Catalan independence referendum, 2017

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

...the EC/EU could have shown more support (or at least less antipathy) to Catalonian independence. After all, they could still have been EU citizens, just occupying a fuzzy regional area between France and Spain.

It takes quite the effort of wilful ignorance to think that the EU should have supported Catalan independence.

The EU consists of its member states. Spain is a member state. Catalonia is not a member state. Catalans are EU citizens by virtue of Spanish citizenship, and for no other reason.

Its a constantly moving goalposts question. Do you mean compared to last week, before Article 155, or compared to next week, or compared to whatever conditions will exist after the next elections?

Or you could just answer the question.

FrancieBrady

oscarBravo wrote: »

It takes quite the effort of wilful ignorance to think that the EU should have supported Catalan independence.

The EU consists of its member states. Spain is a member state. Catalonia is not a member state. Catalans are EU citizens by virtue of Spanish citizenship, and for no other reason. Or you could just answer the question.

IMO the EU should have been concerned enough about it's citizens to act as mediators.

recedite

oscarBravo wrote: »

The EU consists of its member states.

It takes a certain amount of wilful ignorance to say that the EU consists of states and not its people.
Especially when it frequently sanctions its member states for rights breaches against the people and also the environment within those states.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

It takes a certain amount of wilful ignorance to say that the EU consists of states and not its people.

Nope. Just a reading of the Treaties.

Especially when it frequently sanctions its member states for rights breaches against the people and also the environment within those states.

...as allowed for by the Treaties, which are agreements between the member states.

There's something of a free clue in all the Brexit coverage, if it helps: there's a lot of talk about the UK and the other 27 members of the EU. Not 500 million members of the EU; 28.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

IMO the EU should have been concerned enough about it's citizens to act as mediators.

Your opinion is something to which you are more than entitled, but mediating in internal disputes is not an EU competence.

An Ciarraioch

Nationalists would retain a majority as it stands, though Podemos and the Socialists would increase slightly, and the PP would fall:

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171031/encuesta-ceo-elecciones-cataluna-6392841

blanch152

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You cannot complain about a lack of majority, when you forcefully prevent the will of the majority from being known

Eh no, the democratic courts of Spain have ruled that the necessary democratic procedures to allow for a referendum have not been followed and that the referendum is illegal.

If you support the rule of law and the democratic principles enshrined in the Constitution of Spain, then you will agree that there was no forcefully preventing the will of the majority from being known.

An Ciarraioch

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh no, the democratic courts of Spain have ruled that the necessary democratic procedures to allow for a referendum have not been followed and that the referendum is illegal.

If you support the rule of law and the democratic principles enshrined in the Constitution of Spain, then you will agree that there was no forcefully preventing the will of the majority from being known.

Given that Podemos support a referendum, but not necessarily independence, can the will of the majority be accurately told by the upcoming election, as the poll suggests?

The Golden Miller

blanch152 wrote: »

Eh no, the democratic courts of Spain have ruled that the necessary democratic procedures to allow for a referendum have not been followed and that the referendum is illegal.

If you support the rule of law and the democratic principles enshrined in the Constitution of Spain, then you will agree that there was no forcefully preventing the will of the majority from being known.

No they do not. You are confounding a Spanish wide referendum as that of one for Catalonian self-determination

blanch152

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No they do not. You are confounding a Spanish wide referendum as that of one for Catalonian self-determination

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalan-independence-referendum-not-legal-spanish-constitution-european-commission-juncker-spain-law-a7978386.html


So it is just me and the European Commission who believe that the referendum is illegal.

An Ciarraioch

blanch152 wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalan-independence-referendum-not-legal-spanish-constitution-european-commission-juncker-spain-law-a7978386.html


So it is just me and the European Commission who believe that the referendum is illegal.

How can they obtain a legal one, though, if only one minor national party supports constitutional change?

The Golden Miller

blanch152 wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalan-independence-referendum-not-legal-spanish-constitution-european-commission-juncker-spain-law-a7978386.html


So it is just me and the European Commission who believe that the referendum is illegal.

I never said the vote they had wasn't illegal, I said Spanish "democratic procedures" do not allow for a referendum on self-determination

blanch152

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

How can they obtain a legal one, though, if only one minor national party supports constitutional change?

That is the democratic situation.

In a similar way, the People's Republic of Cork can't decide to have a referendum to split from the rest of Ireland without the democratic process allowing them to do so.

Just like there cannot be a referendum under the GFA just because Sinn Fein wants one, the democratic process has provided for it to be the decision of the Secretary of State.

Either we believe in the democratic rules and processes in Western democracies or we don't.

The Golden Miller

blanch152 wrote: »

That is the democratic situation.

In a similar way, the People's Republic of Cork can't decide to have a referendum to split from the rest of Ireland without the democratic process allowing them to do so.

Just like there cannot be a referendum under the GFA just because Sinn Fein wants one, the democratic process has provided for it to be the decision of the Secretary of State.

Either we believe in the democratic rules and processes in Western democracies or we don't.

Under the GFA, the area in question has the right to self-determination, Catalonia does not have this clause. Cork is not a distinct nation so why would it get a say on such a matter, or even want one? I believe in democracy, not a facade of democracy. The points you raised have been address numerous times, why willfully ignore the responses and continue to circle old ground?

blanch152

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I never said the vote they had wasn't illegal, I said Spanish "democratic procedures" do not allow for a referendum on self-determination

It appears you have changed your mind. What did you mean when you used the phrase "forcefully"?

The Golden Miller wrote: »

You cannot complain about a lack of majority, when you forcefully prevent the will of the majority from being known

The Golden Miller

blanch152 wrote: »

It appears you have changed your mind. What did you mean when you used the phrase "forcefully"?

As has been pointed out, the action of placing paper in a ballot box is not illegal.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

How can they obtain a legal one, though, if only one minor national party supports constitutional change?

There in is the answer to your question. That's how democratic institutions work. If the independence parties could at least get the parliamentary majority that's required then they would have a genuine greivanve but they can't even pass the required legislation in their own parliament so they just plough ahead and call a referendum anyway.

It's also interesting how those who are advocating Spanish independence were the same people who were jumping up and down when FG/Lab had a huge majority in the last Dail and could pass any legislation they wanted. The argument was that they were running roughshod over democracy. Well in this instance it's the much worse because the Catalonian government doesn't have the majority in their own parliament and are breaking the rules of their own Catalonian statutes.

johnp001

blanch152 wrote: »

That is the democratic situation.

In a similar way, the People's Republic of Cork can't decide to have a referendum to split from the rest of Ireland without the democratic process allowing them to do so.

Just like there cannot be a referendum under the GFA just because Sinn Fein wants one, the democratic process has provided for it to be the decision of the Secretary of State.

Either we believe in the democratic rules and processes in Western democracies or we don't.

The situation in Catalonia illustrates some of the complexities of democracy.

if a majority of the people in Catalonia want to form an independent state then what happens when (for example) a Spanish speaking minority in this new state feels they are not being treated equally by the new state and want to secede and form their own state? What happens when two factions emerge in this yet newer state and one wants to break away to free themselves from the oppression of the other?

Support for democracy could be seen the antithesis of support for minority rights as democracy is effectively the dictatorship of the majority.
The process of manoeuvering to become the majority in a specific area and then claiming that this particular area is objectively and uniquely indivisible based on a subjective interpretation of history is very common.
There may be very good reasons for supporting one side or another in any given secession movement but the consequence of supporting the right of a minority to secede from the oppression of a majority on principle is to come to the realisation that the smallest minority is the individual.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Under the GFA, the area in question has the right to self-determination, Catalonia does not have this clause. Cork is not a distinct nation so why would it get a say on such a matter, or even want one? I believe in democracy, not a facade of democracy. The points you raised have been address numerous times, why willfully ignore the responses and continue to circle old ground?

Catalonia is not a distinct nation, it was and has always been a part of Spain - it does not have a right to self determination.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The points you raised have been address numerous times, why willfully ignore the responses and continue to circle old ground?

This is exactly what you and others have been doing for the last 80 pages. None of the points you mentioned have been addressed, None! I've been screaming for examples of why Catalonia should be an independent country that other than the following excuses 4 weeks after the fact all of which have been resoundingly discredited, the mantra goes like this:

1. Referendum was a mandate for independence
2. Police brutality
3. Right to self determination

I've posted a challenge in a previous post which I will post again.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Challenge: Give 3 reasons why Catalonia should be independent and not one of them will hold up to fact or scrutiny.

An Ciarraioch

A nation is defined as a people with a common culture, language, religion, origins, ancestry or history - Catalonia certainly qualifies under both language and culture, and while people have cited Aragon as contentious in relation to history, the union of the two saw the count of Barcelona form the Aragonese ruling house, rather than a takeover by Zaragoza, so can claim a distinct history from Spain until the 1400s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

A nation is defined as a people with a common culture, language, religion, origins, ancestry or history - Catalonia certainly qualifies under both language and culture, and while people have cited Aragon as contentious in relation to history, the union of the two saw the count of Barcelona form the Aragonese ruling house, rather than a takeover by Zaragoza, so can claim a distinct history from Spain until the 1400s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

It never ceases to amaze me how people can make such ill informed posts and do it with such confidence when they've only read the information 5 minutes previously.

There is no contention in relation to true history of Aragon, only in the abodes of the guilty and the classrooms in Catalonia.

Is there any point at which you get tired of having your posts shot down only to scurry off to the dregs of the internet to find some half arsed theory on why Catalonia should be an independent country and then come back and regurgitate it on this thread?

Calina

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

A nation is defined as a people with a common culture, language, religion, origins, ancestry or history - Catalonia certainly qualifies under both language and culture, and while people have cited Aragon as contentious in relation to history, the union of the two saw the count of Barcelona form the Aragonese ruling house, rather than a takeover by Zaragoza, so can claim a distinct history from Spain until the 1400s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_state

I actually am not convinced by this.

First of all, if you look at wikipedia's actual page on nation here it is:

A people, or aggregation of men[sic - this should at this point mention humans ffs], existing in the form of an organized jural society, usually inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth, speaking the same language, using the same customs, possessing historic continuity, and distinguished from other like groups by their racial origin and characteristics, and generally, but not necessarily, living under the same government and sovereignty.

As far as independence is concerned, we're not talking about nationhood but statehood. Otherwise, Catalonia would not necessarily have to be looking for statehood to be a nation. And this is clear from the link you posted.

In casual usage, the terms "country", "nation", and "state" are often used as if they were synonymous; but in stricter usage they can be distinguished:

Country denotes a region of land defined by geographical features or political boundaries.
Nation denotes a people who are believed to or deemed to share common customs, religion, language, origins, ancestry or history. However, the adjectives national and international are frequently used to refer to matters pertaining to what are strictly sovereign states, as in national capital, international law.
State refers to the set of governing and supportive institutions that have sovereignty over a definite territory and population.
Sovereign states are legal persons.

Catalonia doesn't qualify as a state right now, whatever about its nationhood. It does not have sovereignty over a definite territory. To become a state, it needs to be recognised as such officially which if you read either the Nation or Sovereign State pages properly you'd know. It isn't solely dependent on what the aspiring independent state wants, no. No one has recognised Catalonia and no one will on the back of what the Catalonian independence movement did at the start of October.

v638sg7k1a92bx

According to Spanish prosecutors the ballot boxes for the Catalan referendum were bought on Alibaba :eek: - can't believe I missed that one.

recedite

Is buying on Alibaba an offence in Spain now?

A Dub in Glasgo

Only if the Madrid Government legislate against it and then we will never hear the end of the 'that was illegal' line

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

Is buying on Alibaba an offence in Spain now?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Only if the Madrid Government legislate against it and then we will never hear the end of the 'that was illegal' line

Do I really need to explain why that is significant?

No legal oversight
No tracking of ballot boxes
No tracking of ballot papers
No census
No voting list
Organisers camping out over night and having slumber parties in the polling stations

A Dub in Glasgo

You missed 'it was illegal' which is surprising

v638sg7k1a92bx

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You missed 'it was illegal' which is surprising

Still waiting on your reasons why Catalonina should be an independent country, you can't even come up with one :pac: :pac: :pac:

recedite

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Do I really need to explain why that is significant?

No legal oversight
No tracking of ballot boxes
No tracking of ballot papers
No census
No voting list
Organisers camping out over night and having slumber parties in the polling stations

We are talking about some plastic boxes. Would you have preferred if they were sourced in Aldi, or maybe in Woodies?
One persons "slumber party" is another person's "24 hour security and surveillance". You just wouldn't have been happy no matter what the arrangements were because, you know, "illegal".

seamus

recedite wrote: »

We are talking about some plastic boxes. Would you have preferred if they were sourced in Aldi, or maybe in Woodies?
One persons "slumber party" is another person's "24 hour security and surveillance". You just wouldn't have been happy no matter what the arrangements were because, you know, "illegal".

+1

In addition, those organising the referendum would likely have to have worked in a semi-covert nature. So source your supplies from well outside of any zone where the Spanish government may be able to interfere. Considering that they use violence to try and suppress voting, it seems the Catalans expected Spain to react oppressively to the ballot and so obviously worked to avoid detection.

I don't think there's any point in trying to "prove" the referendum wasn't wholly legitimate. It wasn't. But that also doesn't mean it's completely invalid either.

v638sg7k1a92bx

seamus wrote: »

+1

In addition, those organising the referendum would likely have to have worked in a semi-covert nature. So source your supplies from well outside of any zone where the Spanish government may be able to interfere. Considering that they use violence to try and suppress voting, it seems the Catalans expected Spain to react oppressively to the ballot and so obviously worked to avoid detection.

I don't think there's any point in trying to "prove" the referendum wasn't wholly legitimate. It wasn't. But that also doesn't mean it's completely invalid either.

It's wholly and exclusively invalid. There isn't a better examples of an invalid election in this history of elections.