do NOT want to be part of a single political entity or state.

You call them "a minority within the nation". So by the same logic can you not claim that the Catalans are "a minority within the (Spanish) nation?

It's EXACTLY like Spain and Catalonia. You can't just say it isn't because it doesn't suit your argument.

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 3:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

LOL.

When you say things like "to form a people who identify as one and the same", it doesn't make it true.

There are about 6 million people on the island. One million of them, concentrated in the north east of the country, do not 'identify as one and the same' and consider themselves distinct, and do NOT want to be part of a single political entity or state.

You call them "a minority within the nation". So by the same logic can you not claim that the Catalans are "a minority within the (Spanish) nation?

It's EXACTLY like Spain and Catalonia. You can't just say it isn't because it doesn't suit your argument.

I never said they wanted to be part of the one state. You are confounding simple terminology. Ulster-Scots is not a nation, Catalonia is. It's that simple.

walshb · 02-10-2017 3:30pm

Catalonia is not a nation IMO. It is part of Spain. An autonomous region in Spain.

02-10-2017 3:31pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I never said they wanted to be part of the one state. You are confounding simple terminology. Ulster-Scots is not a nation, Catalonia is. It's that simple.

Because "The Golden Miller" says so.

Explain which bit of the definition of 'nation' protestants/unionists in the North don't meet that Catalans do?

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 3:32pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Or, you know, you fact that 60% of the population do not support independence.

According to yesterday, 90% do. Or can we only use polls that suit the agenda.

Self-determination then. Going from hiding behind polical jargon to semantics

walshb · 02-10-2017 3:38pm

Even if 100 percent said they wanted independence it cannot be accepted. The EU and Spain are saying that the referendum is not legal.

EagererBeaver · 02-10-2017 3:40pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Or, you know, you fact that 60% of the population do not support independence.

According to yesterday, 90% do. Or can we only use polls that suit the agenda.

Self-determination then. Going from hiding behind polical jargon to semantics

No, 90% of 42% voted yes. What bit don't you understand? The mathematics?
The official poll, commissioned by the Generalitat which is led by a pro-independence coalition, showed 41% in favour of independence.
Yet another ill informed poster weighing in without doing even the slightest bit of research.

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 3:41pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

No, 90% of 42% voted yes. What bit don't you understand? The mathematics?

Aye and 60% of what said they don't exactly?

josip · 02-10-2017 3:44pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

No, 90% of 42% voted yes. What bit don't you understand? The mathematics?

Is your logic valid that all of the 58% who either didn't want to or couldn't vote yesterday, do not support independence?

EagererBeaver · 02-10-2017 3:45pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

No, 90% of 42% voted yes. What bit don't you understand? The mathematics?

Aye and 60% of what said they don't exactly?

Keep digging, just keep on digging there champ.

EagererBeaver · 02-10-2017 3:49pm

josip wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

No, 90% of 42% voted yes. What bit don't you understand? The mathematics?

Is your logic valid that all of the 58% who either didn't want to or couldn't vote yesterday, do not support independence?

I edited my previous piece to explain about the Generalitat poll. It showed 41% in favour of independence and 63% in favour of having a referendum. That's where my logic came from. I wasn't talking about turnout in this discussion until the Golden Miller absurdly tried to claim that yesterday suggested 90% of the population support independence, which is patently untrue.

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 3:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because "The Golden Miller" says so.

Explain which bit of the definition of 'nation' protestants/unionists in the North don't meet that Catalans do?

They are a culture, not a nation. If they were the dominant culture and the indigenous people decided to all leave, then they may have grounds to be considered a nation. The definition you linked clearly shows that a nation is built on the grounds of one shared culture within a territory. Within the north it is two competing cultures within the territory. As I said, the polar opposite to what a nation is. Or do you take it to mean any gathering of people are their own little nations running around in a country, that we've hundred of little nations within our border right now? Cultures certainly, but nations? Even the most hardened southern unionists like Conor Cruise O'Brien never even called the north a nation.

Look man, it doesn't even matter. You have you're opinion, and I have mine, just as SF have theirs. So to bring this back to the original snide point I picked you up on, how are they hypocrites? Because you view the situation differently than they do?

Samaris · 02-10-2017 3:58pm

There is a bit of difficulty regarding what a nation is - is Belgium a nation?

02-10-2017 4:10pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Look man, it doesn't even matter. You have you're opinion, and I have mine, just as SF have theirs. So to bring this back to the original snide point I picked you up on, how are they hypocrites? Because you view the situation differently than they do?

It wasn't a snide point. I am genuinely amazed that SF don't see that arguing in favour of Catalan independence is very, very similar (no analogy is ever perfect) to arguing for the right of the North to not be part of the Republic of Ireland.

The fact is that there are one million people who live in the north east of this island, who form a majority in the territory they occupy, who don't want to be part of our country. You can get into the semantics - "ah, they're a culture, not a nation" (what does that even mean?) but the parallel is obvious to me. Maybe I'm the only one.

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 4:12pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I edited my previous piece to explain about the Generalitat poll. It showed 41% in favour of independence and 63% in favour of having a referendum. That's where my logic came from. I wasn't talking about turnout in this discussion until the Golden Miller absurdly tried to claim that yesterday suggested 90% of the population support independence, which is patently untrue.

No I was saying you had no real reason to oppose self-determination or independence other than hiding behind law and political jargon. You then respond with that 60% figure, so I responded with another, the point is neither matter as we'll never know until it's put to a real vote. But you're against that as you try and hide behind a law and a constitution that is placed there for the very purpose of preventing self-determination for several of the nations within Spain

02-10-2017 4:14pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

If they were the dominant culture and the indigenous people decided to all leave

I'm curious about this point. To be a nation 100% of the population have to be of the same dominant culture? That disqualifies every existing nation from the definition, including, pretty obviously, Catalonia. Less than 5 million of the near 8 million population were born there.

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 4:16pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It wasn't a snide point. I am genuinely amazed that SF don't see that arguing in favour of Catalan independence is very, very similar (no analogy is ever perfect) to arguing for the right of the North to not be part of the Republic of Ireland.

The fact is that there are one million people who live in the north east of this island, who form a majority in the territory they occupy, who don't want to be part of our country. You can get into the semantics - "ah, they're a culture, not a nation" (what does that even mean?) but the parallel is obvious to me. Maybe I'm the only one.

Well I think you are the only one, or a small minority anyway. They want an independent Ireland just like they want an independent Catalonia. Two nations independent

Water John · 02-10-2017 4:17pm

In general I would like a minimum threshold to make any vote valid.

But we don't do that in this country, for example. Many referenda in this country are carried on a lower turnout and tighter margin.

EagererBeaver · 02-10-2017 4:25pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

EagererBeaver wrote: »

I edited my previous piece to explain about the Generalitat poll. It showed 41% in favour of independence and 63% in favour of having a referendum. That's where my logic came from. I wasn't talking about turnout in this discussion until the Golden Miller absurdly tried to claim that yesterday suggested 90% of the population support independence, which is patently untrue.

No I was saying you had no real reason to oppose self-determination or independence other than hiding behind law and political jargon. You then respond with that 60% figure, so I responded with another, the point is neither matter as we'll never know until it's put to a real vote. But you're against that as you try and hide behind a law and a constitution that is placed there for the very purpose of preventing self-determination for several of the nations within Spain

Well no, for one I don't have a vote, but if I did I would likely vote No. I live in Barcelona and I think declaring independence would be catastrophic for the Catalan economy and that, like Brexit, it would be those with least that suffer the most. Catalan economic success has been built over the last five or six decades on the back immigration - first from other parts of Spain, especially Andalucia and more recently from Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. These people would be the ones to suffer, not the elite like Pujol and Mas and Puigdemont.
They would be out of the EU from Day One and, again like Brexit, the independence leaders have completely whiffed on the question of EU membership. Catalunya trades far, far more with the rest of Spain than it does externally. It would be a disaster.
The constitution you refer to so derisively yet clearly know nothing about was approved at the time by an overwhelming majority of the Catalan people.
So there you go - some rationale for my position. Now you go ahead and sit behind your laptop far far away pontificating about things you don't understand and dismissing the opinion or view of anyone you don't agree with because you've made your mind up.

02-10-2017 4:26pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well I think you are the only one, or a small minority anyway. They want an independent Ireland just like they want an independent Catalonia. Two nations independent

Yes, they do have a really weird boner for a sort of 'blood and soil' ethnic nationalism.

Maybe I am the only one who can see it, that doesn't bother me.

The Golden Miller · 02-10-2017 4:35pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, they do have a really weird boner for a sort of 'blood and soil' ethnic nationalism.

Maybe I am the only one who can see it, that doesn't bother me.

Or maybe they just want nations to be able to self-determine their own future, seeing as most were forced into states they wanted no part of

02-10-2017 4:37pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Or maybe they just want nations to be able to self-determine their own future, seeing as most were forced into states they wanted no part of

Yes and they want to start by forcing Northern Ireland into ROI despite the fact that the majority of the population there don't want to join it, because 'reasons'.

Like I say, I don't really get the logic.

CruelCoin · 02-10-2017 4:45pm

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Or, you know, you fact that 60% of the population do not support independence.

That is really simple thinking...

The figure would be far higher had more people actually been able to vote.

With a 90+ yes rate, you really think the entirety of the non-voting block would be in dissent?

ArthurDayne · 02-10-2017 4:45pm

Samaris wrote: »

There is a bit of difficulty regarding what a nation is - is Belgium a nation?

It's all part of a very interesting debate which lends itself particularly well to a discussion on Catalonia because it's a relatively peaceful 'struggle' and therefore the debate can be free of 'who-killed-who' whataboutery.

Many small nations which have emerged in the past 100-200 years have emerged from the era of empire, where imperial powers concentrated power and wealth in their homelands to the detriment of their colonies and satellites. There was subjugation, cruelty, tough punishment and thoroughly less-developed understanding of free speech and multicultural/religious tolerance than we enjoy today in this region of the world. A sense of 'nationhood' arose from a sense of 'we are a distinct people who should govern our own affairs because this empire treats us badly and sees us as subservient to them' etc etc. Indeed, the words 'freedom' and 'nationhood' were somewhat melded, and became rallying cries for places like Ireland, where nationhood rested on the 'Gaelic' identity and resentment of subjugation by the British. Even in Northern Ireland, agitation among the 'Catholic Irish' was fairly limited for a reasonably long time of 50 years before resentment over socio-economic repression fanned the flames of patriotism --- the sense of being Irish and wanting to be part of an Irish nation was not the initial catalyst.

The relevance of all of the above to today however, particularly for a wealthy continent like Europe, is potentially questionable. The Catalonian identity, language and culture are celebrated, respected, practiced and protected. Catalonia is a wealthy part of Europe and like most Europeans, enjoy some of the highest collective standards of living which human beings have ever known. As we have now moved into a world where sovereignty has blurred in the pools of the countless treaties and organisations which countries sign up to -- what does it really mean to be a 'nation' anymore? Is it worth dividing ourselves further and drawing more borders because we feel we owe something to our oppressed ancestors or our patriot dead? Is this arguably a sad indictment of how we have embraced globalisation and a sense of being human rather than dividing ourselves along infantile man-made classifications?

Overall, what does it all really matter on a continent where we enjoy peace, comfort and tolerance? Just some thoughts -- which I trust are relevant to the overall topic (I think).

Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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