Catalan independence referendum, 2017

The Golden Miller

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes and they want to start by forcing Northern Ireland into ROI despite the fact that the majority of the population there don't want to join it, because 'reasons'.

Like I say, I don't really get the logic.

Force? Think you might have missed the whole peace process thingy that happened

CruelCoin

walshb wrote: »

Catalonia is not a nation IMO. It is part of Spain. An autonomous region in Spain.

Catalonia is essentially Aragon, with its own culture, history, language, and ethnicity.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/75/22/8075227f8f3d250a15ba2f0756533a56.jpg

Getting subsumed by a larger neighbour doesn't make a nation disappear. History is littered with examples of reemerging kingdoms.

Also, given the march towards ever-closer-union, we're really only around 10 years from being able to say "Spain is not a nation IMO. It is part of Europa. An autonomous region in Europa"

When papa EU eventually decides that its nations no longer exist, that it's Europa or bust, is that actually the case in your mind?

Samaris

Papa EU cannot decide anything of the sort. The arrangements made are voted on by 27 countries (excluding Britain as of 2019). There is no "Papa EU" who can unilaterally decide anything of such an impact to the membership countries.

Now, if you want to ask will all the individual leaders want such an arrangement and be able to put the question where they need to to their populations and will the head of the European commission etc agree to it, that's another question.

It's a daft question, but it's question slightly more rooted in reality.

Papa EU. Sheesh.

Edit: It's not even remotely the same idea as Catalonia either. Not that I'm agreeing necessarily with the poster you're responding to either.

An Ciarraioch

EagererBeaver wrote: »

No, 90% of 42% voted yes. What bit don't you understand? The mathematics?
The official poll, commissioned by the Generalitat which is led by a pro-independence coalition, showed 41% in favour of independence.
Yet another ill informed poster weighing in without doing even the slightest bit of research.

On a technical point, 16% of the votes were confiscated, which leaves 42% of the electorate abstaining.

A Dub in Glasgo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

On a technical point, 16% of the votes were confiscated, which leaves 42% of the electorate abstaining.

Forcefully confiscated but then again we are probably going to be informed that the thugs in uniforms only confiscated the boxes that contained 'No' votes

recedite

ArthurDayne wrote: »

-- what does it really mean to be a 'nation' anymore? Is it worth dividing ourselves further and drawing more borders because we feel we owe something to our oppressed ancestors or our patriot dead? Is this arguably a sad indictment of how we have embraced globalisation and a sense of being human rather than dividing ourselves along infantile man-made classifications?

Well, one man's "infantile man-made classification" is another man's country and culture, which he is proud to be a part of.

While I do get your point, it is arrogant of you to assume that globalists are the more grown-up or more highly evolved version of nationalists. The philosophy behind what we are dealing with here is quite interesting and this guy explores it in more detail. Suffice it to say, there are two different mentalities involved, each with its own worldview. The (CC) Country&Citizen and the (GG) Groups&Globalist. They may refer to each other using disparaging names, such as "populists" and "the swamp/corrupt elite" but both will continue to exist side by side.

On the question of whether Catalonia specifically is worthy of being called a nation, well geographically it's a bit like Portugal, in that it is located on the Iberian peninsula but it also has its own culture, history and language. Though maybe not quite as distinct as the Portuguese.
Population wise, at 7.5 million it is considerably bigger than the Republic of Ireland and probably even more capable of surviving and prospering as an independent country than we are.

The EU should not be afraid to incorporate smaller countries, on the contrary it should act as an umbrella under which they can all live and co-operate together. By staying quiet except for saying this is Spanish business, the European Commission have taken the lazy/cowardly option.

ArthurDayne

recedite wrote: »

Well, one man's "infantile man-made classification" is another man's country and culture, which he is proud to be a part of.

While I do get your point, it is arrogant of you to assume that globalists are the more grown-up or more highly evolved version of nationalists. The philosophy behind what we are dealing with here is quite interesting and this guy explores it in more detail. Suffice it to say, there are two different mentalities involved, each with its own worldview. The (CC) Country&Citizen and the (GG) Groups&Globalist. They may refer to each other using disparaging names, such as "populists" and "the swamp/corrupt elite" but both will continue to exist side by side.

On the question of whether Catalonia specifically is worthy of being called a nation, well geographically it's a bit like Portugal, in that it is located on the Iberian peninsula but it also has its own culture, history and language. Though maybe not quite as distinct as the Portuguese.
Population wise, at 7.5 million it is considerably bigger than the Republic of Ireland and probably even more capable of surviving and prospering as an independent country than we are.

The EU should not be afraid to incorporate smaller countries, on the contrary it should act as an umbrella under which they can all live and co-operate together. By staying quiet except for saying this is Spanish business, the European Commission have taken the lazy/cowardly option.

'Arrogant' was probably a little unfair given that I think it was at least somewhat clear that I was throwing some points up in the air rather than making definitive statements. Anyway . . .

You speak of pride in country and culture -- but it's strongly arguable that neither of those are equivalent to nationhood, rather just two potential components. Scotland, a country, voted to remain within the wider nation of the UK -- does this dilute their sense of and pride in country and culture? The Scottish electorate, in the main, did not appear to think so. As for myself, from Northern Ireland and with moderate Nationalist leanings, the fact that I am strictly-speaking a British subject and that the part of Ireland I come from is not strictly-speaking part of the Irish nation is something I've reconciled with. I see myself as Irish and the historical grievances of discrimination & repression against those who identified as Irish in Northern Ireland have been addressed (save as regards the Irish language perhaps).

If Ireland unifies, OK great I'll be officially part of the Irish nation. Then I'll get up the next morning, go to work, and have all the same problems in life only with fresh faces to blame for it. In fairness, my own lack of excitement about the concept of 'nationhood' has probably been tinged by the violence witnessed in the North which led me and many, if not most, other moderate Nationalists to the war-weary conclusion of 'this really isn't worth it'. So I would certainly accept that this has warped my view.

So to me it isn't really a question of Catalonia having the characteristics of nationhood - which it probably does. It's more a question of -- what is really to be gained versus what damage may potentially be done?

Floki

ArthurDayne wrote: »

So to me it isn't really a question of Catalonia having the characteristics of nationhood - which it probably does. It's more a question of -- what is really to be gained versus what damage may potentially be done?

This answer won't be as long as others but hopefully hits the point.

I'd say it all comes down to money and control of spending.
Maybe you could throw in having their own police force and controlling that too.
The current one wouldn't have the greatest reputation for restraint. There was an Irish solicitor on the local radio (southeast) saying how he's dealing with a case of torture involving a Ghanaian man and six police officers in Spain. So he knew there would be big trouble yesterday with the police.

hatrickpatrick

Personally I will always support any geographical region which seeks independence from a larger political entity if a majority of the people are in favour of it. Quite apart from this, though, the Spanish government has scored an absolutely massive and moronic own goal by reacting to this vote with violence. They could have let it happen and refused to recognise it if they must have, but violently preventing it from happening has created a movement of martyrs in much the same way as the gunning down of innocent protesters on Bloody Sunday did. If any state or organisation reacts to non-violent opposition through violence, that state in my view automatically loses any credibility it ever had in whatever debate or context the aforementioned violence took place in.

An Ciarraioch

I would suggest that nationhood essentially boils down to cultural uniqueness (Veneto and Bavaria, for instance, hardly seem distinct enough from their parent nation to go it alone) and territorial integrity (ruling out the Vlachs of the Balkans and the Roma). Economic viability is, of course, a major component, but some Saharan African nations have few natural or industrial resources, and the same applies to most Pacific island nations. There are some rather odd exceptions, however - Somaliland, for instance, has more of the attributes of a functioning nation state than Somalia, but has never been recognised by a single UN member.

Fr Tod Umptious

recedite wrote: »

Well, one man's "infantile man-made classification" is another man's country and culture, which he is proud to be a part of.

While I do get your point, it is arrogant of you to assume that globalists are the more grown-up or more highly evolved version of nationalists. The philosophy behind what we are dealing with here is quite interesting and this guy explores it in more detail. Suffice it to say, there are two different mentalities involved, each with its own worldview. The (CC) Country&Citizen and the (GG) Groups&Globalist. They may refer to each other using disparaging names, such as "populists" and "the swamp/corrupt elite" but both will continue to exist side by side.

On the question of whether Catalonia specifically is worthy of being called a nation, well geographically it's a bit like Portugal, in that it is located on the Iberian peninsula but it also has its own culture, history and language. Though maybe not quite as distinct as the Portuguese.
Population wise, at 7.5 million it is considerably bigger than the Republic of Ireland and probably even more capable of surviving and prospering as an independent country than we are.

The EU should not be afraid to incorporate smaller countries, on the contrary it should act as an umbrella under which they can all live and co-operate together. By staying quiet except for saying this is Spanish business, the European Commission have taken the lazy/cowardly option.

They are not afraid to incorporate small countries.
They showed that with the Baltic states and Malta and Cyprus joining in 2004.

What they are afraid of, and rightly if you ask me, is the break up of large existing members.

Water John

Oddly the EU would probably work more smoothly if it was made up of a lot of small countries.

Floki

There's a few things that could happen now...

One. The Spanish government accepts the vote yesterday and declares Catalonia an independent state and the EU begins talks on accession.

Two. The EU intervenes in talks between the two and another referendum is called. This time with Eu and independent observers in polling stations keeping watch and just voting in the state of Catalonia, not the whole country of Spain.

Three. Spain declares the vote illegal and that Catalonia can never vote for independence without the whole Spanish jurisdiction voting for Catalonia to leave.
This angers the thousands of people resident in Catalonia who witnessed the violence yesterday or had family members involved in the vote yesterday leading to union strikes and underground taking up of arms in retaliation against Spain and the EU. Leading to Spain and the EU to declare them terrorists and mayhem ensues.

Water John

Also remember that Spain's Govn't is not in a strong position and could fall.

An Ciarraioch

Floki wrote: »

There's a few things that could happen now...

One. The Spanish government accepts the vote yesterday and declares Catalonia an independent state and the EU begins talks on accession.

Two. The EU intervenes in talks between the two and another referendum is called. This time with Eu and independent observers in polling stations keeping watch and just voting in the state of Catalonia, not the whole country of Spain.

Three. Spain declares the vote illegal and that Catalonia can never vote for independence without the whole Spanish jurisdiction voting for Catalonia to leave.
This angers the thousands of people resident in Catalonia who witnessed the violence yesterday or had family members involved in the vote yesterday leading to union strikes and underground taking up of arms in retaliation against Spain and the EU. Leading to Spain and the EU to declare them terrorists and mayhem ensues.

Latest talk is that Rajoy is considering invoking Article 155, which revokes Catalan autonomy - because similar tactics worked so well for Britain with the First Dáil, obviously!

A Dub in Glasgo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Latest talk is that Rajoy is considering invoking Article 155, which revokes Catalan autonomy - because similar tactics worked so well for Britain with the First Dáil, obviously!

Lunacy from Rajoy if he does that

An Ciarraioch

Water John wrote: »

Also remember that Spain's Govn't is not in a strong position and could fall.

Ironically, being propped up by the PNV just when the mood in the Basque Country is becoming more nationalist again.

Water John

Stupidity, isn't the sole perogative of us, the common people.

Samaris

There's a fourth possibility too - the Spanish government declares the vote illegal and if the president pushes it, fires the Catalonian regional government and takes direct hold until fresh elections can be held. This is really the most likely, if Madrid and Barcelona can't come to the table.

"The EU", i.e. the twenty seven individual countries within it, do not want to take a position and they absolutely don't want "the EU" to take one. They are in a cleft stick. The leaders of the various countries do not want to be encouraging bits of their own countries to get notions. Also, mostly they support democracy and states not loosing the riot police on their own citizens. As it happens, the Catalan referendum was illegal under Spanish law. To take the side of Catalan alienates a member of the EU, is taking side with an illegal referendum of very dubious accuracy (despite that being a good deal to do with the police closing stations and taking ballot boxes), and gives a very dodgy message to all member countries - they didn't want an EU position on Scotland either, and that didn't have half the issues that the Catalonia referendum does. To take the side of Madrid indicates support for the heavy-handed tactics used.

Those that did comment (UK aside, since that was a very wishy-washy comment) tended to decry the violence used and/or support the right of the people to at the least peacefully assemble while trying to avoid commenting too much on the legalities or no of the referendum, as it is an internal matter.

There isn't really a great deal the EU can do about any of this without overstepping the bounds of what the group is. Damned if they do, damned if they don't - I can only imagine the screams of rage if the EU did go about interfering in what individual countries consider their own affairs within their own borders, short of truly egregious crimes.

feargale

walshb wrote: »

No, that is not how it happened. They were charged with stopping/preventing the referendum from going ahead, and in doing so that is when the issue escalated.

Where you there from the start? Or are you going on social media accounts and reports? You need to hear both sides.

People acting all incredulous that riot police had to use force uphold law and order. There was bound to be altercations, as there were people who disagreed with the police enforcing the law, hence the scuffles that resulted in trouble. It's standard human behavior

So, what exactly should they have done?

The Spanish Constitution was accepted by the people of Spain, including Catalonia, at a time when the peoples of Spain were focused on putting Franco's thuggery ( and his thugs ) behind them at any price. Time has moved on.
I don't think it is appropriate for outsiders to be for or against Catalan independence. It behoves us all to respect Catalonia's right to self-determination. Even if you see the Constitution as overriding everything it does not exclude the possibility of independence for Catalonia or any other Spanish community. It is abominable that Madrid should attempt to bully the Catalan administration into refraining from testing the opinion of the people. Even if there were illegality involved, a civilsed government would let things take their course and have recourse to the law afterwards.
The days of Metternich's superstate policies at all costs and the days of police thuggery in the face of peaceful activity have no place in the 21st century.
You suggest that the media is not giving us the full picture. Rubbish! You mean Madrid is silenced? Give us the other side, then. Come off it. Most European "statesmen", at least those we have heard from, are, in their cowardice, utterly unsympathetic to the right of the Catalans to self determination, just as that clown Boris Johnson would deny the Kurds the same right. What kind of idiots elevate the status quo to the level of a divine right? Even Varadkar has got in on the act. It is disgraceful that 21st century European heads of government show as little respect for the right of small nations to decide their own destiny as their predecessors did in the 19th century.
We have had another fool here who has tried to discredit those upholding self-determination on the grounds that they are "republicans", meaning, I presume, Sinn Fein supporters or the like. That ad hominem argument carries no weight. Must I support Franco's fascism because Stalin opposed it? Must I support Stalin because Franco and his thugs opposed him?
Catalonia is morally entitled to choose its destiny. How many separatists would you say Madrid has converted to its way of thinking in the last few days? Stupid pr**ks! This will not go away. There can be no peace in the world while the right of people to freely choose their destiny is denied. It has ever been so, from Jerusalem in 70 AD to Slovenia in 1991. Of those countries that have achieved their independence, how many have chosen to return to their previous status?

Water John

Not sure that Madrid will ask Barcelona to come to a table.

Other than that I think your summary is accurate, Samaris.

Cookie_Monster

recedite wrote: »

Turnout was 42% with 90% in favour.
There will be a question mark now as to a whether a 42% turnout is enough to give Puigdemont a proper mandate?

I think in this case it can be inferred that turnout versus actual vote is going to be markedly different due to the police interference. I don't suppose there is much hope in getting an approximation of what unmolested turnout would have been?

feargale

EagererBeaver wrote: »

Well no, for one I don't have a vote, but if I did I would likely vote No. I live in Barcelona and I think declaring independence would be catastrophic for the Catalan economy and that, like Brexit, it would be those with least that suffer the most. Catalan economic success has been built over the last five or six decades on the back immigration - first from other parts of Spain, especially Andalucia and more recently from Africa, the Middle East and Eastern Europe. These people would be the ones to suffer, not the elite like Pujol and Mas and Puigdemont.
They would be out of the EU from Day One and, again like Brexit, the independence leaders have completely whiffed on the question of EU membership. Catalunya trades far, far more with the rest of Spain than it does externally. It would be a disaster.
The constitution you refer to so derisively yet clearly know nothing about was approved at the time by an overwhelming majority of the Catalan people.
So there you go - some rationale for my position. Now you go ahead and sit behind your laptop far far away pontificating about things you don't understand and dismissing the opinion or view of anyone you don't agree with because you've made your mind up.

So, you are opposed to Catalan independence. So are many Catalans. But it seems that because you are opposed to it the people should not be consulted on the issue. You believe that a majority oppose independence, therefore, based on your belief a proper poll should not be conducted to ascertain the will of the people, even though your belief is based on fallible opinion polls.
The issue here is not whether Catalonia should be independent but whether it has a right to choose. Can you point to anyone here or in Catalonia who would deny opponents of independence the right to vote?

Much is being made of a low turnout. It's a bit rich of those who forcibly caused a low turnout to complain about it. It's laughable to suggest that we should make assumptions about the preference of non-voters and allow those imagined preferences to trump the verdict of voters. If only 100 people turn out to vote in a general election in Wicklow they still elect five TDs. Non-voters are not consulted.

EagererBeaver wrote: »

"Now you go ahead and sit behind your laptop far far away pontificating about things you don't understand and dismissing the opinion or view of anyone you don't agree with because you've made your mind up"

Dismissing the opinion of anyone you don't agree with because you've made your mind up? Isn't that exactly what you are doing? You say you have no vote on the issue. Therefore as a blow in you have no greater right to comment. I would attach as much value to the opinion of your disinterested adversary behind his laptop far away as I would to the opinion of a person who, I suspect, has a vested interest in opposing independence and is prepared to elevate his personal preference over and above the Catalan people's right to choose. Not fair, and full of BS logic.

JupiterKid

If Madrid decides to go heavy handed and crush Catalonian self-determination, it will backfire very badly. The consequences could make the ETA campaign look like nothing in comparison.

If Spain refuses the rights of Catalonians to self-determination, I can only see the result being bloody and brutal. It may even lead to Spain being forcibly ejected from the EU.

Calina

Catalonia is already highly autonomous. If by self-determination you do not mean independence, please spell out what you do mean.

An Ciarraioch

The general strike is underway, the Twitter hashtag VagaGeneral gives an idea of the empty streets:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/VagaGeneral30/live?src=hashtag_click

josip

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The general strike is underway, the Twitter hashtag VagaGeneral gives an idea of the empty streets:

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/VagaGeneral30/live?src=hashtag_click

This is something I don't understand. What is the strike about and is there any benefit?
Will it not affect the Catalan economy more than the national economy?
If the results of the referendum are considered decisive, why aren't they switching from protest mode to independence mode?

Samaris

josip wrote: »

This is something I don't understand. What is the strike about and is there any benefit?
Will it not affect the Catalan economy more than the national economy?
If the results of the referendum are considered decisive, why aren't they switching from protest mode to independence mode?

Anger, probably. The majority of the Catalonian people don't -seem- to want actual independance, although they do want the right to make their opinion known at the polls. Rajoy isn't liked that much, not least as he's always held rather repressive attitudes to the very idea that parts of the country may consider themselves first their region and then their nation. The oppressive force that the government came down with has naturally stirred up ill-feeling and this is probably the clearest way to show it.

It will mostly affect the region, true, but Catalonia is pretty wealthy. The rest of Spain will likely feel the impact of massive strikes in their economic powerhouse.

I suspect most Catalonians probably don't feel the referendum result -was- decisive, especially those that didn't vote because either it was illegal, it wouldn't count or there were riot police hitting people. Hardliners got out, as did people who were determined and likely pretty aggravated by it all once they did actually get into a polling booth and more likely to vote in a protest.

The whole situation is a mess.

Elmer Blooker

I can't remember Catalans taking to the streets when Madrid bailed them out five years ago. The general consensus is that Spain cannot survive without wealthy Catalonia but Catalans should sit back and forget Greek Syriza type populism for a moment and think of the reality of independence which would probably be empty ATM for starters!
Like I said I'm beginning to see something "Syrizaish" about the populist Catalan separatist leaders who have a duty to tell their people about the realities of life outside the EU and eurozone and being cut off from the economy of Spain on which they are dependent. They are not doing that.
I say give them independence if thats what they want but be willing to accept the consequences such as companies packing up and moving to EU Spain.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194870/Catalonia-Spains-biggest-region-asks-4bn-bailout-Madrid-bank-customers-withdraw-money-accounts.html

Floki

josip wrote: »

This is something I don't understand. What is the strike about and is there any benefit?
Will it not affect the Catalan economy more than the national economy?
If the results of the referendum are considered decisive, why aren't they switching from protest mode to independence mode?

You would think that should be the next logical move now if independence is their ultimate aim.

I suppose it's difficult to switch to that mode from the oppressed how are we mode.

Edit: Sure didn't our own boyos declare independence when they took over the GPO.