Catalan independence referendum, 2017

feargale

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Where is the disdain exactly?

Are you serious?

v638sg7k1a92bx

feargale wrote: »

Are you serious?

Very serious. Can you please explain and give factual examples rather than emotional responses, and if you're going to cite police brutality that excuse is so flogged to death at this stage and so discredited I can't be bothered replying to your virtue signalling.

This is not the great civil rights struggle of our time, there is no oppression, repression, suppression or whatever the buzz word is that sounds cool on the left going on in Catalonia other than the pro Spanish majority of who have kept their heads down for the last 15 years for fear of being singled out, called a facist , losing their public service job or other reprisals. The noisy minority of people in Catalonia would not gain any more rights or freedoms that they don't already have as Spanish citizens.

James Brown

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Very serious. Can you please explain and give factual examples rather than emotional responses, and if you're going to cite police brutality that excuse is so flogged to death at this stage and so discredited I can't be bothered replying to your virtue signalling.

This is not the great civil rights struggle of our time, there is no oppression, repression, suppression or whatever the buzz word is that sounds cool on the left going on in Catalonia other than the pro Spanish majority of who have kept their heads down for the last 15 years for fear of being singled out, called a facist , losing their public service job or other reprisals. The noisy minority of people in Catalonia would not gain any more rights or freedoms that they don't already have as Spanish citizens.

If something factual is stated too much, it's no longer relevant?
Did you see the Firemen protecting protesters from the police? Did you see any of the coverage?
Great to see Dublin City Council vote to fly the Catalan flag. We might not like the results, but it's important to support the will of the people.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/committee-recommends-flying-catalan-flag-over-dublin-city-hall-1.3277666

v638sg7k1a92bx

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If something factual is stated too much, it's no longer relevant?
Did you see the Firemen protecting protesters from the police? Did you see any of the coverage?
Great to see Dublin City Council vote to fly the Catalan flag. We might not like the results, but it's important to support the will of the people.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/committee-recommends-flying-catalan-flag-over-dublin-city-hall-1.3277666

...and you if repeat the same lie it eventually becomes the truth.

The will of the people is to remain part of Spain, that is what you should be supporting not an attempted coup by a minority who couldn't pass a majority in their own parliament so attempted to run roughshod over their own Catalonian democratic institutions and hold a referendum anyway.

James Brown

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

...and you if repeat the same lie it eventually becomes the truth.

The will of the people is to remain part of Spain, that is what you should be supporting not an attempted coup by a minority who couldn't pass a majority in their own parliament so attempted to run roughshod over their own Catalonian democratic institutions and hold a referendum anyway.

Since when is a vote a coup?
I'll take the UN as a reliable source:

'Do not interfere with freedom' UN condemns Spain's violent crackdown on Catalan voters
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/860104/Catalonia-referendum-United-Nations-warning-crackdown-violence-Spain

Catalonia referendum: 90% voted for independence, say officials – as it happened
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live

I'm neither for nor against. I'm supporting democracy. Just because it doesn't suit the agenda of the status quo, doesn't make it illegal in my book. This is how societies progress. People see something they don't like and rally for change.

George Sunsnow

Have the European arrest warrants been issued yet?

Hector Savage

Another bad move by Spain, jailing these guys just makes the movement stronger.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Since when is a vote a coup?
I'll take the UN as a reliable source:

I'm neither for nor against. I'm supporting democracy. Just because it doesn't suit the agenda of the status quo, doesn't make it illegal in my book. This is how societies progress. People see something they don't like and rally for change.

Good thing we don't rely on your book as the rule of law in western deomcratic countries otherwise we would have minority organisations calling referendums anytime they didn't get enough votes for whatever country they are trying to create/breakup.

BTW, tt wasn't a vote to begin with, and when you have a minority of people who make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence to break up the country of Spain as we know it without any democratic mandate then yes, this can be considered a coup.

If you are "supporting democracy" then you should support the Spanish constitution that 90% of the Catalan people voted for.

Berwick

George Sunsnow wrote: »

Have the European arrest warrants been issued yet?

I hope  not!

FrancieBrady

Hector Savage wrote: »

Another bad move by Spain, jailing these guys just makes the movement stronger.

Seems singularly designed to give the next leadership of Catalunya the best platform for popularity they could get.
Well done Madrid...again.

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Seems singularly designed to give the next leadership of Catalunya the best platform for popularity they could get.
Well done Madrid...again.

Not judging by the million Spaniards who turned out to march a few days ago.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Not judging by the million Spaniards who turned out to march a few days ago.

Frankly, 6 or 10 million Spaniards marching are not going to solve the problem.

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Frankly, 6 or 10 million Spaniards marching are not going to solve the problem.

Correct, the constitution which those same people voted for will and is currently solving the problem.

James Brown

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Good thing we don't rely on your book as the rule of law in western deomcratic countries otherwise we would have minority organisations calling referendums anytime they didn't get enough votes for whatever country they are trying to create/breakup.

BTW, tt wasn't a vote to begin with, and when you have a minority of people who make a Unilateral Declaration of Independence to break up the country of Spain as we know it without any democratic mandate then yes, this can be considered a coup.

If you are "supporting democracy" then you should support the Spanish constitution that 90% of the Catalan people voted for.

Like a treaty result the status quo didn't like for example, have it again? We can't pick and choose, even if we write in laws saying we can, because those laws would be unjust and require protest. That's how things usually work in democracies.
BTW the police were bullying people trying to have their voice heard in a civil manner.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Correct, the constitution which those same people voted for will and is currently solving the problem.

I sincerely doubt that tbh. Staved it off maybe, solved nothing really.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Like a treaty result the status quo didn't like for example, have it again? We can't pick and choose, even if we right in laws saying we can, those laws would be unjust and require protest. That's how things usually work in democracies.

How things usually work in democracies is that you need a democratic majority to institute change. In the case of Catalonia, the indepes didn't have a majority so decided to break their own parliamentary rules not one but twice and then making a UDI.

That is definitely not how democracy works.

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I sincerely doubt that tbh. Staved it off maybe, solved nothing really.

What is the problem that you think needs solving?

James Brown

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

How things usually work in democracies is that you need a democratic majority to institute change. In the case of Catalonia, the indepes didn't have a majority so decided to break their own parliamentary rules not one but twice and then making a UDI.

That is definitely not how democracy works.

But what if the 'democratic' government of the day uses force to quell the voices of the people?

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

What is the problem that you think needs solving?

Unless the desire for Catalunya's independence has suddenly disappeared, then you still have a problem.

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unless the desire for Catalunya's independence has suddenly disappeared, then you still have a problem.

A minority of people in Catalonia.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

A minority of people in Catalonia.

Minorities can grow and majorities can fade. Just like the size of a problem either might pose.
Madrid has not found a way to solve this problem. They have found a way to deal with it, which may or may not be the right way. I suspect it is the wrong way.

A Dub in Glasgo

The current Spanish authorities must want the fracture of their country as the actions they have taken will do nothing to keep stability unless they indeed to back to the Iron fist type rule

v638sg7k1a92bx

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The current Spanish authorities must want the fracture of their country as the actions they have taken will do nothing to keep stability unless they indeed to back to the Iron fist type rule

I'm sure this would all make great material for the sequel to the communist manifesto but it has no bearing on reality. Spain is a modern European democracy whose citizens enjoy all the rights and freedoms that come with being a citizen of that country.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I'm sure this would all make great material for the sequel to the communist manifesto but it has no bearing on reality. Spain is a modern European democracy whose citizens enjoy all the rights and freedoms that come with being a citizen of that country.

Respectfully, when you are putting peaceful people in jail, your democracy has a problem.
The solution, so far, seems to be, put more people in jail.

CroFag

Peaceful people? Stirring division & sectarianism, excuse me, is far from peaceful.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Respectfully, when you are putting peaceful people in jail, your democracy has a problem.
The solution, so far, seems to be, put more people in jail.

What is your solution to the problem Francie ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Respectfully, when you are putting peaceful people in jail, your democracy has a problem.
The solution, so far, seems to be, put more people in jail.

CroFag wrote: »

Peaceful people? Stirring division & sectarianism, excuse me, is far from peaceful.

Thank you. Stoking nationalism, dividing people and dividing countries is not peaceful.

They attempted a coup, just because they didn't enter parliament with a balaclava or a gun does not mean they were acting peacefully.

James Brown

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Thank you. Stoking nationalism, dividing people and dividing countries is not peaceful.

They attempted a coup, just because they didn't enter parliament with a balaclava or a gun does not mean they were acting peacefully.

Just because you don't agree with someone, that doesn't make them violent.
Stoking nationalism is okay for going to war?
There's some hypocrisy here.

A referendum to separate is a coup on nobody. It's an attempt at separation.
Talk about stirring and hyperbole.

A Dub in Glasgo

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

y whose citizens enjoy all the rights and freedoms that come with being a citizen of that country.

Apart from citizens going out to put a cross on a piece of paper then you might get a smack in the head with a baton for your efforts :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Thank you. Stoking nationalism, dividing people and dividing countries is not peaceful.

They attempted a coup, just because they didn't enter parliament with a balaclava or a gun does not mean they were acting peacefully.

Would bludgeoning ordinary people trying to have a referendum be seen as 'divisive' in your playbook?


I don't have a solution BTW, the situation has gone too far now.
Earluer , my solution would have been to grant a referendum.