Catalan independence referendum, 2017

An Ciarraioch · 10-10-2017 7:33pm

So, the UDI is made, but suspended to allow talks with both Madrid and international mediators. PM's office has already rejected the olive branch, so the first point is scored by Puigdemont.

Brendan Bendar · 10-10-2017 7:41pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

So, the UDI is made, but suspended to allow talks with both Madrid and international mediators. PM's office has already rejected the olive branch, so the first point is scored by Puigdemont.

First mistake, in my opinion.

An Ciarraioch · 10-10-2017 7:53pm

If he had left it activated, presumably article 155 would be triggered - rather harder for Rajoy to take that step now.

FrancieBrady · 10-10-2017 8:08pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

So, the UDI is made, but suspended to allow talks with both Madrid and international mediators. PM's office has already rejected the olive branch, so the first point is scored by Puigdemont.

Smart move. Once again they come across as reasonable.

VinLieger · 10-10-2017 8:50pm

Did anyone see the eejits laughing when he was talking about the banks and other big name companies moving their headquarters and tax payments to other cities and how they donlt need them? Smacks of deja vu when you hear the champagne socialists here cluelessly claiming we don't need all the MNC's here and their direct/indirect jobs for 20% of the population.

recedite · 10-10-2017 9:09pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

So, the UDI is made, but suspended..

Its not quite clear whether the UDI was made and then suspended, or whether it was postponed. The word "suspended" is being used in English, but maybe something has been lost in translation?
It seems more like a postponement to me (ie no UDI).

Catalonia's President has said that the region has won the right to statehood but suspended a declaration of independence from Spain.
Instead, Carles Puigdemont says that such a declaration would wait “a few weeks” so talks could first take place with the Spanish government.

http://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-declaration-3639597-Oct2017/

recedite · 10-10-2017 9:12pm

Meanwhile a frigate appeared today in the foggy dew of Barcelona harbour.
Espana's Huns with their long range guns....

FrancieBrady · 10-10-2017 9:21pm

recedite wrote: »

Meanwhile a frigate appeared today in the foggy dew of Barcelona harbour.
Espana's Huns with their long range guns....

Do they have a GPO?

recedite · 10-10-2017 9:29pm

I couldn't imagine them ever firing on the city, but even so, it is the politics of intimidation in action.

FrancieBrady · 10-10-2017 9:42pm

recedite wrote: »

I couldn't imagine them ever firing on the city, but even so, it is the politics of intimidation in action.

Madrid seems to be talking themselves into a cup de sac here. If the Catalans don't back down the dogs of war will be unleashed, judging from the talk.

An Ciarraioch · 10-10-2017 9:50pm

recedite wrote: »

Its not quite clear whether the UDI was made and then suspended, or whether it was postponed. The word "suspended" is being used in English, but maybe something has been lost in translation?
It seems more like a postponement to me (ie no UDI).

http://www.thejournal.ie/catalan-declaration-3639597-Oct2017/

This suggests the UDI was made:

https://mobile.twitter.com/catalangov/status/917806871800635393

Also the pro-independence MPs signed a Declaration once the session ended.

An Ciarraioch · 10-10-2017 9:52pm

Meanwhile, Rajoy and Sanchez are reportedly holding talks tonight, while the Spanish Cabinet are meeting tomorrow morning.

feargale · 11-10-2017 12:20am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Scotland is and has been actually a country. If anything catalonia is more akin to Northern Ireland, a region.

If you google Catalonia (History) in Wikipedia, (too long to paste here,) you will see that this is not as cut and dried as you are suggesting. I would refer you in particular to the years 1117, 1640 and 1931. But once we begin to talk of countries, nations etc. we are in the realm of subjectivity. The only rightful arbiters in that arena are the people themselves.

marienbad · 11-10-2017 1:14am

feargale wrote: »

. The only rightful arbiters in that arena are the people themselves.

But this is just a cliché . the real question is which people and by what mechanism .

An Ciarraioch · 11-10-2017 11:54am

Rajoy responds by threatening to invoke Article 155:

https://www.thespainreport.com/articles/1205-171011120040-spanish-government-begins-process-to-suspend-home-rule-in-catalonia-after-puigdemont-confusion

An Ciarraioch · 11-10-2017 12:35pm

WhatsApp networks of ANC and Omnium (pro-independence civic groups) have been blocked by the Guardia Civil:

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/10/actualidad/1507631073_313664.html?id_externo_rsoc=TW_CM

feargale · 11-10-2017 3:03pm

feargale wrote: »

The only rightful arbiters in that arena are the people themselves.

marienbad wrote: »

But this is just a cliché .

I wish it were a cliché. Then more people might be accepting of it.

marienbad wrote: »

the real question is which people and by what mechanism .

Both answers are to be found in Scotland or Quebec. Madrid seems to have equal difficulty in finding answers to those questions. Given Madrid's relatively recent introduction to democracy, perhaps it should look north for education.

An Ciarraioch · 11-10-2017 3:53pm

Rajoy speech to Parliament just over - key point to note was that he again stated that Spain was an indivisible nation, that all Spaniards would require a say on Catalan independence, and that the nationalists needed to return to path outlined in Spanish Constitution. Spoke of reform, but given the previous points, one presumes that federalisation is the idea.

marienbad · 11-10-2017 4:04pm

feargale wrote: »

I wish it were a cliché. Then more people might be accepting of it.

Both answers are to be found in Scotland or Quebec. Madrid seems to have equal difficulty in finding answers to those questions. Given Madrid's relatively recent introduction to democracy, perhaps it should look north for education.

why not look to find the answers in the Spanish Constitution and Courts at least initially ?

An Ciarraioch · 11-10-2017 4:58pm

marienbad wrote: »

why not look to find the answers in the Spanish Constitution and Courts at least initially ?

Highly unlikely that castellaños would ever vote for Catalan independence (just as England effectively vetoed Irish Home Rule until the 1910 Parliament Act), and the two-thirds requirement in the Cortes gives the PP a permanent blocking vote on the issue.

marienbad · 11-10-2017 5:44pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Highly unlikely that castellaños would ever vote for Catalan independence (just as England effectively vetoed Irish Home Rule until the 1910 Parliament Act), and the two-thirds requirement in the Cortes gives the PP a permanent blocking vote on the issue.

So are you saying that any region anywhere can secede anytime ?

A Dub in Glasgo · 11-10-2017 5:50pm

The constitution is the problem as it enshrines Spain as a single entity and no nation within Spain can become independent without the approval, I assume, of the whole of Spain. That is akin to the UK saying that no nation within the UK can become independent unless the whole of the UK approve

recedite · 11-10-2017 5:51pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Rajoy responds by threatening to invoke Article 155:

https://www.thespainreport.com/articles/1205-171011120040-spanish-government-begins-process-to-suspend-home-rule-in-catalonia-after-puigdemont-confusion

Madrid is saying here that they need to know whether the Catalan govt. has declared independence or not.
Puigdemont is being deliberately vague on the point, which is preventing Rajoy from triggering the Article 155 process.

A Declaration of Independence should be done proudly and defiantly, with fine words worth remembering. Not sheepishly like this.

It looks to me like the Catalan govt. have lost their nerve. There is no point stalling for time if Madrid is not talking. And I don't see the European Commission cavalry riding to the rescue either.
Time will tick away now, and nothing new will happen, unless Puigdemont is making some kind of secret preparations. If he has definitely declared an independent republic, he could be vulnerable to being arrested. Maybe he is worried that a snatch squad could grab him and whisk him away onto the frigate.

An Ciarraioch · 11-10-2017 6:13pm

marienbad wrote: »

So are you saying that any region anywhere can secede anytime ?

If a region has a long-standing political tradition of constitutional nationalism, they should be entitled to hold a referendum on the issue - after all, if Quebec or Montenegro can agree votes, I fail to see why the same principle shouldn't be universal.

An Ciarraioch · 11-10-2017 6:16pm

recedite wrote: »

Madrid is saying here that they need to know whether the Catalan govt. has declared independence or not.
Puigdemont is being deliberately vague on the point, which is preventing Rajoy from triggering the Article 155 process.

A Declaration of Independence should be done proudly and defiantly, with fine words worth remembering. Not sheepishly like this.

It looks to me like the Catalan govt. have lost their nerve. There is no point stalling for time if Madrid is not talking. And I don't see the European Commission cavalry riding to the rescue either.
Time will tick away now, and nothing new will happen, unless Puigdemont is making some kind of secret preparations. If he has definitely declared an independent republic, he could be vulnerable to being arrested. Maybe he is worried that a snatch squad could grab him and whisk him away onto the frigate.

He has five days to respond now, if he really wants a Republic, given all the national parties have now ruled that out.

Brendan Bendar · 11-10-2017 6:16pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

If a region has a long-standing political tradition of constitutional nationalism, they should be entitled to hold a referendum on the issue - after all, if Quebec or Montenegro can agree votes, I fail to see why the same principle shouldn't be universal.

A full Spanish is what is required then.

recedite · 11-10-2017 6:41pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

He has five days to respond now, if he really wants a Republic, given all the national parties have now ruled that out.

Where are you getting the "5 days" deadline from?
From the previous link...

In his statement on Wednesday morning, Mr. Rajoy did not set a deadline for the reply.

marienbad · 11-10-2017 7:23pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

If a region has a long-standing political tradition of constitutional nationalism, they should be entitled to hold a referendum on the issue - after all, if Quebec or Montenegro can agree votes, I fail to see why the same principle shouldn't be universal.

What standing does such a formulation have ? That could be made to apply to virtually anywhere ?

Is there not a Constitutional process to resolve these issues ? Surely that should be exhausted first

Avatar MIA · 11-10-2017 7:28pm

Re the Constitutional Solution - The problem I see with this is if Catalonia votes for independence and the rest of Spain says no, then that's a rife breeding ground for a terrorist movement.

An Ciarraioch · 11-10-2017 7:44pm

recedite wrote: »

Where are you getting the "5 days" deadline from?
From the previous link...

The Spain Report say that he has until Monday to clarify whether the UDI is valid, and if so, until Thursday to go back on it. If there's no reply by then, the article will automatically take effect.

More detail here:

http://www.eldiario.es

Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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