Catalan independence referendum, 2017

Avatar MIA

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The democratic majority of people both in Catalonia and Spain want to remain part of Spain, this is the underlying issue which separatists continue to ignore.

Wow, I think we could finally solve the whole multi referendums that are due to befall our own fair country. Instead we can just ask Celia Late Troop to call them.

Or, they could let the people of Catalonia have a vote and put it to bed once and for all.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Wow, I think we could finally solve the whole multi referendums that are due to befall our own fair country. Instead we can just ask Tickers to call them.

Or, they could let the people of Catalonia have a vote and put it to bed once and for all.

Wow, the means to have a vote on Catalonian independence already exists within the Spanish constitution. The regional government chose to step outside of the constitution and hold an illegal referendum. Maybe we could ask the local government in Catalonia to call our referendums and do away with the rule of law which they have done in Catalonia.

FrancieBrady

I think we are way beyond the niceties and legalities at this stage tbh.

Things have taken on a momentum of their own.

recedite

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Wow, the means to have a vote on Catalonian independence already exists within the Spanish constitution.

So, you're saying that if Madrid had called the referendum it would have been legal, even though we know that Madrid is totally against any such referendum.
Its a bull$hit argument, and you know it.

An Ciarraioch

And just imagine the protests that would ensue if the result in Catalonia itself was for independence, but the rest of Spain voted against.

An Ciarraioch

As an aside, while Galicia voted almost 3:1 for autonomy in 1980, turnout was only 28%, so did a silent majority of Galicians desire direct rule from Madrid?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galician_autonomy_statute_referendum%2C_1980

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

So, you're saying that if Madrid had called the referendum it would have been legal, even though we know that Madrid is totally against any such referendum.
Its a bull$hit argument, and you know it.

What I'm saying is that 90% of the people of Catalonia voted in favour of the Spanish constitution in 1978. Within that constitution there is a means for a regional government to gain independence. The existing minority government in Catalonia decided to break their own regional rules and the rule of law within the Spanish constitution. That constitution is almost a carbon copy of other western European constitutions. Just because a minority of people in Catalonia decide they want to be independent, does not give them the right to arbitrarily declare a referendum and independence.

Please explain what part of this is a BS argument?

Catalonia's best chance for Independence is that people outside of Spain remain ignorant of the facts.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What I'm saying is that 90% of the people of Catalonia voted in favour of the Spanish constitution in 1978. Within that constitution there is a means for a regional government to gain independence. The existing minority government in Catalonia decided to break their own regional rules and the rule of law within the Spanish constitution. That constitution is almost a carbon copy of other western European constitutions. Just because a minority of people in Catalonia decide they want to be independent, does not give them the right to arbitrarily declare a referendum and independence.

Please explain what part of this is a BS argument?

Catalonia's best chance for Independence is that people outside of Spain remain ignorant of the facts.

The Catalan government was explicitly re-elected on a platform of negotiating a referendum (which the Podemos regional MPs also supported), so it was then up to the Spanish political system to respect that mandate. The same problem occurred in the Basque Country, where a referendum was blocked, despite overwhelming support in that parliament.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The Catalan government was explicitly re-elected on a platform of negotiating a referendum (which the Podemos regional MPs also supported), so it was then up to the Spanish political system to respect that mandate. The same problem occurred in the Basque Country, where a referendum was blocked, despite overwhelming support in that parliament.

Stop. In the last elections, off all the Catalans with the right to vote 35% opted for one pro-independence party or another. They don't have the majority within their own parliament which is why they broke their own parliamentary rules to call the referendum in the first place. How does this give them a mandate to for an independence referendum?

An Ciarraioch

The Catalan Parliament has fixed its session for Thursday - "Each group can present up to three resolutions for the session to vote on":

https://mobile.twitter.com/parlament_cat/status/922413489272082432

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Stop. In the last elections, off all the Catalans with the right to vote 35% opted for one pro-independence party or another. They don't have the majority within their own parliament which is why they broke their own parliamentary rules to call the referendum in the first place. How does this give them a mandate to for an independence referendum?

I notice this trend to include non-voters in the same pot as the writer wants

How did the Catalan Parliament manage to vote through the declaration to start independence process if the pro-independence parties did not have a majoity?

v638sg7k1a92bx

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I notice this trend to include non-voters in the same pot as the writer wants

How did the Catalan Parliament manage to vote through the declaration to start independence process if the pro-independence parties did not have a majoity?

Exactly, by breaking their own parliamentary rules. They are a minority government. This is the crux of the whole issue which never gets reported. The means to achieve independence already exists within the Spanish constitution but the Catalan government chose to step outside of these rules and call phoney elections because they don't have the democratic majority within their own parliament, within Catalonia or within Spain.

An Ciarraioch

They have 72 out of 135 seats, to be precise.

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Exactly, by breaking their own parliamentary rules. They are a minority government. This is the crux of the whole issue which never gets reported. The means to achieve independence already exists within the Spanish constitution but the Catalan government chose to step outside of these rules and call phoney elections because they don't have the democratic majority within their own parliament, within Catalonia or within Spain.

Sorry, I do not understand... The Catalan Parliament voted on the 'Declaration to start the independence process' 72 to 63. Are you saying that some of those 72 thought they were going to the Madrid government and ask for independence instead of having a referendum in Catalonia?

recedite

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Exactly, by breaking their own parliamentary rules. They are a minority government. This is the crux of the whole issue which never gets reported.

What parliamentary rule did they break?
Puigdemont's party does not have an overall majority, but combined with other pro-independence parties there is a clear parliamentary majority in favour of independence. And a majority of voters in the referendum also in favour. So that's a majority in terms of both direct democracy and representative democracy.

v638sg7k1a92bx

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Sorry, I do not understand... The Catalan Parliament voted on the 'Declaration to start the independence process' 72 to 63. Are you saying that some of those 72 thought they were going to the Madrid government and ask for independence instead of having a referendum in Catalonia?

What I'm saying is that according to the Catalan statutes a two-thirds majority is required in the Catalonian Parliament.

To put this in perspective, you need two-thirds of the Catalan Parliament to elect directors of the public television station but a law to enable the referendum and independence was passed with a simple majority!

Have yet to hear a coherent reason for Catalonian independence that doesn't have factual inaccuracies.

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What I'm saying is that according to the Catalan statutes a two-thirds majority is required in the Catalonian Parliament.

To put this in perspective, you need two-thirds of the Catalan Parliament to elect directors of the public television station but a law to enable the referendum and independence was passed with a simple majority!

Have yet to hear a coherent reason for Catalonian independence that doesn't have factual inaccuracies.

Can you provide a source for the two thirds rule?

What democracy in the world needs bills and laws to be passed by two thirds of the parliament?

johnp001

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Can you provide a source for the two thirds rule?

What democracy in the world needs bills and laws to be passed by two thirds of the parliament?

The US House of Representatives and Senate currently have requirements for a supermajority (usually 2/3rds but in some instances 3/5ths) for passing particular types of legislation.

v638sg7k1a92bx

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Can you provide a source for the two thirds rule?

What democracy in the world needs bills and laws to be passed by two thirds of the parliament?

johnp001 wrote: »

The US House of Representatives and Senate currently have requirements for a supermajority (usually 2/3rds but in some instances 3/5ths) for passing particular types of legislation.

Which democracy? Well that would be the Catalan government who ironically are the ones screaming that their democratic rights are being trampled while they break the rules of their own democratically elected Parliament.

This is what I mean. The whole argument for independence is based on emotions over facts.

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Which democracy? Well that would be the Catalan government who ironically are the ones screaming that their democratic rights are being trampled while they break the rules of their own democratically elected Parliament.
.

Can you give us the source of your two thirds rule that the Catalan Parliament broke?

johnp001

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Can you give us the source of your two thirds rule that the Catalan Parliament broke?

I don't have the language skills to find the original source but it is referenced in the second paragraph here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017

v638sg7k1a92bx

johnp001 wrote: »

I don't have the language skills to find the original source but it is referenced in the second paragraph here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017

@johnp001 came onto this thread as was like

recedite

The 2006 statute of autonomy is available in English language here.
The relevant bit is...

Article 223 1b
Approval of the reform requires the favourable vote of two-thirds of the members of Parliament, approval by the Cortes Generales by means of an organic law and, finally, approval in a referendum by the electorate

Which means the sovereign status of Catalonia can't be changed unless those three things occur simultaneously; a referendum win, a two thirds majority in the parliament, and approval from Madrid.

They only have the first. They lack the second. And the third will never be granted.
Make of that what you will.
IMO a Declaration of Independence is an act of defiance against the former power, and therefore the whole point of it is that the new power does not consider itself bound by the old rules.
Did the USA ever get approval from London for its independence?

History teaches us that the former power will sometimes agree legally to grant independence, as the UK did with Ireland, but only after events on the ground have made their agreement irrelevant anyway. It ties up the legal loose ends for the former power, and makes them feel good, that's all.
Its a bit like saying "I quit" after you have been fired.

Therefore if you want independence, these kind of legal requirements are not something you wait around for, its something you have to bypass.

What really counts is the support of the people. A democratic mandate, as provided by a majority in parliament and a majority in a referendum.

An Ciarraioch

Other autonomous communities can't say they weren't warned - Navarre appears to be next in the firing line:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171023/432304629443/partido-popular-amenaza-articulo-155-navarra-euskadi-castilla-la-mancha.html

An Ciarraioch

Even though the suggested solution is new elections, the latest poll shows that the result would be exactly the same - and what's more, Junqueras would be more hard-line than Puigdemont as leader:

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171022/encuesta-elecciones-cataluna-6371299

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

The 2006 statute of autonomy is available in English language here.
The relevant bit is...
Which means the sovereign status of Catalonia can't be changed unless those three things occur simultaneously; a referendum win, a two thirds majority in the parliament, and approval from Madrid.

They only have the first. They lack the second. And the third will never be granted.
Make of that what you will.

They have none of these three. The referendum was the legal equivalent of a twitter poll. Why would anyone other than the separatists participate in an election that they considered to be illegal in the first place?

recedite wrote: »

IMO a Declaration of Independence is an act of defiance against the former power, and therefore the whole point of it is that the new power does not consider itself bound by the old rules.
Did the USA ever get approval from London for its independence?

History teaches us that the former power will sometimes agree legally to grant independence, as the UK did with Ireland, but only after events on the ground have made their agreement irrelevant anyway. It ties up the legal loose ends for the former power, and makes them feel good, that's all.

Both Ireland and the U.S. were colonies. International law recognises a right to self determination to colonised people only. This doesn't apply to Catalonia.

recedite wrote: »

What really counts is the support of the people. A democratic mandate, as provided by a majority in parliament and a majority in a referendum.

Which the Catalonian government don't have. Not in their own parliament, in Catalonia itself or in Spain.

josip

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

...
Both Ireland and the U.S. were colonies. International law recognises a right to self determination to colonised people only...

Did the international law at the time recognise that?

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

They have none of these three. The referendum was the legal equivalent of a twitter poll. Why would anyone other than the separatists participate in an election that they considered to be illegal in the first place?




Both Ireland and the U.S. were colonies. International law recognises a right to self determination to colonised people only. This doesn't apply to Catalonia.



Which the Catalonian government don't have. Not in their own parliament, in Catalonia itself or in Spain.

Not sure still what the point is. We are beyond that. The Jack is out of the box.

What now? Everyone realises it may have been illegal and goes home?

v638sg7k1a92bx

josip wrote: »

Did the international law at the time recognise that?

Precedent?

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not sure still what the point is. We are beyond that. The Jack is out of the box.

What now? Everyone realises it may have been illegal and goes home?

What do you suggest. Just give them independence and go home?