Catalan independence referendum, 2017

An Ciarraioch

Being widely reported now that the Basque leader, Urkullu has been acting as a mediator between Barcelona and Madrid.

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An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Being widely reported now that the Basque leader, Urkullu has been acting as a mediator between Barcelona and Madrid.

More like Vladimir Putin

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Putin encourages independence movement via envoy to Catalonia https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/26/inenglish/1509011964_600939.html

Spidey senses tingling

El Pais have virtually morphed into the Spanish version of the Daily Express in recent years.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

El Pais have virtually morphed into the Spanish version of the Daily Express in recent years.

Really? I take their reportage over RT In either case they have never been fans of Rajoy or the PP.

Did they widely report on any these breaking news events you mentioned

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Spanish and Catalan press now widely reporting that the Catalan Republic will be declared by parliamentary vote on Friday.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The interesting aspect is that the Socialists are no longer backing 155 after the announcement, and given the PP has negligible support in Catalonia, Ciudadanos will be the main political target.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Being widely reported now that the Basque leader, Urkullu has been acting as a mediator between Barcelona and Madrid.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Really? I take their reportage over RT In either case they have never been fans of Rajoy or the PP.

Did they widely report on any these breaking news events you mentioned

El Diario have been neutral throughout:

http://www.eldiario.es

An Ciarraioch

La Vanguardia now report the press conference has been cancelled indefinitely - some last minute snafu?

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171026/432363311763/articulo-155-constitucion-parlament-senado-independencia-cataluna-rajoy-puigdemont.html

An Ciarraioch

It appears things presently hang on whether 155 is suspended - if not, could be back to square one by teatime.

http://www.eldiario.es

feargale

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Putin encourages independence movement via envoy to Catalonia https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/26/inenglish/1509011964_600939.html

It wouldn't be the first time that an independence movement, on being treated with disdain, sought strange company, EU take note.

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feargale wrote: »

It wouldn't be the first time that an independence movement, on being treated with disdain, sought strange company, EU take note.

Where is the disdain exactly?

An Ciarraioch

ERC reportedly threatened to quit if elections were called, and now Puigdemont's final decision will be announced in just over five minutes.

An Ciarraioch

Puigdemont presser states that the intention to hold elections was genuine, but as PP planned to go ahead with 155 anyway, they would have been pointless. Looks like it's back to UDI in the Generalitat.

An Ciarraioch

Voting on parliamentary resolutions will take place tomorrow morning.

Hector Savage

DECLARED.

Bye bye democracy

An Ciarraioch

And over within 24 hours, given that Article 155 will be practically implemented on Saturday morning. Let's just hope that both sides will enter talks in the weeks and months to come.

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Hector Savage wrote: »

DECLARED.

Bye bye democracy

Exactly, another illegal vote by a minority of people. Subverting democracy to impose their idiocracy on the majority. They can't even abide by their own Parliamentary rules.

Gbear

This whole thing seems like an exercise in self-deception from Spain.

No matter what they do, there's no going back. Catalunya has pushed consistently for independence for 100 years. They're not just going to stop this time because they have their parliament dissolved.

I'm not a fan of nationalism. It's a load of bollocks; arbitrarily casting a net to group people together in order to con them out of giving up something, but if it's the choice between two brands of nationalism I'll always go for the smallest net being cast.

Avatar MIA

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Exactly, another illegal vote by a minority of people. Subverting democracy to impose their idiocracy on the majority. They can't even abide by their own Parliamentary rules.

If you keep saying it do you think people will start to agree with you.

Look forward to the repeats when The Basque country leaves.

eire4

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If you keep saying it do you think people will start to agree with you.

Look forward to the repeats when The Basque country leaves.

The Basque situation is complicated further by the fact that a good portion of the Basque country is in France as well as Spain.

Avatar MIA

eire4 wrote: »

The Basque situation is complicated further by the fact that a good portion of the Basque country is in France as well as Spain.

Or is France and Spain in the Basque country?

Hector Savage

Gbear wrote: »

This whole thing seems like an exercise in self-deception from Spain.

No matter what they do, there's no going back. Catalunya has pushed consistently for independence for 100 years. They're not just going to stop this time because they have their parliament dissolved.

I'm not a fan of nationalism. It's a load of bollocks; arbitrarily casting a net to group people together in order to con them out of giving up something, but if it's the choice between two brands of nationalism I'll always go for the smallest net being cast.

A minority of people have pushed for independence, 38% MAX want independence.

Gbear

Hector Savage wrote: »

A minority of people have pushed for independence, 38% MAX want independence.

Your statement is utterly false.

At best you're guessing. At worst you're lying through your teeth.

You can't advocate the suppression of a vote to determine the mandate of the people re. independence on the one hand and then ignore the result when it goes against you while your suppression might have skewed the result.

Bishopsback

Govt sacked, police chief sacked, fresh elections called for Dec 21st.
It looks like the Spanish govt is planning to take control of the situation and force the region to shut up or put up.
I wonder how they will treat anyone who runs for election with a separatist agenda. The next 7 weeks will be interesting to say the least!

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1027/915581-catalonia/

Gringo180

Will the Spanish thugs be out again attacking women with there batons?

Hector Savage

Rahoy dissolves the Catalan parliament, Good Man Rahoy ...

Hector Savage

Gbear wrote: »

Your statement is utterly false.

At best you're guessing. At worst you're lying through your teeth.

You can't advocate the suppression of a vote to determine the mandate of the people re. independence on the one hand and then ignore the result when it goes against you while your suppression might have skewed the result.

What ?
42% turnout, 90% voted "Yes"
Thats 38% of voting pop.

Utterly false ? really ....

Obvious Otter

Hector Savage wrote: »

A minority of people have pushed for independence, 38% MAX want independence.

That’s just not true. That figure is based on the turnout which was 43% and 90% of the people that voted for independence. The assumption there is that out of the 57% of people that didn’t vote not a single one would vote in favour of independence and many people didn’t vote becuase they don't agree with Catalan independence but also because of the warnings from the Spanish government and the heavy handed police presence at polling stations.

The only way out for both sides now is an official referendum on independence. Anything else will lead to a complete unsatisfactory conclusion. The Spanish government are steadily tipping the scales towards independence. The EU, again, are showing their ineptness at dealing with serious political issues in the region. I have no doubt if Assad or Trump did what the Spanish police did to the Catalans we would have people calling for impeachment and/or sanctions.

LeinsterDub

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

And over within 24 hours, given that Article 155 will be practically implemented on Saturday morning. Let's just hope that both sides will enter talks in the weeks and months to come.

From Spain's point of view entering talks would be just legitimising the Catalans. The Spanish have nothing left to give and the Catalans will only accept independence.

Gbear

Hector Savage wrote: »

What ?
42% turnout, 90% voted "Yes"
Thats 38% of voting pop.

Utterly false ? really ....

You stated that's the MAX amount of support.

Such a claim is false. And you know it's false. You're being very transparently intellectually dishonest.

The truth is you don't know how much support there is. It's probably in and around 50%, give or take 5%.

If only there was some sort of way to determine what the number is in detail....

Gbear

Obvious Otter wrote: »

The EU, again, are showing their ineptness at dealing with serious political issues in the region. I have no doubt if Assad or Trump did what the Spanish police did to the Catalans we would have people calling for impeachment and/or sanctions.

The response from the entire Western world has been to support Spain, but that's hardly even remotely surprising.

To do anything else would be to undermine the stability of their own governments.

It's very obviously cynical and self-serving, but they don't really have any other choice in practical turns.

It's important not to read too much into it.

After a certain point, if Catalunya becomes independent, it's relationship with everyone else will be normalised.
Some lies will be told so everyone can save face and things will carry on.

The main reason why everyone doesn't want to secede from everyone else is because they don't want to, not because they can't.

FrancieBrady

I think the least Varadkar could have done should have been to play the neutral, given our road to independence. He should have been calling for the EU to act as mediator here.