Catalan independence referendum, 2017

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't believe anyone thinks Catalonia is oppressed. Seems more like exaggerations from people defending Spanish unionists, to mislead from what people are actually saying.

I suppose in any nation, wealth is redistributed from one area to another. In most cases that is fine as we believe we are a one people. The problem is that many Catalans believe their wealth is being given to another people, people who are a different nationality altogether.

I personally wouldn't hold the USA up as any sort of benchmark for democracy. A highly imperialist attitude when it comes to land, territory and power. But then again, their states are not culturally unique like European countries.

I'd say at best, the Catalan peoples acceptance of it's merging with Castille through Aragon is blurry. Nor should it be a factor here. If they as a people see themselves as culturally distinct from the rest of a state and indigenous to a certain territory, I believe they should have the right to self-determination.

There is no right to self determination for Catalonia, this term is being grossly over used.

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't believe anyone thinks Catalonia is oppressed. Seems more like exaggerations from people defending Spanish unionists, to mislead from what people are actually saying.

I suppose in any nation, wealth is redistributed from one area to another. In most cases that is fine as we believe we are a one people. The problem is that many Catalans believe their wealth is being given to another people, people who are a different nationality altogether.

I personally wouldn't hold the USA up as any sort of benchmark for democracy. A highly imperialist attitude when it comes to land, territory and power. But then again, their states are not culturally unique like European countries.

I'd say at best, the Catalan peoples acceptance of it's merging with Castille through Aragon is blurry. Nor should it be a factor here. If they as a people see themselves as culturally distinct from the rest of a state and indigenous to a certain territory, I believe they should have the right to self-determination.

I am open to correction but I believe the disparity in funding between what central government keeps and returns vis a vis Catalonia is around 7 % . But I am open to correction on that .

What ever the behaviour of the USA abroad there can be no doubting their level of democracy at home . Virtually every office from local dog catcher to president is subject to ballot , there really is nothing like it . Some ballot papers look like one of the epistles from St.Paul they are so long .

And then we have the Amendments protecting freedom of the press , civil liberties , gun rights etc and we have the freest society in history . Though how that freedom and democracy is used is another matter .

Historically there is no blurriness in the amalgamation of Aragon and Castile . It was a dynastic marriage perfectly acceptable at the time . The problem for the independence movement is that they have never had a majority for any period of time in favour of secession , and there is no getting round that .

recedite

Puigdemont now saying he will contest the December elections while in exile.
So straight away he's dancing to Rajoy's tune, and looking like a loser.
A lot of Catalans on both sides of the independence debate are going to despise him for running away at the decisive moment.

Meanwhile Rajoy will control the airwaves at home, and shut down the pro independence regional TV station.

The end result is that the new parliament will be much more to Rajoy's liking.
In January the new regional parliament can beg to be given back their pre-Article 155 level of autonomy. But in these situations the winner usually likes to punish the losers, so its likely they will end up with slightly less autonomy than they had before.

josip

The Catalans need a Coast Guard to tell Puigdemont to get back on board.

Bridge93

Catalunya can claim that the redistribution of wealth is unfair but the reality is that by not being part of Spain they won’t have any wealth to be unfairly distributed. Like brexit a bunch of jingoistic hotheads play purely on patriotism and ignore the crippling economic and social mess it will cause.

At least half the region do not want independence
All major financial and professional services will jump ship to Spain
They have no tax system, welfare system etc etc of their own
They have no currency
They are out of the EU
And so on

This bloke who calls himself their leader is nothing but a coward of Nigel Farage proportions. Create a mess than leave it to others to fix

First Up

He cut a pretty pathetic figure at the Brussels press conference.

I think the steam is going out of this rather quickly. A decisive pro-Spain result in the regional elections should see the end to it.

Just a pity the pro-Spain electorate were more or less told to boycott the referendum because they probably would have won it. I know why the Spanish government didn't want to recognise the whole thing but it could have nipped it in the bud.

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It was a very half-hearted declaration of independence alright. If he had any gumption, a legitimate army would be currently under creation to defend their territory from an invading neighbour (from their point of view)

Surely you can't be serious with this proposition ?

eire4

marienbad wrote: »

I am open to correction but I believe the disparity in funding between what central government keeps and returns vis a vis Catalonia is around 7 % . But I am open to correction on that .

What ever the behaviour of the USA abroad there can be no doubting their level of democracy at home . Virtually every office from local dog catcher to president is subject to ballot , there really is nothing like it . Some ballot papers look like one of the epistles from St.Paul they are so long .

And then we have the Amendments protecting freedom of the press , civil liberties , gun rights etc and we have the freest society in history . Though how that freedom and democracy is used is another matter .

Historically there is no blurriness in the amalgamation of Aragon and Castile . It was a dynastic marriage perfectly acceptable at the time . The problem for the independence movement is that they have never had a majority for any period of time in favour of secession , and there is no getting round that .

You obviously need to look a lot more at the so called democracy in the US because if that is what your holding up as something great then o boy we are all in trouble. It is highly debatable whether the US is indeed a democracy anymore but is in fact rather an oligarchy. Gerrymandering of congressional districts is rampant as is voter suprression. States all over the country are passing laws to make it harder to vote for groups they don't believe will vote for them. Laws are in place all over the country to prevent any alternatives to the duopoly on power held by the Republican and Democratic parties being able to become viable. A recent study by Princeton and Northwestern Universities concluded that the US is an oligarchy with congress representing the interests of the rich and powerful and not of the majority of Americans.
Close to half of Americans do not vote in presidential elections the turn out is typically in the mid 50% range last time it was 54%. Mid term elections the turn outs are in the mid 30% range last time it was 33% and as for local elections good luck with that. Hardly a healthy democracy there if such few people are voting.

marienbad

eire4 wrote: »

You obviously need to look a lot more at the so called democracy in the US because if that is what your holding up as something great then o boy we are all in trouble. It is highly debatable whether the US is indeed a democracy anymore but is in fact rather an oligarchy. Gerrymandering of congressional districts is rampant as is voter suprression. States all over the country are passing laws to make it harder to vote for groups they don't believe will vote for them. Laws are in place all over the country to prevent any alternatives to the duopoly on power held by the Republican and Democratic parties being able to become viable. A recent study by Princeton and Northwestern Universities concluded that the US is an oligarchy with congress representing the interests of the rich and powerful and not of the majority of Americans.
Close to half of Americans do not vote in presidential elections the turn out is typically in the mid 50% range last time it was 54%. Mid term elections the turn outs are in the mid 30% range last time it was 33% and as for local elections good luck with that. Hardly a healthy democracy there if such few people are voting.

I fully agree with you that there are monumental abuses going on at the present moment , but that is an abuse of the system . The system itself is undeniably the most democratic the world has ever seen .

Now it remains to be seen how robust that system is in fighting back against those abuses and corrupting influences . My money is on the good guys winning .

As for the voting turnout - it is not that much different than our own , usually mid 50's

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

I am open to correction but I believe the disparity in funding between what central government keeps and returns vis a vis Catalonia is around 7 % . But I am open to correction on that .

What ever the behaviour of the USA abroad there can be no doubting their level of democracy at home . Virtually every office from local dog catcher to president is subject to ballot , there really is nothing like it . Some ballot papers look like one of the epistles from St.Paul they are so long .

And then we have the Amendments protecting freedom of the press , civil liberties , gun rights etc and we have the freest society in history . Though how that freedom and democracy is used is another matter .

Historically there is no blurriness in the amalgamation of Aragon and Castile . It was a dynastic marriage perfectly acceptable at the time .

I dunno about the 7% myself, but I'm certain the impression that many Catalans have is that they are pumping alot of money into parts of Spain that they want nothing to do with. I don't think the figure matters all that much in this context, as many want to pay 0% into what they believe is a different country.

The US analogy is abit flimsy here in the sense that many Catalans want self-determination. So to compare it to the US would mean that the democratic "US at home" v "US foreign affairs" imperial mindset gets somewhat blurred in how they would deal with a similar situation. I don't believe the US is a strong analogy in general anyway, seeing as their states are not culturally unique, with little indigenous history of being distinct.

On the merging of Castille and Aragon, I meant from the point of view of many Catalans. I don't believe many of them signed up to be subservient to Castille and Madrid, just as Ireland being trundled into the UK on the behest of a small minority carried little weight of legitimacy in the eyes of most.

marienbad wrote: »

The problem for the independence movement is that they have never had a majority for any period of time in favour of secession , and there is no getting round that

Seeing as they never suffered the same repression as somewhere like Ireland in general, many are/were just happy to get on with it. The same would have applied to Ireland had we been treated like equal partners in the UK. By the same token, if Catalonia was independent, the same people would have just been as happy to have got on with it too. It doesn't mean a new surge in nationalism should be less valid because they were indifferent beforehand, nor does it mean their cultural identity was less

marienbad wrote: »

Surely you can't be serious with this proposition ?

Well from the point of view of the Catalan government, if they really believed they are now independent, surely they should legitimately defend their territory?

An Ciarraioch

Latest quarterly poll published - link prompts download of PDF:

https://mobile.twitter.com/lizcastro/status/925353898906406913

seamus

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well from the point of view of the Catalan government, if they really believed they are now independent, surely they should legitimately defend their territory?

We're in something of a different era, where the notion of spilling blood for one's nation is only worthwhile if you're fighting for your life or your liberty.

This is not the case in Catalonia, and the government know this. They will neither get enough people to support their cause (read: die willingly), nor be remembered fondly for attempting to start a war against a benign "enemy".

Even if the Spanish are an "occupying force", the people of Catalonia would not be better off after they had ejected the Spanish by force.

To use the oft-quoted example: I'm sure you'd find plenty of Corkonians who'd support a declaration of independence for the PROC, but ask them to put their life on the line and their cough will soften a lot.

So they're going for the long-term plan, the diplomatic solution. Puigdemont obviously believes he has the momentum to carry him to a strong victory in December. And having won the referendum and with the Spanish being so heavy-handed, he might be right. Every electoral victory for independence parties is another step taken towards it.

The Golden Miller

seamus wrote: »

We're in something of a different era, where the notion of spilling blood for one's nation is only worthwhile if you're fighting for your life or your liberty.

This is not the case in Catalonia, and the government know this. They will neither get enough people to support their cause (read: die willingly), nor be remembered fondly for attempting to start a war against a benign "enemy".

Even if the Spanish are an "occupying force", the people of Catalonia would not be better off after they had ejected the Spanish by force.

To use the oft-quoted example: I'm sure you'd find plenty of Corkonians who'd support a declaration of independence for the PROC, but ask them to put their life on the line and their cough will soften a lot.

So they're going for the long-term plan, the diplomatic solution. Puigdemont obviously believes he has the momentum to carry him to a strong victory in December. And having won the referendum and with the Spanish being so heavy-handed, he might be right. Every electoral victory for independence parties is another step taken towards it.

If the territory of any nation is compromised by another, of course blood will be spilled and territory defended, even today.

I don't disagree with your assessment of how the Catalan movement is approaching the situation. And it now has become apparent it's a hopeless endeavor because they have no way of defending their territory.

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

If the territory of any nation is compromised by another, of course blood will be spilled and territory defended, even today.

I don't disagree with your assessment of how the Catalan movement is approaching the situation. And it now has become apparent it's a hopeless endeavor because they have no way of defending their territory.

Golden Miller you are not addressing the question of the lack of a majority for independence . How can such momentous steps be taken without such a majority ?

recedite

They wouldn't have had time to form an army, but they had a ready made regional police force in the Mossos d'Esquadra, which was a key player in events. Not just for what they did, but mainly for what they refused to do.
Puigdemont made a serious error in standing idly by while Madrid arrested and replaced key officers right under his nose. He should have appointed his own chief of police, in the name of the new republic.
The Mossos could then have provided some level of security for the Catalan govt.

And even if the Mossos were then ordered not to resist any incursions by national police or army (for the sake of avoiding injuries) Puigdemont could still have stayed and allowed himself to be arrested peacefully.
He can't now claim the high moral ground after running away and leaving a mess behind, no matter how hard he tries.

recedite

marienbad wrote: »

Golden Miller you are not addressing the question of the lack of a majority for independence . How can such momentous steps be taken without such a majority ?

Assuming you want to ignore the referendum result, have you got anything more up to date than this?....

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Latest quarterly poll published - link prompts download of PDF:
https://mobile.twitter.com/lizcastro/status/925353898906406913

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

Golden Miller you are not addressing the question of the lack of a majority for independence . How can such momentous steps be taken without such a majority ?

You cannot complain about a lack of majority, when you forcefully prevent the will of the majority from being known

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You cannot complain about a lack of majority, when you forcefully prevent the will of the majority from being known

I have answered your questions in good faith so can I ask than you do the same .

and there is a contradiction in your statement - how can you know what is the will of the majority ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

Assuming you want to ignore the referendum result, have you got anything more up to date than this?....

Have you got anything other than the referendum result which has been resoundingly discredited.

Challenge: Give 3 reasons why Catalonia should be independent and not one of them will hold up to fact or scrutiny.

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

I have answered your questions in good faith so can I ask than you do the same .

and there is a contradiction in your statement - how can you know what is the will of the majority ?

Sorry, will of the people. I have answered in good faith. I believe the Catalan people have the right to self-determination, and I believe they have exhausted all possible avenues other than jumping through hoops that were put in place for the very reason of preventing them from having the right to self-determination e.g. a Spanish wide referendum.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Sorry, will of the people. I have answered in good faith. I believe the Catalan people have the right to self-determination, and I believe they have exhausted all possible avenues other than jumping through hoops that were put in place for the very reason of preventing them from having the right to self-determination e.g. a Spanish wide referendum.

What right to self determination exactly are you referring to?

Even if that were applicable, what rights and freedoms do they get that they don't already have?

An Ciarraioch

marienbad wrote: »

I have answered your questions in good faith so can I ask than you do the same .

and there is a contradiction in your statement - how can you know what is the will of the majority ?

Given that a legal referendum is impossible, December 21st is the only barometer that can be used in that regard. What would be problematic thereby would be a repeat of 2015, in which neither option scores over 50%, and that seems a likely probability.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What right to self determination exactly are you referring to?

Even if that were applicable, what rights and freedoms do they get that they don't already have?

Independent membership of political and sporting organisations would appear the most practical benefits of sovereignty.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Have you got anything other than the referendum result which has been resoundingly discredited.

Challenge: Give 3 reasons why Catalonia should be independent and not one of them will hold up to fact or scrutiny.

In terms of cultural distinctiveness and economic viability, what makes Catalonia any less entitled to independence than, say, Slovakia or Croatia in 1990?

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

In terms of cultural distinctiveness and economic viability, what makes Catalonia any less entitled to independence than, say, Slovakia or Croatia in 1990?

Give me 3 reasons first and I'll tell you. C'mon just 3.

Calina

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

In terms of cultural distinctiveness and economic viability, what makes Catalonia any less entitled to independence than, say, Slovakia or Croatia in 1990?

IIRC, the divorce between Slovakia and Czechia was more or less amicable.

The disintegration of Yugoslavia led to a fairly violent war. I'm not sure "entitled" is the correct word here; it's just the way the things were after a lot of people got killed and tortured and the dust eventually settled.

But neither of these are reasons for Catalonia. Wanting something because someone else has it is not rational reasons. What can Catalonia do as an independent country that it cannot do now? The language isn't being repressed. The culture is not being repressed. Most political authority was devolved to the Catalonian government even in areas where I'd rather see centralised standards, eg education.

You know, mostly, I assumed that one of the key future things which would good look forward to was a slow regionalisation of of Europe and a recognition that lines of nation states would be come more fuzzy as major decisions could be made on a regional basis making it easier to do projects which now tend to be big international projects which are doubly complicated on account of the international aspect of things.

But a demand on the part of regions to be independent countries will completely scupper that. You may or may not see that as a good thing; but I don't think fragmentation is generally a good thing per se.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Calina wrote: »

IIRC, the divorce between Slovakia and Czechia was more or less amicable.

The disintegration of Yugoslavia led to a fairly violent war. I'm not sure "entitled" is the correct word here; it's just the way the things were after a lot of people got killed and tortured and the dust eventually settled.

But neither of these are reasons for Catalonia. Wanting something because someone else has it is not rational reasons. What can Catalonia do as an independent country that it cannot do now? The language isn't being repressed. The culture is not being repressed. Most political authority was devolved to the Catalonian government even in areas where I'd rather see centralised standards, eg education.

You know, mostly, I assumed that one of the key future things which would good look forward to was a slow regionalisation of of Europe and a recognition that lines of nation states would be come more fuzzy as major decisions could be made on a regional basis making it easier to do projects which now tend to be big international projects which are doubly complicated on account of the international aspect of things.

But a demand on the part of regions to be independent countries will completely scupper that. You may or may not see that as a good thing; but I don't think fragmentation is generally a good thing per se.

I've asked the same question numerous times and nobody can answer. What rights and freedoms would the people of Catalonia gain as an independent country that they don't already have.

George Sunsnow

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I've asked the same question numerous times and nobody can answer. What rights and freedoms would the people of Catalonia gain as an independent country that they don't already have.

Carlos Pudgemont on currency
Entry into at least the semi finals of the Eurovision Song Contest
A quick trade deal with the UK

josip

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I've asked the same question numerous times and nobody can answer. What rights and freedoms would the people of Catalonia gain as an independent country that they don't already have.

Do you come here just to ask questions?

recedite

Calina wrote: »

You know, mostly, I assumed that one of the key future things which would good look forward to was a slow regionalisation of of Europe and a recognition that lines of nation states would be come more fuzzy as major decisions could be made on a regional basis making it easier to do projects which now tend to be big international projects which are doubly complicated on account of the international aspect of things.

But a demand on the part of regions to be independent countries will completely scupper that. You may or may not see that as a good thing; but I don't think fragmentation is generally a good thing per se.

Interesting point, but arguably this is all part of the regionalisation of Europe, whereas Madrid asserting itself is part of "the national borders brigade" kicking back against the fuzziness.
In other words, the EC/EU could have shown more support (or at least less antipathy) to Catalonian independence. After all, they could still have been EU citizens, just occupying a fuzzy regional area between France and Spain.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I've asked the same question numerous times and nobody can answer. What rights and freedoms would the people of Catalonia gain as an independent country that they don't already have.

Its a constantly moving goalposts question. Do you mean compared to last week, before Article 155, or compared to next week, or compared to whatever conditions will exist after the next elections?
I'm guessing the chief of Mossos police might have to be selected or approved by Madrid in future. There may be a few other changes coming too.