Catalan independence referendum, 2017

An Ciarraioch

Interesting Irish Times article on how the Cabinet has reacted to the issue:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-cabinet-clashes-over-catalonia-at-heated-meeting-1.3243312?mode=amp

VinLieger

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Interesting Irish Times article on how the Cabinet has reacted to the issue:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/irish-cabinet-clashes-over-catalonia-at-heated-meeting-1.3243312?mode=amp

Not surprising its the independents who have no concept of the big picture. Its likely the same independents who would reply yes if asked do they think the EU has too much control over their members would also be the first ones to call for the EU to directly intervene in an internal matter of one of its members.

A Dub in Glasgo

VinLieger wrote: »

Not surprising its the independents who have no concept of the big picture. Its likely the same independents who would reply yes if asked do they think the EU has too much control over their members would also be the first ones to call for the EU to directly intervene in an internal matter of one of its members.

Isn't FG part of the same EU political group as the PP and Rajoy? No great surprise then the stance of FG

VinLieger

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Isn't FG part of the same EU political group as the PP and Rajoy? No great surprise then the stance of FG

What about all the other EU leaders who haven't condemned Rajoy then are they part of the same block or is there maybe, just maybe a bigger picture to be aware of?

Btw i think the police behaved despicably but its an internal Spanish matter and the EU should only get involved when it becomes a question on if Catalonia can rejoin if they manage to leave

CruelCoin

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I wish countries could solve their problems without the need for separation. Peace would be the most likely outcome if efforts and political solidarity and changes in society occurred.

Culture aside, one of the biggest bugbears is that the Catalans are net contributers to the rest of Spain.

This was also one of the main drivers behind Brexit.

Letting them keep their own money would certainly help.

VinLieger

CruelCoin wrote: »

Culture aside, one of the biggest bugbears is that the Catalans are net contributers to the rest of Spain.

This was also one of the main drivers behind Brexit.

Letting them keep their own money would certainly help.

By the same argument Dublin is a net contributor to the rest of Ireland should Dublin be able to keep all of its money?

CruelCoin

VinLieger wrote: »

By the same argument Dublin is a net contributor to the rest of Ireland should Dublin be able to keep all of its money?

Yes. Reap what you sow.

Mind you we are talking apples and oranges here.
Dublin is a singular city, and catalonia a region with many cities.
Would make more sense if you widened your question to Leinster.

Answer would still be yes though.

Besides. No point sending money to Leitrim, because the place doesn't ****ing exist.

A Dub in Glasgo

VinLieger wrote: »

By the same argument Dublin is a net contributor to the rest of Ireland should Dublin be able to keep all of its money?

Dublin is the capital city

Your analogy would be better with Cork being the net contributer

VinLieger

CruelCoin wrote: »

Yes.

Reap what you sow.

So lets take this all the way back because im curious.

What about wealthier suburbs of Dublin that probably pay more taxes than others should they get to keep their money? What about the wealthiest members of those suburbs should they get to keep their money and just not pay taxes? Where is the line you draw? Are you ultimately just in favour of people paying zero taxes full stop?

CruelCoin

VinLieger wrote: »

So lets take this all the way back because im curious.

What about wealthier suburbs of Dublin that probably pay more taxes than others should they get to keep their money? What about the wealthiest members of those suburbs should they get to keep their money and just not pay taxes? Where is the line you draw?

You could boil it all the way down to your neighbour if you liked....
Bit superfluous though. I'm suggesting a block of 7.5million people keep their cash.
Not sure where suburbs comes into it, when i'm talking regions.

VinLieger wrote: »

Are you ultimately just in favour of people paying zero taxes full stop?

No.

Water John

Whilst the public stance of other EU countries and the EU, is that it's an internal Spanish matter, I wouldn't doubt that Spanish Ministers and embassies have been left know that privately, they are unhappy.

VinLieger

CruelCoin wrote: »

You could boil it all the way down to your neighbour if you liked....
Bit superfluous though. I'm suggesting a block of 7.5million people keep their cash.
Not sure where suburbs comes into it, when i'm talking regions.

Im wondering where we drawn the line of people being able to keep their cash, why do you believe its only at regional level this is okay?

This all boils down to tribalism if the argument is they should get to keep their money and it not go to someone else and i'm simply wondering where we go okay that's enough? Is it tribalism of a city? A local authority? A suburb of that LA? a neighborhood of that suburb? A single family house in that neighborhood? Because they are all just smaller and smaller tribes, but tribes nonetheless.

If your saying its okay for a region to do it why not all of the above?

Kubernetes

VinLieger wrote: »

Im wondering where we drawn the line of people being able to keep their cash, why do you believe its only at regional level this is okay?

This all boils down to tribalism if the argument is they should get to keep their money and it not go to someone else and i'm simply wondering where we go okay that's enough? Is it tribalism of a city? A local authority? A suburb of that LA? a neighborhood of that suburb? A single family house in that neighborhood? Because they are all just smaller and smaller tribes, but tribes nonetheless.

If your saying its okay for a region to do it why not all of the above?

The whole "its our money" argument is very similiar to what one hears from the Lega Nord and the Veneto independence movement in Northern Italy.

josip

CruelCoin wrote: »

Culture aside, one of the biggest bugbears is that the Catalans are net contributers to the rest of Spain.

This was also one of the main drivers behind Brexit.

Letting them keep their own money would certainly help.

Yes, but according to the BBC they are also carrying a lot of debt, €52bn to the Spanish state.

CruelCoin

VinLieger wrote: »

s, but tribes nonetheless.

If your saying its okay for a region to do it why not all of the above?

I'll flip the question back at you and ask why monies should be diverted away from those who generate it?

CruelCoin

josip wrote: »

Yes, but according to the BBC they are also carrying a lot of debt, €52bn to the Spanish state.

Unemployment is 15% in Spain atm.

I'd imagine, every region has debt obligations to the central government.

oscarBravo

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'll flip the question back at you and ask why monies should be diverted away from those who generate it?

I'm afraid you're going to have to make a case for your perspective on this rather than ask others to defend theirs.

Wealth redistribution is a thing. Outside of diehard libertarians, everyone accepts that wealthier people get taxed and the taxes are used to benefit the less well off. If you're going to argue that that's fine on an individual level but not on a national level - when it's something that every country does - the onus really is on you to explain why.

CruelCoin

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you're going to argue that that's fine on an individual level but not on a national level - when it's something that every country does - the onus really is on you to explain why.

I'm not sure I can beyond what i've tried to do already.

I'm not really willing to go down the reductionist rabbit hole of "whatabout the region, city, suburb, street, house"

Catalans being the creator of more wealth than they enjoy, rightly in my mind can be aggrieved over this. I'm not going to try debate the merits of Spanish wealth distribution.

VinLieger

CruelCoin wrote: »

I'm not sure I can beyond what i've tried to do already.

I'm not really willing to go down the reductionist rabbit hole of "whatabout the region, city, suburb, street, house"

Catalans being the creator of more wealth than they enjoy, rightly in my mind can be aggrieved over this. I'm not going to try debate the merits of Spanish wealth distribution.

Reductionist or not its a valid question about the logic you are applying to this situation. Barcelona being the the largest city of Catalonia are similarly the creator of more wealth than they enjoy vs the rest of Catalonia so why is it okay for the region of Catalonia to decide they can say we want to keep our money from the rest of Spain but if Barcelona decided they wanted to keep all their money from the rest of Catalonia it wouldn't be okay?

What if we expanded? Do you agree with the EU being far wealthier than many African countries sending money to them?

I dont agree you have tried to answer the question but if you aren't able to answer the question you can just say that.

Mancomb Seepgood

It may be possible that any agreement on independence would involve Catalonia paying remittances to Spain over an interim period.A representative of the CUP (the left-wing pro-independence party) seems to indicate this:

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/10/catalonia-referendum-spain-catalan-independence

I have no idea whether Catalonia should become independent or not but I don't see that the argument for independence is a purely economic one.I'd agree that wealthier areas in a country/state/city will always end up subsidising poorer areas to some extent-which is right and proper.

CruelCoin

VinLieger wrote: »

Reductionist or not its a valid question about the logic you are applying to this situation. Barcelona being the the largest city of Catalonia are similarly the creator of more wealth than they enjoy vs the rest of Catalonia so why is it okay for the region of Catalonia to decide they can say we want to keep our money from the rest of Spain but if Barcelona decided they wanted to keep all their money from the rest of Catalonia it wouldn't be okay?

What if we expanded? Do you agree with the EU being far wealthier than many African countries sending money to them?

I dont agree you have tried to answer the question but if you aren't able to answer the question you can just say that.

I never said anything about Barcelona. You said that. I said Catalonia should keep Catalan money, and that's it. What they do beyond that is for the Catalan government to decide. That's the best you're going to get out of me.

Likewise in the Brexit case, it is sufficient for people to say that the UK should keep UK revenues. It shouldn't be up to people to clarify where in the UK that should go. In an EU VS UK context, bringing Birmingham into it is just disingenuous. That's is just falsely trying to disqualify an argument that really pretty simple.

We've spent a decade on Turkey, and that's gone nowhere.
Algeria et al is a lifetime away at that pace.

oscarBravo

CruelCoin wrote: »

I never said anything about Barcelona. You said that. I said Catalonia should keep Catalan money, and that's it. What they do beyond that is for the Catalan government to decide. That's the best you're going to get out of me.

That's fine, as long as you understand that you've asserted that something should be the case, and refused to explain why, which makes it reasonable to infer that you don't have a rational basis for it.

You've claimed that regions should keep all the wealth they generate. You haven't explained what it is about a region that makes that the case. You seem to have extended it to countries, so we can only assume that you're vehemently opposed to EU structural funds.

But you don't want to get into a conversation about whether or not cities or suburbs should keep the wealth they generate. Because reasons.

I'm sorry, but the logical conclusion is that you think regions should keep the wealth they generate because that belief ties in with how you feel about the Catalonia situation. Which is fine, once you understand that you're committing the logical fallacy of begging the question.

VinLieger

CruelCoin wrote: »

I never said anything about Barcelona. You said that. I said Catalonia should keep Catalan money, and that's it. What they do beyond that is for the Catalan government to decide. That's the best you're going to get out of me.

Likewise in the Brexit case, it is sufficient for people to say that the UK should keep UK revenues. It shouldn't be up to people to clarify where in the UK that should go. In an EU VS UK context, bringing Birmingham into it is just disingenuous. That's is just falsely trying to disqualify an argument that really pretty simple.

We've spent a decade on Turkey, and that's gone nowhere.
Algeria et al is a lifetime away at that pace.

You are getting caught up in the specifics of the analogy and not addressing the question i raised using the analogy. Im not sure if its intentional or not to avoid simply answering the question but as OscarBravo stated you don't seem to have any rational basis for why Catalonia should be able to keep their money but other smaller or larger groups of people should not.

Ill try one last time, what makes Catalonia as a region special?

CruelCoin

VinLieger wrote: »

You are getting caught up in the specifics of the analogy and not addressing the question i raised using the analogy. Im not sure if its intentional or not to avoid simply answering the question but as OscarBravo stated you don't seem to have any rational basis for why Catalonia should be able to keep their money but other smaller or larger groups of people should not.

Ill try one last time, what makes Catalonia as a region special?

My opinions are in my last 5 posts, answered as best i can.

I'm not playing your linguistic gymnastics game anymore.

Enjoy.

VinLieger

CruelCoin wrote: »

My opinions are in my last 5 posts, answered as best i can.

I'm not playing your linguistic gymnastics game anymore.

Enjoy.

Okay

CruelCoin wrote: »

It's a bit like answering the "why child". It only leads to another question, and i'm lazy.

It really doesn't lead to another question, its a simple answer if you have put thought into why you have an opinion on Catalonia having control of their money.

CruelCoin wrote: »

Maybe. Democratic freedoms is an emotive topic for me.

In that case i believe your argument for them having control of their money is a deflection and you don't really care about that specifically and are really just invested in the argument of them having democratic freedoms which is completely fair and id agree with it in so much they should definitely have the right to a legal referendum whose result is acknowledged and respected by the Spanish government.

An Ciarraioch

It seems Monday has been set for independence, so the only question is whether Rajoy will act before then, or whether politically, he needs the UDI to happen first:

http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/la-declaracion-unilateral-de-independencia-de-cataluna-se-pondria-en-marcha-el-proximo-lunes_2017100459d4ad7f0cf210d9a8ba1576.html

VinLieger

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

It seems Monday has been set for independence, so the only question is whether Rajoy will act before then, or whether politically, he needs the UDI to happen first:

http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/la-declaracion-unilateral-de-independencia-de-cataluna-se-pondria-en-marcha-el-proximo-lunes_2017100459d4ad7f0cf210d9a8ba1576.html

By declaring the day they will declare independence have they not already declared independence?

An Ciarraioch

VinLieger wrote: »

By declaring the day they will declare independence have they not already declared independence?

Presumably, it needs to go through the Generalitat to be formally enacted into law.

A Dub in Glasgo

VinLieger wrote: »

By declaring the day they will declare independence have they not already declared independence?

Er, No

An Ciarraioch

Puigdemont's speech basically said "We're open to offers until Monday, after that, we're off".