Catalan independence referendum, 2017

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

But it has been done unilaterally many times before, because "democracy" is an overstated term which manifests itself by generally being corrupted in some form or another, often favouring the ruling body funnily enough i.e Spain and Catalonia. "Democracy" in this instance is knowingly placing barriers which cannot be overcome, even if 100% of the population of Catalonia wanted independence. Democracy indeed!

Before Catalonia even get to that stage the independence surely as a minimum requirement should command a sizeable majority in their own State.

Do you accept that ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Scotland is a country in the sense it's a nation. The same can be applied to Catalonia.

We do not know if the minority or majority in Catalonia wants independence.

I do not care for the legal jargon in your posts. In a unilateral declaration of independence, they no longer see themselves as bound by the old rules. Catalonia is a nation, and as far as I'm concerned that is the only criteria that needs be for self-determination. Other than that, it's corrupted democracy preventing them from doing so. If it was left to the mechanisms and jargon of watered down fascists, no country would have ever been able to obtain independence. Catalonia are not going to play by those rules ultimately, so it's of no use constantly saying what they should have done

We do know that the majority of Catalans want to remain part of Spain, all the evidence from every recent poll and legitimate election say so, this has been kicked to death and again we circle back to old ground. I'm sorry if you don't like the facts but ultimately that is what counts and as a matter of international law you become a state when recognised by other states not by making a UDI.

Democracy is why we have peace in Europe. We are never going to be free of all problems but democracy is not the problem. It’s the best form of self governance we have. This Catalan BS is being man made into a nationalist movement – by enforcing the Catalan language onto every walk of life and instilling a Catalan ideology that never ever previously existed, the sooner Spain squash it the better.

Chips Lovell

Please don't personalise the debate. We'll issue cards if it continues

Thanks

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

We do know that the majority of Catalans want to remain part of Spain, all the evidence from every recent poll and legitimate election say so, this has been kicked to death and again we circle back to old ground. I'm sorry if you don't like the facts but ultimately that is what counts and as a matter of international law you become a state when recognised by other states not by making a UDI.

Democracy is why we have peace in Europe. We are never going to be free of all problems but democracy is not the problem. It’s the best form of self governance we have. This Catalan BS is being man made into a nationalist movement – by enforcing the Catalan language onto every walk of life and instilling a Catalan ideology that never ever previously existed, the sooner Spain squash it the better.

You want to 'squash it' and still get to claim Spain is a democracy?

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You want to 'squash it' and still get to claim Spain is a democracy?

I don't understand the co-relation you'll have to expand on your points a bit more.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I don't understand the co-relation you'll have to expand on your points a bit more.

How do you go about 'squashing' the Catalan language and 'ideology' (which I would call culture) that you pleaded with Spain to do?

v638sg7k1a92bx

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How do you go about 'squashing' the Catalan language and 'ideology' (which I would call culture) that you pleaded with Spain to do?

Can you expand on your points a bit more, the majority of your posts are one sentence statements that are difficult to decipher. Can you layout your points in a detailed post rather then posting multiple blurbs which are difficult to respond to.

FrancieBrady

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Can you expand on your points a bit more, the majority of your posts are one sentence statements that are difficult to decipher. Can you layout your points in a detailed post rather then posting multiple blurbs which are difficult to respond to.

You said the following:

This Catalan BS is being man made into a nationalist movement – by enforcing the Catalan language onto every walk of life and instilling a Catalan ideology that never ever previously existed, the sooner Spain squash it the better.

Can you tell us how you go about 'squashing' these things?

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

We do know that the majority of Catalans want to remain part of Spain, all the evidence from every recent poll and legitimate election say so, this has been kicked to death and again we circle back to old ground. I'm sorry if you don't like the facts but ultimately that is what counts and as a matter of international law you become a state when recognised by other states not by making a UDI.

Democracy is why we have peace in Europe. We are never going to be free of all problems but democracy is not the problem. It’s the best form of self governance we have. This Catalan BS is being man made into a nationalist movement – by enforcing the Catalan language onto every walk of life and instilling a Catalan ideology that never ever previously existed, the sooner Spain squash it the better.

Fact: Catalonia voted for Independence. Now you might not like this fact or doubt it's legitimacy but it is a fact nonetheless. The problem you seem to have is you don't understand the difference between fact and interpretation of fact. Spain seem to have the same problem. Now why do some mickey mouse polls carry weight in gauging the opinions of a nation and a vote doesn't? It has been kicked to death as you do not seem to be able to answer the question.

Democracy is the best form of self-governance in theory, but democracy is rarely uncorrupted. We seen this in Spain. Also, why shouldn't Catalan language be in every walk of life in Catalonia?

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

Before Catalonia even get to that stage the independence surely as a minimum requirement should command a sizeable majority in their own State.

Do you accept that ?

Maybe they do have that majority now? These questions are really only a side point to distract from the fundamental issue that no matter what Catalonia do, Spain will never allow them a fair chance of self-determination. So in that sense, the above question is mute anyway

Nody

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Fact: Catalonia voted for Independence. Now you might not like this fact or doubt it's legitimacy but it is a fact nonetheless.

And I just had a vote here in my house which declared me the supreme commander and president of Earth and I made a declaration accordingly; that vote carries as much weight as the Catalan vote in reality though.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Fact: Catalonia voted for Independence. Now you might not like this fact or doubt it's legitimacy but it is a fact nonetheless. The problem you seem to have is you don't understand the difference between fact and interpretation of fact. Spain seem to have the same problem. Now why do some mickey mouse polls carry weight in gauging the opinions of a nation and a vote doesn't? It has been kicked to death as you do not seem to be able to answer the question.

Democracy is the best form of self-governance in theory, but democracy is rarely uncorrupted. We seen this in Spain. Also, why shouldn't Catalan language be in every walk of life in Catalonia?

It takes quite the effort of willful ignorance to think that the Catalonia voted for independence. Even Puigdemont is not naive to this which is why he is currently hiding out in Belgium.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

It takes quite the effort of willful ignorance to think that the Catalonia voted for independence. Even Puigdemont is not naive to this which is why he is currently hiding out in Belgium.

But it is a fact that it actually happened and took place. Whether you or anyone else recognise the result is a different matter entirely. It's a fact it still happened. Half the problem on this thread, is your lack of comprehension as to what a fact actually is, and your selective acknowledgment and interpretation of certain facts

The Golden Miller

Nody wrote: »

And I just had a vote here in my house which declared me the supreme commander and president of Earth and I made a declaration accordingly; that vote carries as much weight as the Catalan vote in reality though.

A fact and the legitimacy it carries are two different matters. In this case, Spain afforded it some legitimacy/weight by acknowledging the fact it was taking place and by acting to prevent it

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

A fact and the legitimacy it carries are two different matters. In this case, Spain afforded it some legitimacy/weight by acknowledging the fact it was taking place and by acting to prevent it

A minority of Catalan society participated in a unilateral non biding and illegal vote. Catalonia did not vote for independence.

flaneur

I still think Spain is fanning the flames.

Calling the referendum may have been unconstitutional and all kinds of things but you don't respond by physically suppressing a vote, beating people up and now what will effectively be taking political prisoners.

What exactly does Spain want here ? To create the full narrative for a long teem problem.

If they had allowed the referendum a. It might not even have passed and b. They could have had the beginning or some kind of negotiated, grown up solution.

Instead I think you're looking into several future decades of serious political problems, radicalisation and hopefully they doesn't ever morph into violence.

The current central government couldn't have handled this any worse.

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

A minority of Catalan society participated in a unilateral non biding and illegal vote. Catalonia did not vote for independence.

No Catalonia and it's institutions engaged in the vote, hence why they are in trouble. A minority within Catalan society were actually able to tangibly vote, as per the suppression of the vote. It's quite clear that even if a majority don't want independence, a majority at least want the right to self-determination

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Maybe they do have that majority now? These questions are really only a side point to distract from the fundamental issue that no matter what Catalonia do, Spain will never allow them a fair chance of self-determination. So in that sense, the above question is mute anyway

And no matter what Spain or the majority in Catalonia want the independence movement will never give up on its goal .

So what ?

The is the nature of democracy , Unionists in the north can campaign for an independent Ulster , Unionists in the South can campaign to rejoin the Commonwealth and nutjobs in the Deep South can campaign to restore the Confederacy . As long as it is done within the law there is no issue .

That is the nature of our ever changing democratic instuitions , GB and Ireland voted to join the then EEC and now GB is leaving and we are the reverse .

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

And no matter what Spain or the majority in Catalonia want the independence movement will never give up on its goal .

So what ?

The is the nature of democracy , Unionists in the north can campaign for an independent Ulster , Unionists in the South can campaign to rejoin the Commonwealth and nutjobs in the Deep South can campaign to restore the Confederacy . As long as it is done within the law there is no issue .

That is the nature of our ever changing democratic instuitions , GB and Ireland voted to join the then EEC and now GB is leaving and we are the reverse .

There is no mechanism to prevent unionists in the south rejoining the UK if they became a majority in the south. Catalonia do not have this option, even if 100% want independence. Therein lies the difference, a difference you keep ignoring

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No Catalonia and it's institutions engaged in the vote, hence why they are in trouble. A minority within Catalan society were actually able to tangibly vote, as per the suppression of the vote. It's quite clear that even if a majority don't want independence, a majority at least want the right to self-determination

The Catalonian institutions did not engage in a vote as it was handed over to a group of volunteers. Catalonian institutions couldn't engage in a vote because the required parliamentary majority couldn't be achieved.

Wrong again. It is not clear a majority want a right to self determine when less than half of the census engaged in the vote but we can't even rely on those figures as there was no legally oversight.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

There is no mechanism to prevent unionists in the south rejoining the UK if they became a majority in the south. Catalonia do not have this option, even if 100% want independence. Therein lies the difference, a difference you keep ignoring

Wrong again. The means to achieve Catalonian independence already exists within the Spanish constitution but first they require a parliamentary majority in the the Catalan chamber.

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

There is no mechanism to prevent unionists in the south rejoining the UK if they became a majority in the south. Catalonia do not have this option, even if 100% want independence. Therein lies the difference, a difference you keep ignoring

As far as I am aware there is such a mechanism .

The Golden Miller

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

The Catalonian institutions did not engage in a vote as it was handed over to a group of volunteers. Catalonian institutions couldn't engage in a vote because the required parliamentary majority couldn't be achieved.

Wrong again. It is not clear a majority want a right to self determine when less than half of the census engaged in the vote but we can't even rely on those figures as there was no legally oversight.

The institutions, more specifically the parliament, ignored the 2/3rd rule and held a referendum anyway. So yes, it is a fact Catalonia voted on independence, regardless of whether it was legal or not. If you can not differentiate between fact and law, then it may not be worth my time continuing to engage in this nonsense.

So we can rely on vague polls to determine that Catalonia does not want independence, which is used interchangeably as a "fact" in your narrative, but when it comes to whether they want self-determination, we revert back to using the vote as a little bit of a measurement?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Wrong again. The means to achieve Catalonian independence already exists within the Spanish constitution but first they require a parliamentary majority in the the Catalan chamber.

No it doesn't, as that 2/3rds majority is only a precursor to a Spanish wide referendum. So Catalonia, under current rules, have no means of obtaining independence through self-determination. What is it you say, wrong again?

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

As far as I am aware there is such a mechanism .

No there isn't. The mechanism only provides for a Spanish wide referendum.

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

No there isn't. The mechanism only provides for a Spanish wide referendum.

Just because the challenge is great does not mean it is insurmountable .

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

There is no mechanism to prevent unionists in the south rejoining the UK if they became a majority in the south. Catalonia do not have this option, even if 100% want independence. Therein lies the difference, a difference you keep ignoring

Where is the mechanism for Spanish who want to rejoin Spain if they became a majority in Catalonia, oh wait, they are a majority. How does this work again?

The Golden Miller

marienbad wrote: »

Just because the challenge is great does not mean it is insurmountable .

That is not self-determination regardless. So there is no mechanism that allows for it

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Where is the mechanism for Spanish who want to rejoin Spain if they became a majority in Catalonia, oh wait, they are a majority. How does this work again?

The last opinion poll gave 48% in favour of independence, 43% against, and the rest either stating they would spoil their ballot, or wouldn't vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#Centre_for_Opinion_Studies

feargale

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why is it pro independence advocates always ask for sources when they never provide any themselves?

You asked for substantiation of disdain and you got it.

But You have pointedly ignored the following:

feargale wrote: »

Could we have an independent source for the allegation of intimidation of unionists?

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Scotland is a country, Catalonia is not. Both the referendums in Scotland and Canada were conducted in accordance with the rule of law in those countries. Catalonian referendum was both unconstitutional under Spanish law and also broke the rules of the Catalonian statutes of autonomy.

You being a self-appointed arbiter of nation status might be able to tell us what Scotland has that Catalonia doesn't have, apart from rugby and soccer teams. This business of individuals deciding what is a nation and what is not, of insisting we know better than the people affected, belongs to people wearing bright shirts in the 1930s. Madrid has shown no willingness to ascertain the will of Catalans or to respect it. If Madrid had totally rid itself of the shackles of francoism it would have kept a cool head and set in motion a mechanism similar to what was done in Scotland and Quebec. Instead it has planted a time bomb.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Self determination only applies to colonised people and people under apartheid regimes.

Really? Poland in 1919 was colonised??? At the same time Finland, Czechoslovakia etc..

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

As a matter of international law you only become a state when recognised by other states which is why your comparison to Ireland's fight for independence and the whole bases for your argument has just fallen to pieces

As a matter of morality other states stand aside while the issue is pending and respect the will of the people when that is established.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

NEXT!

"NEXT". WOW! That should send us all scuppering - in my erse! Divest yourself of the self-regarding, smartass smugness.

Now run along to your school debate.

marienbad

The Golden Miller wrote: »

That is not self-determination regardless. So there is no mechanism that allows for it

But you are doing what Unionists up north are doing , only recognising as valid in any vote the area where they thing they have the best chance of having a majority .

There is constitutional mechanisms and the rule of law in Spain and the Spanish state is not the monolith you seem to think it is . Catalonia has many friends and sympathisers both in other regions and other political parties so a constitutional solution is not beyond the realm of possibility