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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

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  • #932
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Akrasia wrote: »
    If they know its only a minority, why not do an officially sanctioned referendum without the police repression and opposition boycott?

    We've been over this already. The means to hold a referendum already exists within the Spanish constitution however the existing Catalonian government decided to break their own parliamentary rules because they couldn't get a majority within their own parliament. They pressed ahead with an illegal referendum which they then left in the hands of a group of volunteers to administer.


  • #933
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    You can't compare Ireland to Catalonia.
    We have been doing it throughout this thread, and there are some very interesting parallels. The main difference is that Catalans have been far more peaceful about it, and have waited until they could show a democratic majority.
    But then it is 100 years later, and things are usually done differently nowadays.
    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Even the fact that Scotland got to legally hold an independent referendum demonstrates this.
    It demonstrates that the UK has learned a lot in 100 years, but Madrid has learned nothing.


  • #934
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    We've been over this already. The means to hold a referendum already exists within the Spanish constitution however the existing Catalonian government decided to break their own parliamentary rules because they couldn't get a majority within their own parliament. They pressed ahead with an illegal referendum which they then left in the hands of a group of volunteers to administer.

    Which does not actually answer the question asked


  • #935
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Which does not actually answer the question asked

    The answer is simple. When the Catalonian government can pass an independence bill in their own parliament they can call an referendum on independence.


  • #936
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    recedite wrote: »
    We have been doing it throughout this thread, and there are some very interesting parallels. The main difference is that Catalans have been far more peaceful about it, and have waited until they could show a democratic majority.
    But then it is 100 years later, and things are usually done differently nowadays.

    It demonstrates that the UK has learned a lot in 100 years, but Madrid has learned nothing.

    How can they have a democratic majority when they don't have a majority in their own parliament?


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  • #937
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    How can they have a democratic majority when they don't have a majority in their own parliament?

    Tell us, what was the parliamentary vote for independence, both yea and nah votes?


  • #938
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The majority of people in Catalonia don't want independence. But the police were bad.

    It's impossible to know whether this was the case, because the police were bad.


  • #939
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    All over Catalonia, in the majority of cases, either people participated in the "referendum" or police removed the ballot boxes without any incident. In some parts of Catalonia police clashed with protesters which everyone agrees shouldn't happen. However, many of the images we've seen that they have been proven to be fake, not all of them but many of them. The problem is that people are allowing these incidents to cloud their judgement and are basing their opinions on their emotions rather than facts and rather than dealing with the facts they keep referring back to these incidents to justify their ill informed opinions. So when people say that the majority of people both in Spain and Cataluña don't want independence or that the Minority Catalonian government broke their own parliamentary rules to call a referendum in the first place, pro independence advocates scream outrage at the brutal Franco regime in Madrid suppressing democracy or some other exzaggerated claims as if people in Cataluña we're living in some type of apartheid regime.

    Every other Western European democracy would have done exactly the same as the Spanish government did by implementing 155. What other country would allow a minority of people try to impose their ideology on the majority and break up their country?

    Spot on.

    Spot. on.


  • #940
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The answer is simple. When the Catalonian government can pass an independence bill in their own parliament they can call an referendum on independence.

    Again, this does not answer the question posed


  • #941
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    How can they have a democratic majority when they don't have a majority in their own parliament?

    The pro-independence parties do have a majority in their own parliament


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  • #942
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Tell us, what was the parliamentary vote for independence, both yea and nah votes?

    Whereby the Catalonian statutes requires a two thirds majority, and almost half he delegates walk out in protests? I don't know please tell me?


  • #943
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    It's impossible to know whether this was the case, because the police were bad.

    Whether the police were there that day or not, the referendum was illegal and administered by a group of volunteers with no legal oversight. The results and turn out are meaningless because people who are against independence wouldn't have participated in a referendum which they considered to be illegal the first place. You may as well have asked them to conduct a twitter poll, it would have had more oversight and the equivalent legal recognition.


  • #944
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    The pro-independence parties do have a majority in their own parliament

    Nonsense, it's a minority government.


  • #945
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    Nonsense, it's a minority government.

    It looks like you do not know the difference between parliament and government :pac:


  • #946
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    It looks like you do not know the difference between parliament and government :pac:

    It looks like you're clutching at straws by trying to split hairs. Reality is you cannot come up with an argument for independence other than the phoney referendum.


  • #947
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Again, this does not answer the question posed


    Question
    Akrasia wrote: »
    If they know its only a minority, why not do an officially sanctioned referendum without the police repression and opposition boycott?

    Answer
    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    We've been over this already. The means to hold a referendum already exists within the Spanish constitution however the existing Catalonian government decided to break their own parliamentary rules because they couldn't get a majority within their own parliament. They pressed ahead with an illegal referendum which they then left in the hands of a group of volunteers to administer.

    Question
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Which does not actually answer the question asked

    Answer
    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    The answer is simple. When the Catalonian government can pass an independence bill in their own parliament they can call an referendum on independence.
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Again, this does not answer the question posed

    I'm sorry if facts don't agree with your confirmation bias but if you keep asking the same question the answer is not going to change.


  • #948
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    It looks like you're clutching at straws by trying to split hairs. Reality is you cannot come up with an argument for independence other than the phoney referendum.


    You have just demonstrated ignorance


  • #949
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    ....snip......

    No answer to the question posed, you are just spoofing now


  • #950
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    No answer to the question posed, you are just spoofing now

    I am confused , what is the question ?


  • #951
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    You have just demonstrated ignorance

    When all else fails attack the poster, all the while you have yet to cite a valid, factual reason for Catalonian independence other than romanticise about the parallels of Irish independence and Cataluña which don't exist to begin with.


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  • #952
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    marienbad wrote: »
    I am confused , what is the question ?

    Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
    If they know its only a minority, why not do an officially sanctioned referendum without the police repression and opposition boycott?


  • #953
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,241 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    When all else fails attack the poster, all the while you have yet to cite a valid, factual reason for Catalonian independence other than romanticise about the parallels of Irish independence and Cataluña which don't exist to begin with.

    You have just demonstrated your ignorance of parliamentary majority for a topic and government...


  • #954
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    marienbad wrote: »
    I am confused , what is the question ?

    They don't even know themselves. They're just trying to run the thread into the ground now.


  • #955
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Originally Posted by Akrasia View Post
    If they know its only a minority, why not do an officially sanctioned referendum without the police repression and opposition boycott?

    But surely you know that is not how government institutions work . If it was we would be having referendums all over the democratic world every day of the week on every kind of issue .

    There is a constitutional mechanism in place to implement a referendum , why not at least go through that first ?


  • #956
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,497 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    marienbad wrote: »
    But surely you know that is not how government institutions work . If it was we would be having referendums all over the democratic world every day of the week on every kind of issue .

    There is a constitutional mechanism in place to implement a referendum , why not at least go through that first ?

    A Spanish wide referendum you mean? So ask turkey's to vote for Christmas? Hypothetically, what would you suggest Catalonia do if it was gauged that there was near unanimous support for independence and the right to self-determination, yet Spain forever deemed it illegal and the "constitutional mechanism" forever prevented it from happening?


  • #957
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    A Spanish wide referendum you mean? So ask turkey's to vote for Christmas? Hypothetically, what would you suggest Catalonia do if it was gauged that there was near unanimous support for independence and the right to self-determination, yet Spain forever deemed it illegal and the "constitutional mechanism" forever prevented it from happening?

    1. Over 90% of people voted in favour of the Spanish constitution

    2. Self determination does not apply to The "people" of Catalonia


  • #958
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    marienbad wrote: »
    But surely you know that is not how government institutions work . If it was we would be having referendums all over the democratic world every day of the week on every kind of issue .

    There is a constitutional mechanism in place to implement a referendum , why not at least go through that first ?

    Exactly what I've been saying for the past few pages but the same posters refuse to accept these basic facts.

    Bear in mind that the same poster you responded to said this about me
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    You have just demonstrated your ignorance of parliamentary majority for a topic and government...


  • #959
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,497 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    1. Over 90% of people voted in favour of the Spanish constitution

    2. Self determination does not apply to The "people" of Catalonia

    Mate, you've already bored the hole off me after reading some of your posts. I've addressed the above two points 50 pages ago, so go and find them if you want an answer. Other than that, keep regurgitating the same robotic points others already made 30 pages ago. I think the poster in question can answer for themselves, I'm actually interested in their opinion


  • #960
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    The Golden Miller wrote: »
    Mate, you've already bored the hole off me after reading some of your posts. I've addressed the above two points 50 pages ago, so go and find them if you want an answer. Other than that, keep regurgitating the same robotic points others already made 30 pages ago. I think the poster in question can answer for themselves, I'm actually interested in their opinion

    50 pages later and your facts are still wrong. The real facts are that 90% of the people of Catalonia voted in favour of he Spanish constitution, the democratic means for a vote on Catalonian independence exists. If a minority of people in Cataluña and Spain are upset because other people don't want to be forced into living in ideological country or breaking up an existing one then that's tough. They don't have a democratic means to even pass a vote in their own parliament to allow them to call an election in the first place. They can't even get past the fist most basic hurdle.

    I'm sorry if the facts don't agree with your confirmation bias.


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  • #961
    The Golden Miller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,497 ✭✭✭The Golden Miller


    Celia Late Troop wrote: »
    50 pages later and your facts are still wrong. The real facts are that 90% of the people of Catalonia voted in favour of he Spanish constitution, the democratic means for a vote on Catalonian independence exists. If a minority of people in Cataluña and Spain are upset because other people don't want to be forced into living in ideological country or breaking up an existing one then that's tough. They don't have a democratic means to even pass a vote in their own parliament to call an election in the first place. They can't even get past the fist most basic hurdle.

    I'm sorry if the facts don't agree with your confirmation bias.

    Cool story. As I said, the poster can answer for themselves.


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