Catalan independence referendum, 2017

josip

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Precedent?

Sorry I don't understand. Can you expand a little please?

v638sg7k1a92bx

josip wrote: »

Sorry I don't understand. Can you expand a little please?

Sorry do you come on here just to ask questions?

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What do you suggest. Just give them independence and go home?

Well, they are going to need something. And I think history would show that trying to put this down with legal or violent force is only going to strengthen the resolve.
As I say we are long past trying to put the jack back in the box. Talk about legalities is moot.

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, they are going to need something. And I think history would show that trying to put this down with legal or violent force is only going to strengthen the resolve.
As I say we are long past trying to put the jack back in the box. Talk about legalities is moot.

You're forgetting that the majority of people in Catalonia don't want independence.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You're forgetting that the majority of people in Catalonia don't want independence.

I am not 'forgetting' anything.

I said we are long beyond arguments about legalities. If Spain are so convinced about that, why not let them run a proper debate and referendum?

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You're forgetting that the majority of people in Catalonia don't want independence.

This is head in the sand stuff. If Spain was so sure that the majority don't want independence, they could have nipped this without resorting to violence and bully boy tactics... let them have a referendum afterall there is nothing to worry about, is there?

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am not 'forgetting' anything.

I said we are long beyond arguments about legalities. If Spain are so convinced about that, why not let them run a proper debate and referendum?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

This is head in the sand stuff. If Spain was so sure that the majority don't want independence, they could have nipped this without resorting to violence and bully boy tactics... let them have a referendum afterall there is nothing to worry about, is there?

Will Spain just do away with the constitution then? As I said, the means to hold a referendum already exists within the rule of law.

josip

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Sorry do you come on here just to ask questions?

No, I don't know what you meant by the word 'Precedent?' on it's own.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Precedent?

If you could put it in a sentence, it would be clearer for me.
Thanks.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Will Spain just do away with the constitution then? As I said, the means to hold a referendum already exists within the rule of law.

The constitution is being ignored. You can moralise all day long about that.
You still have to figure out, what next?

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Will Spain just do away with the constitution then? As I said, the means to hold a referendum already exists within the rule of law.

Which would be all well and good, if any of the national parties had the slightest interest in permitting one - certainly, the Socialists have been as adamant in their opposition as the PP, and Ciudadanos, having originated as a Catalan unionist party, are the most hardline of opponents.

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The constitution is being ignored. You can moralise all day long about that.
You still have to figure out, what next?

It's already been figured out. It's quite simple and what I've been explaining but people are choosing to ignore the facts and base their opinions on a romanticized idea of Catalonia fighting for it's independence.

Central government will now take control of the region, sack the Catalonian government that attempted the coup, implement the rule of law and call a referendum in the region within the next six months. The parties who want to run on a platform of independence can do so and put their case to the people of Catalonia. If they get a democratic majority they can then pass legislation to call a referendum on Catalonian independence and let all the people of Catalonia participate in a vote which meets minimum requirements as opposed to being left in the hands of volunteers who took the ballot boxes into their custody and slept overnight in the polling stations. If the people of the Catalonia pass that referendum, it will be then be put to all of the citizens of Spain to decide if they want to break up their country into two separate states.

Not that difficult, it's called democracy.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Which would be all well and good, if any of the national parties had the slightest interest in permitting one - certainly, the Socialists have been as adamant in their opposition as the PP, and Ciudadanos, having originated as a Catalan unionist party, are the most hardline of opponents.

That's how democracy works. The national parties represent the people who elected them and those people are not in favour of independence. What part of the Spanish constitution do you have difficulty with. Is the part that that doesn't let 2% of the population attempt a coup and break up the country of Spain that has been in existence for the last 500 years??? Can you provide to the source of your arguments?

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That's how democracy works. The national parties represent the people who elected them and those people are not in favour of independence. What part of the Spanish constitution do you have difficulty with. Is the part that that doesn't let 2% of the population attempt a coup and break up the country of Spain that has been in existence for the last 500 years??? Can you provide to the source of your arguments?

If you want a process to be conducted within the bounds of the Spanish constitution, then that requires both the Catalans and national parties to commit, unless you expect the former to quit politics altogether? The Socialists were in power from 2004 to 2012, during the beginning of the earliest phase of the present crisis.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

If you want a process to be conducted within the bounds of the Spanish constitution, then that requires both the Catalans and national parties to commit, unless you expect the former to quit politics altogether? The Socialists were in power from 2004 to 2012, during the beginning of the earliest phase of the present crisis.

I don't want anything I'm simply making statements of fact. What are you suggesting that the constitution is void and that Catalonia should just declare independence even though the majority of people living there want to remain part of Spain?

An Ciarraioch

No, I'm simply stating that the Catalan side isn't going to abandon independence as a goal, so if Spain wants to defuse the issue, it will be better placed to to do so by reforming the constitution and tackling it through a referendum, rather than hopefully wishing that the demand will simply go away.

recedite

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It's already been figured out. It's quite simple and what I've been explaining but people are choosing to ignore the facts and base their opinions on a romanticized idea of Catalonia fighting for it's independence.

Central government will now take control of the region, sack the Catalonian government that attempted the coup, implement the rule of law and call a referendum in the region within the next six months. The parties who want to run on a platform of independence can do so and put their case to the people of Catalonia. If they get a democratic majority they can then pass legislation to call a referendum on Catalonian independence and let all the people of Catalonia participate in a vote which meets minimum requirements as opposed to being left in the hands of volunteers who took the ballot boxes into their custody and slept overnight in the polling stations. If the people of the Catalonia pass that referendum, it will be then be put to all of the citizens of Spain to decide if they want to break up their country into two separate states.

Where are you getting the idea that Rajoy will himself hold a referendum for Catalans to vote in?
He has been opposed to any such referendum all along. That is the whole point. Your implication that the Oct 1st referendum was corrupt is also unfounded.

Rajoy's plan is to impose direct rule, shut down the independent media, then run an election campaign in which his own side gets all the air time.
He hopes the make-up of the new parliament will be more pro-Madrid, and will oppose any referendum.
But if the new regional parliament turns out to be just as rebellious as the current one, he may just continue with direct rule. Either way, he wins.

Funny thing is, since all this blew up, Rajoy hasn't dared to show his face once in Catalonia to inspire his people and be adored by them.
Whereas Puigdemont casually strolls among the crowds.

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

Where are you getting the idea that Rajoy will himself hold a referendum for Catalans to vote in?
He has been opposed to any such referendum all along. That is the whole point.

That should have said election as opposed to referendum.

recedite wrote: »

Your implication that the Oct 1st referendum was corrupt is also unfounded.

Nonsense. The referendum was illegal in the first instance so why would anyone other than the separatists participate in an election that wasn't legal to begin with.
There was no legal oversight, no census, no voter list and no ballot papers in some of the polling stations. The referendum was handed over to a group of pro independence volunteers who took custody of the ballot boxes, organised slumber parties in some of the polling stations the night before the election and could seen charging around with the ballots flying everywhere while people were stuffing votes into the boxes.

recedite wrote: »

Rajoy's plan is to impose direct rule, shut down the independent media, then run an election campaign in which his own side gets all the air time.
He hopes the make-up of the new parliament will be more pro-Madrid, and will oppose any referendum.
But if the new regional parliament turns out to be just as rebellious as the current one, he may just continue with direct rule. Either way, he wins.

Funny thing is, since all this blew up, Rajoy hasn't dared to show his face once in Catalonia to inspire his people and be adored by them.
Whereas Puigdemont casually strolls among the crowds.

1. Rajoy and PP are entitled to contest the election like every other party. If Puigdemont is so adored why doesn't he have an outright majority in his own Parliament and why did he need to break his own Parliamentary rules to hold a referendum? Again this is just basing your opinion on emotions rather than facts.

2. Who says TV3 is independent? Bearing in mind that the directors are appointed by the Catalonian Parliament via a 2/3 majority vote. Ironically, this is the same 2/3 majority that is required to hold a referendum on Spanish independence, but Puigdemont, who is so adored, decided to break that rule by calling a referendum and handing it over to a group of volunteers because he didn't have a majority in his own parliament. Although he is adored as he casually walks the streets which is more important to you than things like the rule of law, the constitution and Parliamentary protocol.

3. If Rajoy's plan was to impose direct rule why would he bother calling an election? Did he fill you in on his scheme or do you have a link to your source. I know those on here who advocate independence are keen on sources but struggle to post any themselves.

Can the next post advocating independence and Puigdemont have at least one factually based argument.

feargale

marienbad wrote: »

But even by your own criteria Catalonia doesn't measure up , more people speak Spanish on a daily basis than Catalan .

feargale wrote: »

And the percentage in Ireland who speak Irish on a daily basis?

marienbad wrote: »

I don't get the relevance ?

:rolleyes:

There seems to be a very selective mindset here among Rajoy's friends as to what and where is relevant. They say Scotland and Quebec have no relevance, yet one of them cited the Confederate States of America!


P.S. re

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Can the next post advocating independence and Puigdemont have at least one factually based argument.

This doesn't apply to me. I'm simply advocating self-determination.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

That should have said election as opposed to referendum.



Nonsense. The referendum was illegal in the first instance so why would anyone other than the separatists participate in an election that wasn't legal to begin with.
There was no legal oversight, no census, no voter list and no ballot papers in some of the polling stations. The referendum was handed over to a group of pro independence volunteers who took custody of the ballot boxes, organised slumber parties in some of the polling stations the night before the election and could seen charging around with the ballots flying everywhere while people were stuffing votes into the boxes.



1. Rajoy and PP are entitled to contest the election like every other party. If Puigdemont is so adored why doesn't he have an outright majority in his own Parliament and why did he need to break his own Parliamentary rules to hold a referendum? Again this is just basing your opinion on emotions rather than facts.

2. Who says TV3 is independent? Bearing in mind that the directors are appointed by the Catalonian Parliament via a 2/3 majority vote. Ironically, this is the same 2/3 majority that is required to hold a referendum on Spanish independence, but Puigdemont, who is so adored, decided to break that rule by calling a referendum and handing it over to a group of volunteers because he didn't have a majority in his own parliament. Although he is adored as he casually walks the streets which is more important to you than things like the rule of law, the constitution and Parliamentary protocol.

3. If Rajoy's plan was to impose direct rule why would he bother calling an election? Did he fill you in on his scheme or do you have a link to your source. I know those on here who advocate independence are keen on sources but struggle to post any themselves.

Can the next post advocating independence and Puigdemont have at least one factually based argument.

3. Because he was informed by the PSOE that they would only support direct rule if it was for a limited time period, and followed by a election. The various machinations surrounding the implementation of Article 155 are available online in Spanish newspapers, such as El Diario, El Pais, El Periodico and La Vanguardia.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

3. Because he was informed by the PSOE that they would only support direct rule if it was for a limited time period, and followed by a election. The various machinations surrounding the implementation of Article 155 are available online in Spanish newspapers, such as El Diario, El Pais, El Periodico and La Vanguardia.

Translated as "something something...machinations...Article 155...name some Spanish newspapers"

v638sg7k1a92bx

feargale wrote: »

:rolleyes:

This doesn't apply to me. I'm simply advocating self-determination.

Self determination doesn't apply to Catalonia or it's "peoples" they are and have always been citizens of Spain. Even less so when you consider that it was the Kingdom of Aragon (Catalonia) and Castile that united to form the country of Spain as we know it today.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Translated as "something something...machinations...Article 155...name some Spanish newspapers"

I told you precisely what happened, it's your own affair if you want to be obtuse.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

I told you precisely what happened, it's your own affair if you want to be obtuse.

But your arguments don't make sense, what exactly is your overall point?

Take this for example

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

3. Because he was informed by the PSOE that they would only support direct rule if it was for a limited time period, and followed by a election. The various machinations surrounding the implementation of Article 155 are available online in Spanish newspapers, such as El Diario, El Pais, El Periodico and La Vanguardia.

You just posted about something that was reported in the local papers about how PSOE would only support direct rule for a limited period. But Rajoy has the constitutional right to enact 155 he doesn't need the support of PSOE so what point are you trying to make and how is this an argument for independence.

Just give me one reason why you think Catalonia should be an independent county other than the fact that you're a Barca fan?

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

But your arguments don't make sense, what exactly is your overall point?

Take this for example



You just posted about something that was reported in the local papers about how PSOE would only support direct rule for a limited period. But Rajoy has the constitutional right to enact 155 he doesn't need the support of PSOE so what point are you trying to make and how is this an argument for independence.

Just give me one reason why you think Catalonia should be an independent county other than the fact that you're a Barca fan?

I didn't say it was an argument for independence - you asked me why the PP were offering to hold elections, rather than indefinite home rule. Rajoy wanted a consensus approach with the PSOE and Ciudadanos, rather than taking a singular path, and one condition that was made was that elections would be held in the earliest possible period.

As for independence, that's for Catalans themselves to thrash out, but 70-80% have consistently demanded a final vote on the issue, and that should be the paramount concern:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum%2C_2017#On_whether_a_referendum_should_be_held

An Ciarraioch

Rajoy tells the Cortes that fresh Catalan elections wouldn't prevent the application of Article 155, so expect a UDI by the end of the Catalan parliamentary session on Friday.

An Ciarraioch

Spanish and Catalan press now widely reporting that the Catalan Republic will be declared by parliamentary vote on Friday.

An Ciarraioch

It appears Puigdemont has done another about-turn, and that Catalan elections will be announced at 12.30 Irish time.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

It appears Puigdemont has done another about-turn, and that Catalan elections will be announced at 12.30 Irish time.

A political stunt rather than a U turn. 155 will be enacted either way and then the perraflautas will say that central government are trying to suppress democracy by not letting them hold elections or some nonsense.

The real issue here is that many of the politicians and ruling class in Cataluña are up to their neck in corruption charges and this whole thing is just a charade to try avert the impending fraud investigations and jail sentences. Some of these are looking at jail sentences and nobody in the international media mentions this when they weigh in on the debate. Just look at the formation of the existing government in Cataluña, two diametrically opposed political ideologies forming a government to create this whole smoke screen of independence to avert attention from when the details of the Andorra bank accounts will be published form January 2018. Many of the top players will be going to jail and they are all scrambling for cover trying to save their own necks and have no problem in collapsing the temple on their own head with this gamble for independence.

An Ciarraioch

The interesting aspect is that the Socialists are no longer backing 155 after the announcement, and given the PP has negligible support in Catalonia, Ciudadanos will be the main political target.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Putin encourages independence movement via envoy to Catalonia https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/26/inenglish/1509011964_600939.html

Spidey senses tingling