Catalan independence referendum, 2017

v638sg7k1a92bx

feargale wrote: »

You asked for substantiation of disdain and you got it.

But You have pointedly ignored the following:

You being a self-appointed arbiter of nation status might be able to tell us what Scotland has that Catalonia doesn't have, apart from rugby and soccer teams. This business of individuals deciding what is a nation and what is not, of insisting we know better than the people affected, belongs to people wearing bright shirts in the 1930s. Madrid has shown no willingness to ascertain the will of Catalans or to respect it. If Madrid had totally rid itself of the shackles of francoism it would have kept a cool head and set in motion a mechanism similar to what was done in Scotland and Quebec. Instead it has planted a time bomb.

Really? Poland in 1919 was colonised??? At the same time Finland, Czechoslovakia etc..

As a matter of morality other states stand aside while the issue is pending and respect the will of the people when that is established.

"NEXT". WOW! That should send us all scuppering - in my erse! Divest yourself of the self-regarding, smartass smugness.

Now run along to your school debate.

Before I answer, can you clarify that you are saying as a statement of fact Catalonia is an independent country?

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The institutions, more specifically the parliament, ignored the 2/3rd rule and held a referendum anyway. So yes, it is a fact Catalonia voted on independence, regardless of whether it was legal or not. If you can not differentiate between fact and law, then it may not be worth my time continuing to engage in this nonsense.

So we can rely on vague polls to determine that Catalonia does not want independence, which is used interchangeably as a "fact" in your narrative, but when it comes to whether they want self-determination, we revert back to using the vote as a little bit of a measurement?



No it doesn't, as that 2/3rds majority is only a precursor to a Spanish wide referendum. So Catalonia, under current rules, have no means of obtaining independence through self-determination. What is it you say, wrong again?

A yes vote to a Spanish wide referendum would allow Catalonia become an independent country just as an all island vote would be required to determine if Ireland was to be united. The means for an independent Catalonia already exists within the Spanish constitution.

v638sg7k1a92bx

The Golden Miller wrote: »

That is not self-determination regardless. So there is no mechanism that allows for it

Catalonia also has no grounds for self determination, they are and always have been Spanish. The constitution says they are Spanish, the international community says they are Spanish, the democratic population of Spain says they are Spanish, the European Union says they are Spanish, their passports say they are Spanish and most importantly I say they are Spanish.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

A yes vote to a Spanish wide referendum would allow Catalonia become an independent country just as an all island vote would be required to determine if Ireland was to be united. The means for an independent Catalonia already exists within the Spanish constitution.

What incentive would the rest of Spain have to vote for Catalan independence - by analogy, England would never approve Scottish independence, or Canada that of Quebec?

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

What incentive would the rest of Spain have to vote for Catalan independence - by analogy, England would never approve Scottish independence, or Canada that of Quebec?

Irrelevant. Why would Unionists be incentivised for voting in favour of a United Ireland? Why would FF voters be incentivised to vote for FG. I'm sure most politicians would prefer to run elections where only the people who agreed with them participated, just as they do in Catalonia, but that's not how how democratic institutions work and fortunately European democracies have these things called constitutions that ensure certain legal rights of their citizens. From they way you type you sound surprised that other people should even be consulted in the matter "vote, why would we let them vote? what is the incentive they are just going to disagree with us". That sounds like oppression and repressiveness to me. Did you learn nothing from last months referendum? You of all poster should be particularly cognisant of this especially since since you haven't been able to complete my 3 reasons challenge. :pac::pac::pac:

CroFag

Scotland is a country, Catalonia is not. Both the referendums in Scotland and Canada were conducted in accordance with the rule of law in those countries.

Catalonian referendum was both unconstitutional under Spanish law and also broke the rules of the Catalonian statutes of autonomy.

Self determination only applies to colonised people and people under apartheid regimes. As a matter of international law you only become a state when recognised by other states

@Celia Late Troop, well argumented, but it seams you have to repeat yourself over and over again.

Catalan ultra-nationalists like to make comparisons to Slovenia's (relatively peaceful) separation from Ex-Yugoslavia, but Slovenia & Croatia were federal republics who formed Yugoslavia and had a constitutional right to leave it.

A Dub in Glasgo

CroFag wrote: »

but it seams you have to repeat yourself over and over again.

Oh, don't we know... illegal... illegal... illegal

Water John

Colm Tobin has another very good article on Catalan Independence. Colm has long connection with Catalonia and gives a very good insight.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/nov/03/colm-toibin-catalonia-independent-state-point-of-view

He simply asks, at the end, who would be damaged by allowing Independence?

An Ciarraioch

CroFag wrote: »

@Tickers, well argumented, but it seams you have to repeat yourself over and over again.

Catalan ultra-nationalists like to make comparisons to Slovenia's (relatively peaceful) separation from Ex-Yugoslavia, but Slovenia & Croatia were federal republics who formed Yugoslavia and had a constitutional right to leave it.

Then why did the federal Yugoslav army invade both countries when they attempted to make good on that right? Technically, the republics of the USSR also had the right to secession, but any display of nationalism was repressed until Gorbachev's reforms.

The Croatian Spring movement is worth a mention here also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Spring

oscarBravo

Water John wrote: »

He simply asks, at the end, who would be damaged by allowing Independence?

I would have thought the answer so self-evident as to render the question a bit of a silly one: Spain, of course, along with anyone in Catalonia who wants to remain part of Spain.

I still don't recall seeing an answer to the question: what exactly would Catalonia get from independence that it doesn't currently have, and is it truly worth it?

View

Water John wrote: »

He simply asks, at the end, who would be damaged by allowing Independence?

Catalonia would be the one to suffer most. If everyone in the EU decides that Catalonia is now independent, then it is out of the EU/EEA, and suffers “Instant Brexit shock”. That means a hard border as it’s out of the EU Single Market/Customs Union, out of Schengen (and by default it’s people would need visas for travel & business) and its an unattached external country using the Euro which would leave it open to a major financial exodus.

An Ciarraioch

Sizeable demonstration in Bilbao today (35,000), despite the PNV's absence:

http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/MINUTO-Diada_13_685361458.html

Water John

'View', if you had read the Tobin article you would know that, Catalans are very pro European so the reality of them being isolated is not realistic.
Similarily, I don't think they believe, independence is worth, one drop of blood.

View

Water John wrote: »

'View', if you had read the Tobin article you would know that, Catalans are very pro European so the reality of them being isolated is not realistic.
Similarily, I don't think they believe, independence is worth, one drop of blood.

It’s not a question of whether they are pro European or not. As was discussed in the Scottish referendum, the default position is that a new nation, which gains independence from an existing member nation, is not an EU member and must apply from scratch to join the EU should it wish to be a member.

That means that any such new nations are by default non-members and that the member nations of the EU must treat than as such and apply tariffs, customs/border controls etc to that new nation.

feargale

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Catalonia also has no grounds for self determination, they are and always have been Spanish. The constitution says they are Spanish, the international community says they are Spanish, the democratic population of Spain says they are Spanish, the European Union says they are Spanish, their passports say they are Spanish and most importantly I say they are Spanish.

I suppose when you're called out you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Before I answer, can you clarify that you are saying as a statement of fact Catalonia is an independent country?

How can Catalonia be independent when most of the members of the its executive are in jail? You may as well ask me was Denmark independent in 1942. Methinks you are losing your equilibrium, such as it is.

Water John

When needs be, all previous positions can be found to be flexible. If Scotland finds a way to stay in the EU Brexit fallout, no doubt it would be facillitated.

FrancieBrady

If independence were achieved Spain and Catalonia would have to get on.
It would make no sense whatsoever for either of them for one not to be in the EU.
A bit like the Irish situation with Brexit. It makes no sense for NI to be outside the EU.
A deal would be done, sooner rather than later

v638sg7k1a92bx

feargale wrote: »

I suppose when you're called out you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.



How can Catalonia be independent when most of the members of the its executive are in jail? You may as well ask me was Denmark independent in 1942. Methinks you are losing your equilibrium, such as it is.

Called out on what exactly? I've nailed my colours to the mast I think it's obvious where I stand, you're talking about Denmark in 1942...

Methinks you made a silly comment and are trying to discuss anything other than the merits of Catalonian independence because you have difficulty in coming up with cogent arguments.

Drakus

What a Lowlife that Puigdemont is, showing his true colors now. He kicked this whole thing off and while his budies are in jail in Spain for something they at least believe in he legs it to Belgium to hide behind Belgium Law. If he had the courage of his convictions he would go back to Spain and stand up for his beliefs.

Inquitus

Drakus wrote: »

What a Lowlife that Puigdemont is, showing his true colors now. He kicked this whole thing off and while his budies are in jail in Spain for something they at least believe in he legs it to Belgium to hide behind Belgium Law. If he had the courage of his convictions he would go back to Spain and stand up for his beliefs.

Have a mate from Belgium who recons they won't extradite, based on whats being said by local experts , previous Judiciary etc.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Water John wrote: »

Colm Tobin has another very good article on Catalan Independence. Colm has long connection with Catalonia and gives a very good insight.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/nov/03/colm-toibin-catalonia-independent-state-point-of-view

He simply asks, at the end, who would be damaged by allowing Independence?

It's a fairly one sided article. Just read his fawning over Puidgemont

He speaks five languages, is pro-European. His aura is self-deprecating, modest; his tone when he speaks is rational and clear. He is not a demagogue. On the night when independence was declared, for example, he could easily have come out on to the balcony of Palau de la Generalitat, where Tarradellas had once stood, and made a rousing speech. Instead, he slipped out of the building and went home to Girona.

Brendan Bendar

Drakus wrote: »

What a Lowlife that Puigdemont is, showing his true colors now. He kicked this whole thing off and while his budies are in jail in Spain for something they at least believe in he legs it to Belgium to hide behind Belgium Law. If he had the courage of his convictions he would go back to Spain and stand up for his beliefs.

Bit like the Brexit lads in the U K

Put a match to the barrel of petrol and then piss off when the huge fire starts.

Leave others to sort out their mistakes.

An Ciarraioch

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Bit like the Brexit lads in the U K

Put a match to the barrel of petrol and then piss off when the huge fire starts.

Leave others to sort out their mistakes.

I don't agree with the strategy, but it would have been agreed by the cabinet last Sunday/Monday, rather than him literally doing a solo run.

Brendan Bendar

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

I don't agree with the strategy, but it would have been agreed by the cabinet last Sunday/Monday, rather than him literally doing a solo run.

Ah.. Ok were you there?

At the cabinet meeting, or just surmising?

recedite

I doubt they had it all planned that some would be jailed, and some would carry on the resistance in exile. I'd say it was a lot more chaotic in the end, with some panicking and fleeing, while others chose to stay and take their chances.

If only they had been reading this thread, they might have picked up some useful advice two weeks ago :pac:

FrancieBrady

Are the exiles shipping any criticism from colleagues/public in Catalonia?

An Ciarraioch

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Ah.. Ok were you there?

At the cabinet meeting, or just surmising?

Going by the reports in the Spanish press when he showed up, it seems they were dispatched to canvass the EU, which proved both naive and unproductive, but like Dev's US fundraising trip, it would have required a collective go-ahead, presumably.

An Ciarraioch

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are the exiles shipping any criticism from colleagues/public in Catalonia?

All are in PdeCat, which was struggling in polls anyway, but the government as a whole appears to be largely unaffected:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171105/432613194444/sondeo-gad3-la-vanguardia-elecciones-21-diciembre-parlament-catalunya.html

An Ciarraioch

Puigdemont and Co released, must remain in Belgium for duration of EAW process.

An Ciarraioch

Perhaps Puigdemont wouldn't have been in a position to write op-eds, had he been arrested, which might be one mitigating factor:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/06/carles-puigdemont-catalonia-democracy-spain-catalans