Catalan independence referendum, 2017

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Cool story. As I said, the poster can answer for themselves.

Just go around the houses until someone gives you the answer you want to hear? The facts aren't going to change no matter who you ask.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Just go around the houses until someone gives you the answer you want to hear? The facts aren't going to change no matter who you ask.

I wasn't asking for "facts". I was asking for a posters opinion on how they view the situation. Is that alright with you? Or are you just in the habit of shoving your "facts" down everyone else's throat? Good lad, we'll leave it there.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I wasn't asking for "facts". I was asking for a posters opinion on how they view the situation. Is that alright with you? Or are you just in the habit of shoving you "facts" down everyone else's throat? Good lad, we'll leave it there.

Ok that makes sense, you prefer opinions over facts??? We can't go around "shoving facts down everyone else's throat" people might actually be informed if we did that!

Did everyone just see what I did to @The Golden Miller, it was like this...

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Ok that makes sense, you prefer opinions over facts??? We can't go around "shoving facts down everyone else's throat" people might actually be informed if we did that!

Did everyone just see what I did to @The Golden Miller, it was like this...

Opinions and facts are different, so it's not a case of preferring one to the other. So ye, you got me alright :pac:. But ye, I think people are beginning to see.....maybe we should all "informed" in the "right way" without any deviation of individual thought? Where did we see that before? You sure you're not related to Franco?

Samaris

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

All over Catalonia, in the majority of cases, either people participated in the "referendum" or police removed the ballot boxes without any incident. In some parts of Catalonia police clashed with protesters which everyone agrees shouldn't happen. However, many of the images we've seen have been proven to be fake, not all of them but many of them. The problem is that people are allowing these incidents to cloud their judgement and are basing their opinions on their emotions rather than facts and rather than dealing with the facts they keep referring back to these incidents to justify their ill informed opinions. So when people say that the majority of people both in Spain and Cataluña don't want independence or that the Minority Catalonian government broke their own parliamentary rules to call a referendum in the first place, pro independence advocates scream outrage at the brutal Franco regime in Madrid suppressing democracy or some other exzaggerated claims as if people in Cataluña we're living in some type of apartheid regime.

Every other Western European democracy would have done exactly the same as the Spanish government did by implementing 155. What other country would allow a minority of people try to impose their ideology on the majority and break up their country?

You have missed a findamental point, which is that a lot of people who are pointing out the difficulties the Madrid government have now contributed to a messy situation are not neccessarily pro-Independence.

What several people, myself included, are trying to point out to you is that if you piss off a portion of your population enough - to the stage of having the police attack them (and yes, it did happen, even the Spanish government admits that!) - it ultimately ends up not mattering if the population should or should not have voted. People can only be governed by either consent or a fist, and the fist generally does not work forever, particularly in a wealthy region. Spain showed the fist. Things are now automatically more difficult.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Aside from all the virtue signalling and Orwellian conspiracy theories, just because the police were heavy handed in some instances is not an argument for Catalonian independence.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

When all else fails attack the poster, all the while you have yet to cite a valid, factual reason for Catalonian independence other than romanticise about the parallels of Irish independence and Cataluña which don't exist to begin with.

Yes, there's a reason why "attack the poster" is not considered a decent debating tool, the reaction you've gotten should be a decent example of it. Even if you are factually correct (and I suspect you've gone overboard), your approach is rude, confrontational and you refuse to acknowledge the points other people are making because you are lazered in on your own point.

Descending to insults and jibes is worthless as an argument.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Ok that makes sense, you prefer opinions over facts??? We can't go around "shoving facts down everyone else's throat" people might actually be informed if we did that!

Did everyone just see what I did to @The Golden Miller, it was like this...

You know, it works better if someone else posts the burn acknowledgement or smackdown. It's cringeworthy to run your victory lap before you've won.

By the way, when did 90% of the Catalan population agree to the Spanish constitution? Are you talking about the original agreement? The 1979 referendum (which was on the statute of autonomy) was 59.7% turnout, of which 88.1% voted acceptance; 48.85%. turnout, 73.24% agreement for 2006. (99.8% in 1931 though!)

Beware your red herrings. 1979 was a while ago, and it's been complicated since, including by Spain clipping their autonomous wings in 2010.

Before the referendum, Catalonia tended to be primarily pro-Spain. Even up to a few days before. Madrid needs to ease back on the stick and recognise that it is making things worse, however. It doesn't entirely matter at that point if they're strictly speaking correct or not - Madrid cannot easily rule Barcelona if it is having to keep it by force, and Catalonia will not take kindly to the loss of autonomy. This is exactly the sort of situation that has lead to all the other Catalonian rebellions throughout their shared history and it is downright foolish to invite another one for want of some tact.

And, btw, since this started I have been generally on the side of the status quo as I don't think independence will do Catalonia or Spain any good and will have ripple effects on all the countries surrounding them. But Spain has been winding up the Catalans for a few years now, and Rajoy in particular appears to have been using/building up the "Catalan question" to distract from the financial issues within Spain after the crash. Keep creating a question of division and hey presto, division happens.

Yes, the referendum was illegal. Just like people keep commenting on the police action, people keep commenting on that too. There is no point denying either. The will of the people will eventually trump either however, so driving the will of the people into rebellion is a damnfool thing to do.

George Sunsnow

The referendum was unscientific Regardless,Madrid should have no problems at all in the interim as she pays the wages and collects the taxes

Mr Puigdemont looks like a buffoon living in a bubble whenever I see him drunk on his perceived non existent power

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

A Spanish wide referendum you mean? So ask turkey's to vote for Christmas? Hypothetically, what would you suggest Catalonia do if it was gauged that there was near unanimous support for independence and the right to self-determination, yet Spain forever deemed it illegal and the "constitutional mechanism" forever prevented it from happening?

I think the first thing the Independence movement has to do is to win a convincing majority with the Catalan Parliament and Catalan population . Until it does that it cannot claim to speak for Catalonia .

Just for argument sake lets say they achieved that then they must get into a dialogue with the Spanish government . Whether that ends in independence is an open question . imho it is very doubtful , but these steps must still be gone through if they are to have any legitimacy .

As a side issue what is the difference between Catalonia and N.Ireland ? Unionists sentiment has had a majority in every election since the foundation of the state , so why do the same rules not apply ?

hatrickpatrick

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Whether the police were there that day or not, the referendum was illegal and administered by a group of volunteers with no legal oversight. The results and turn out are meaningless because people who are against independence wouldn't have participated in a referendum which they considered to be illegal the first place. You may as well have asked them to conduct a twitter poll, it would have had more oversight and the equivalent legal recognition.

The declaration of the Irish Republic was illegal too. So was Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on the bus. I mean this really shouldn't need to be stated, but most of the avenues for the oppressed to take back power from their oppressors are deemed illegal by those oppressors - because the oppressors get to make those laws and they obviously want to perpetuate their ability to oppress.

I can give you a thousand examples from history of "illegal" acts of defiance against oppressors which nonetheless were the right thing to do.

Hector Savage

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The declaration of the Irish Republic was illegal too. So was Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on the bus. I mean this really shouldn't need to be stated, but most of the avenues for the oppressed to take back power from their oppressors are deemed illegal by those oppressors - because the oppressors get to make those laws and they obviously want to perpetuate their ability to oppress.

I can give you a thousand examples from history of "illegal" acts of defiance against oppressors which nonetheless were the right thing to do.

Catalans aren't repressed.
Just cos a few dick head Guardia Civil officers were baton happy that day doesn't make it so .. in fact if any culture is repressed in Catalonia its Spanish, kids
only taught the absolute minimum Spanish in schools.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Samaris wrote: »

You have missed a findamental point, which is that a lot of people who are pointing out the difficulties the Madrid government have now contributed to a messy situation are not neccessarily pro-Independence.

What several people, myself included, are trying to point out to you is that if you piss off a portion of your population enough - to the stage of having the police attack them (and yes, it did happen, even the Spanish government admits that!) - it ultimately ends up not mattering if the population should or should not have voted. People can only be governed by either consent or a fist, and the fist generally does not work forever, particularly in a wealthy region. Spain showed the fist. Things are now automatically more difficult.




Yes, there's a reason why "attack the poster" is not considered a decent debating tool, the reaction you've gotten should be a decent example of it. Even if you are factually correct (and I suspect you've gone overboard), your approach is rude, confrontational and you refuse to acknowledge the points other people are making because you are lazered in on your own point.

Descending to insults and jibes is worthless as an argument.


You know, it works better if someone else posts the burn acknowledgement or smackdown. It's cringeworthy to run your victory lap before you've won.

By the way, when did 90% of the Catalan population agree to the Spanish constitution? Are you talking about the original agreement? The 1979 referendum (which was on the statute of autonomy) was 59.7% turnout, of which 88.1% voted acceptance; 48.85%. turnout, 73.24% agreement for 2006. (99.8% in 1931 though!)

Beware your red herrings. 1979 was a while ago, and it's been complicated since, including by Spain clipping their autonomous wings in 2010.

Before the referendum, Catalonia tended to be primarily pro-Spain. Even up to a few days before. Madrid needs to ease back on the stick and recognise that it is making things worse, however. It doesn't entirely matter at that point if they're strictly speaking correct or not - Madrid cannot easily rule Barcelona if it is having to keep it by force, and Catalonia will not take kindly to the loss of autonomy. This is exactly the sort of situation that has lead to all the other Catalonian rebellions throughout their shared history and it is downright foolish to invite another one for want of some tact.

And, btw, since this started I have been generally on the side of the status quo as I don't think independence will do Catalonia or Spain any good and will have ripple effects on all the countries surrounding them. But Spain has been winding up the Catalans for a few years now, and Rajoy in particular appears to have been using/building up the "Catalan question" to distract from the financial issues within Spain after the crash. Keep creating a question of division and hey presto, division happens.

Yes, the referendum was illegal. Just like people keep commenting on the police action, people keep commenting on that too. There is no point denying either. The will of the people will eventually trump either however, so driving the will of the people into rebellion is a damnfool thing to do.

Catalonia is the most autonomous region in the democratic world. The Basque country in Spain is the second. The central government has nothing more to give Catalonia. The buck stops here. the simple fact is that Catalonia is part of Spain, they have always been Spanish, they are not a colonised people under the rule of some apartheid regime. All the commentary and poetry on this thread about Ireland and 1916, and the same struggle we underwent is, the right to self determination is all nonsense. The majority of people both in Spain and in Catalonia want to remain part of Spain.

George Sunsnow

Catalonia independence: Huge Barcelona pro-Spain rally
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41794087

Polls suggest 52:41 Against independence
Meanwhile at least 5 times the number of pro independence marchers that came out after that ‘referendum’ are protesting today in Barcelona against former president Pudgemonts ‘declaration’ of independence

I think he may as well take up the Belgian offer of asylum

v638sg7k1a92bx

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The declaration of the Irish Republic was illegal too. So was Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on the bus. I mean this really shouldn't need to be stated, but most of the avenues for the oppressed to take back power from their oppressors are deemed illegal by those oppressors - because the oppressors get to make those laws and they obviously want to perpetuate their ability to oppress.

I can give you a thousand examples from history of "illegal" acts of defiance against oppressors which nonetheless were the right thing to do.

Why did Catalonia do the right thing by declaring independence, how are the people of Catalonia better off by being a separate country? What freedoms or rights will they gain they don't already have?

hatrickpatrick

Hector Savage wrote: »

Catalans aren't repressed.
Just cos a few dick head Guardia Civil officers were baton happy that day doesn't make it so .. in fact if any culture is repressed in Catalonia its Spanish, kids
only taught the absolute minimum Spanish in schools.

As far as I'm concerned, literally the second any government force uses physical violence to suppress any non-violent movement, that movement has entirely legitimate grounds to claim oppression and the government has zero credibility. It's that simple. Using physical violence against a nonviolent movement is the act of a repressive state, simple as that.

I apply the same in reverse, by the way. Any non-state movements which instigate physical violence against a state which was happy not to use physical violence to resolve something should be condemned for that.

Whoever escalates a non-violent conflict into a violent one by being the first of the involved factions to use violence in my view is automatically the villain, regardless of context. Any escalation from nonviolence to violence in any context whatsoever, whether it starts a pub fight or a civil war, should be condemned as should the responsible party.

flaneur

This crisis would simply not have happened at all had they allowed the referendum to go ahead. It would have more than likely been defeated and even if it did pass, it would have been the basis to begin talks about Catalonia's future.

What they did was extremely over the top and anti-democratic and stinks to high heaven of an immature, authoritarian state that isn't grown up enough to debate something.

Whether or not it's a good idea for Catalonia to be independent is another debate entirely. The way the Spanish Central Government reacted was absolutely disgraceful.

hatrickpatrick

flaneur wrote: »

Whether or not it's a good idea for Catalonia to be independent is another debate entirely. The way the Spanish Central Government reacted was absolutely disgraceful.

You will always get people in these debates who defend undemocratic practises in the cause of maintaining order. Many people believe this to be acceptable, and while I vehemently disagree, I at least understand the viewpoint. What I don't understand, however, is how anybody could possible regard what the Spanish government did as anything other than utterly, catastrophically, monumentally stupid. How did anyone think this was going to end? Using violence against a peaceful movement is only ever going to radicalise that movement. Show me even one example from human history in which this was not the case. Escalating a nonviolent situation into a violent one makes radicalisation absolutely inevitable.

First Up

flaneur wrote:

Whether or not it's a good idea for Catalonia to be independent is another debate entirely. The way the Spanish Central Government reacted was absolutely disgraceful.

From this distance it looks like they handled it very badly but we aren't privy to the detail. There looks to be some personality clashes as well as party politics involved, which really shouldn't be how these things are dealt with.

Its a very unfortunate turn of events. I hope everyone comes to their senses and this can be ended without too much loss of face.

Nody

flaneur wrote: »

This crisis would simply not have happened at all had they allowed the referendum to go ahead.

The referendum had been declared illegal by their highest court; ignoring it would have been failure to enforce their own legal system's rulings.

It would have more than likely been defeated and even if it did pass, it would have been the basis to begin talks about Catalonia's future.

There was not basis to discus a future for Catalonia based on an illegal referendum that did not meet Catalonian nor Spanish law. It would be like the Italian government starting to talk with the local Mafia over how the police enforcement should be performed. If Catalonia wanted independence they would need to follow the legal recourse available to do so.

What they did was extremely over the top and anti-democratic and stinks to high heaven of an immature, authoritarian state that isn't grown up enough to debate something.

What is there to debate? The Catalonian government decided to ignore their own laws and the Spanish courts ruling on the subject to push their own agenda. If the populace in Catalonia was that interested in independence they can simply vote in a larger majority of said parties (which have consistently failed to get enough votes required to actually do it legally, funny that...).

hatrickpatrick

Nody wrote: »

The referendum had been declared illegal by their highest court; ignoring it would have been failure to enforce their own legal system's rulings.

Ignoring its result would have had a better effect, since the referendum was illegal. Trying to physically prevent people from voting through violence was utterly moronic. Trying to vote is not a violent action, therefore by meeting it with violence, the cops and by extension the Spanish state automatically become the bad guy in the narrative.

Brendan Bendar

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ignoring its result would have had a better effect, since the referendum was illegal. Trying to physically prevent people from voting through violence was utterly moronic. Trying to vote is not a violent action, therefore by meeting it with violence, the cops and by extension the Spanish state automatically become the bad guy in the narrative.

Agree there, but seems a lot of the ‘silent majority’ have woken up and let their views be known.

Lot of the air going out of this now.

v638sg7k1a92bx

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, literally the second any government force uses physical violence to suppress any non-violent movement, that movement has entirely legitimate grounds to claim oppression and the government has zero credibility. It's that simple. Using physical violence against a nonviolent movement is the act of a repressive state, simple as that.

I apply the same in reverse, by the way. Any non-state movements which instigate physical violence against a state which was happy not to use physical violence to resolve something should be condemned for that.

Whoever escalates a non-violent conflict into a violent one by being the first of the involved factions to use violence in my view is automatically the villain, regardless of context. Any escalation from nonviolence to violence in any context whatsoever, whether it starts a pub fight or a civil war, should be condemned as should the responsible party.

So when the Gardai beat the heads off the reclaim the streets protest in Dublin, were those people being oppressed? Every government in Western Europe would be a repressive state by your criteria. So as far as your concerned no matter what the issue is or what the facts are, once the police use force you side with the oppressed rather than the oppressor? Seems like a very primitive view on the world. Make yourself look like the victim to gain support, wonder where that has happened recently...

As I said, the only argument that the indepes can cling onto was that there were some incidents where protesters clashed with police, the vast majority of places in Catalonia passed off peacefully. You have no other argument other than this which is why it's being flogged to death 4 weeks after they occurred. Virtue signalling and the moral high ground is their place of refuge.

Btw, the only people who are being oppressed in Catalonia are the pro Spanish population who have been discriminated for years about expressing their views on Spanish unity.

Calina

Appatently Puigdemont has gone to Brussels.

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

I think the first thing the Independence movement has to do is to win a convincing majority with the Catalan Parliament and Catalan population . Until it does that it cannot claim to speak for Catalonia .

Just for argument sake lets say they achieved that then they must get into a dialogue with the Spanish government . Whether that ends in independence is an open question . imho it is very doubtful , but these steps must still be gone through if they are to have any legitimacy .

So if they did fulfill those steps but Spain still refused their right to self-determination, you'd accept and support the legitimacy of their declaration of independence?

marienbad wrote: »

As a side issue what is the difference between Catalonia and N.Ireland ? Unionists sentiment has had a majority in every election since the foundation of the state , so why do the same rules not apply ?

It has since the GFA. At the time of partition, it was a subversion of democracy, with a random made up line run through selective geographical locations.

recedite

Ousted Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has left Spain and travelled to Brussels, Spanish government officials have said....
The Spanish media reports that the former leader is accompanied by an unspecified number of other members of the Catalan government.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-leader-carles-puigdemont-left-spain-brussels-rebellion-charges-eu-independence-latest-a8027366.html

Stupid cnut. Always happy playing the victim, but lacked the strength or charisma to make it work when crunch time came. And now he's thrown it all away. Not a true leader, unfortunately.
The wrong guy, in the right place, at the right time.

First Up

I hope this unfortunate and uneccessary shambles can be quickly undone and forgotten so that Catalonia and the rest of Spain can get back to being where they both belong - together.

The Golden Miller

recedite wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-leader-carles-puigdemont-left-spain-brussels-rebellion-charges-eu-independence-latest-a8027366.html

Stupid cnut. Always happy playing the victim, but lacked the strength or charisma to make it work when crunch time came. And now he's thrown it all away. Not a true leader, unfortunately.
The wrong guy, in the right place, at the right time.

Definitely. He choked after the referendum when the time came to declare independence the first time round

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

So if they did fulfill those steps but Spain still refused their right to self-determination, you'd accept and support the legitimacy of their declaration of independence?



It has since the GFA. At the time of partition, it was a subversion of democracy, with a random made up line run through selective geographical locations.

I really have nothing invested in the issue , but on a gut level I would support the Spanish State . There are fundamental issues of democracy and the integrity of the nation state at play here , and there are many questions involved , to go through just a few

- in many countries secession is illegal and this is so in that most democratic of nations , the USA . There is a Supreme Court ruling that makes it virtually impossible and leaves the ultimate decision to the Federal Government . This is the case in many other nations so it is not as if Spain is an outlier.

- then there is the question of what consists of the National territory and what is the role of each succeeding generation . Each generation surely has a duty to preserve and protect what it has received as best it may and pass it on to the next tranche of descendants . It can't be right that one generation in the here and now can fly in the face of the 70 previous generations and make a decision that is binding on the next 70.

-All of this presupposes a national territory that is defined and accepted for the most part both internally and externally for a substantial period of time and with the consent of the majority of its people .

- So how does Spain measure in all of this ? imho she does so very well . Modern Spain is based on the merging of Aragon and Castille under Ferdinand and and Isabella , and Catalonia was a legitimate part of the Kingdom of Aragon and so was in on the unification of Spain from the beginning .

- As far as I am aware, except in extreme circumstance like the Franco years , the independence movement in Catalonia has never had a majority for any length of time . Unity is the default majority position .

- As for the notion that current day Catalonia is oppressed , that is simply laughable and is an insult to what is going on in places like Myanmar or N.Ireland for most of its history . In fact if anyone is 'oppressed ' it is the Spanish speakers , their language being made into a 2nnd class ,intimidation against expressing support for unity etc . But even there oppression is way too strong a word .

- Then we have the complaint that the Central government is taking more revenue out than it is putting back . Hello , wake up and smell the coffee - of course the government is taking out more . Just like central government does in every other modern democracy . The Urban , Industrialised and prosperous always subsidise the less developed areas . Just Like Leinster does here or the Home Counties in the UK or the Blue States the Red States in the USA .

Just my 2 cents worth

recedite

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Definitely. He choked after the referendum when the time came to declare independence the first time round

Yep, Carpe diem as they say, but he failed to carpe it. Crapped it instead.
Now he'll probably whinge from Belgium about being a political exile and make a big deal about applying for political asylum there. Having left the Catalan independence movement in tatters while he fled to save his own ass.
He's no Michael Collins.

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

I really have nothing invested in the issue , but on a gut level I would support the Spanish State . There are fundamental issues of democracy and the integrity of the nation state at play here , and there are many questions involved , to go through just a few

- in many countries secession is illegal and this is so in that most democratic of nations , the USA . There is a Supreme Court ruling that makes it virtually impossible and leaves the ultimate decision to the Federal Government . This is the case in many other nations so it is not as if Spain is an outlier.

- then there is the question of what consists of the National territory and what is the role of each succeeding generation . Each generation surely has a duty to preserve and protect what it has received as best it may and pass it on to the next tranche of descendants . It can't be right that one generation in the here and now can fly in the face of the 70 previous generations and make a decision that is binding on the next 70.

-All of this presupposes a national territory that is defined and accepted for the most part both internally and externally for a substantial period of time and with the consent of the majority of its people .

- So how does Spain measure in all of this ? imho she does so very well . Modern Spain is based on the merging of Aragon and Castille under Ferdinand and and Isabella , and Catalonia was a legitimate part of the Kingdom of Aragon and so was in on the unification of Spain from the beginning .

- As far as I am aware, except in extreme circumstance like the Franco years , the independence movement in Catalonia has never had a majority for any length of time . Unity is the default majority position .

- As for the notion that current day Catalonia is oppressed , that is simply laughable and is an insult to what is going on in places like Myanmar or N.Ireland for most of its history . In fact if anyone is 'oppressed ' it is the Spanish speakers , their language being made into a 2nnd class ,intimidation against expressing support for unity etc . But even there oppression is way too strong a word .

- Then we have the complaint that the Central government is taking more revenue out than it is putting back . Hello , wake up and smell the coffee - of course the government is taking out more . Just like central government does in every other modern democracy . The Urban , Industrialised and prosperous always subsidise the less developed areas . Just Like Leinster does here or the Home Counties in the UK or the Blue States the Red States in the USA .

Just my 2 cents worth

I don't believe anyone thinks Catalonia is oppressed. Seems more like exaggerations from people defending Spanish unionists, to mislead from what people are actually saying.

I suppose in any nation, wealth is redistributed from one area to another. In most cases that is fine as we believe we are a one people. The problem is that many Catalans believe their wealth is being given to another people, people who are a different nationality altogether.

I personally wouldn't hold the USA up as any sort of benchmark for democracy. A highly imperialist attitude when it comes to land, territory and power. But then again, their states are not culturally unique like European countries.

I'd say at best, the Catalan peoples acceptance of it's merging with Castille through Aragon is blurry. Nor should it be a factor here. If they as a people see themselves as culturally distinct from the rest of a state and indigenous to a certain territory, I believe they should have the right to self-determination.

The Golden Miller

recedite wrote: »

Yep, Carpe diem as they say, but he failed to carpe it. Crapped it instead.
Now he'll probably whinge from Belgium about being a political exile and make a big deal about applying for political asylum there. Having left the Catalan independence movement in tatters while he fled to save his own ass.
He's no Michael Collins.

It was a very half-hearted declaration of independence alright. If he had any gumption, a legitimate army would be currently under creation to defend their territory from an invading neighbour (from their point of view)

Minderbinder

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

flaneur wrote: »

Whether or not it's a good idea for Catalonia to be independent is another debate entirely. The way the Spanish Central Government reacted was absolutely disgraceful.

You will always get people in these debates who defend undemocratic practises in the cause of maintaining order. Many people believe this to be acceptable, and while I vehemently disagree, I at least understand the viewpoint. What I don't understand, however, is how anybody could possible regard what the Spanish government did as anything other than utterly, catastrophically, monumentally stupid. How did anyone think this was going to end? Using violence against a peaceful movement is only ever going to radicalise that movement. Show me even one example from human history in which this was not the case. Escalating a nonviolent situation into a violent one makes radicalisation absolutely inevitable.

The Tiananmen Square thing. That would be the one that comes to mind, although in the course of human history I’m sure there are countless other examples.

I don’t think the Catalans are radical by any stretch of the imagination. They haven’t been subjected to a period of oppression that would cause them to become radical. There was one fairly minor show of force that seems to have scared the principles out of them. They seem to me to be a bunch of university educated spoiled brats with notions who bit off more than they could chew.

I don’t think it was a mistake by the Spanish government because by allowing a vote to happen would be almost the same as endorsing it. It would also send a message to other regions in the country.