Catalan independence referendum, 2017

An Ciarraioch

Jordi Sanchez becomes the number two on Puigdemont's list, which should make the intra-nationalist contest more even:

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171116/432920513605/jordi-sanchez-junts-per-catalunya-elecciones-cataluna-21d-carles-puigdemont-numero-2.html

Samaris

recedite wrote: »

Barcelona, the Euro or a Catalan euro pegged to the euro, little or none at first, and tax revenues.

On this last point, If Madrid cut off funding during the transitional period, they could instruct Catalan residents to redirect all tax revenues to Barcelona.

If hypothetical independent Catalonia is not in the EU, who is guarenteeing the integrity of "a Catalan euro" (whatever that is). How is it controlled, or even recognised? What happens when ebb and flow of people ends up with too much (unrecognised) coinage inside or outside of the region? They cannot press more euros, even ones with nice Catalan pictures on. If Catalonia has no right to use the currency (and, no longer being Eurozone, they would not be), it rather sounds like a massive currency theft that I rather suspect the Eurozone would object mightily to. Euro coins like any other currency are so much scrap metal without the guarentee behind them. Catalonia would have no right or authoritee to ascribe Eurozone guarentees to a "Catalan euro" and have no authority to claim a Catalonian guarentee on what amounts to someone else's currency.

recedite

The US dollar is commonly used as cash by people in countries outside the US.
Caribbean islands commonly print their own currency but peg to the US dollar because it simplifies matters and keeps things predictable and stable.
No point in going off topic here, but suffice it to say that it is doable.
Any govt. with the power to raise tax revenue from a population of citizens can manage a currency.

BTW early in this thread we discussed the matter of whether independent Catalonia would still be in the EU as a successor state, similar to Czech and Slovakia, and there is no definite answer to that.
At the end of the day, it would depend on whether they were wanted. Obviously if they were still in the EU, or until they were thrown out, the currency issue wouldn't even arise.

paddy_murphy

I reckon the euros already in circulation will continuing flowing in the same way they are doing now. Essentially, a new currency (peseta 2.0?) should be created for the new Catalan state. This is why a lot of people reckoned the DUI was not going steady: they were not preparing the economical structure for the new state. Some voices even pointed the BTC...

An Ciarraioch

Pick your poll of choice, and you'll find a result to suit:

http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-constitucionalistas-suben-hasta-ocho-escanos-parlamento-catalan-201711190158_noticia.html

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20171119/encuesta-elecciones-cataluna-2017-6434537

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

BTW early in this thread we discussed the matter of whether independent Catalonia would still be in the EU as a successor state, similar to Czech and Slovakia, and there is no definite answer to that.

Well, there's one definite answer: it's not similar to the Czech and Slovak situation. Czechoslovakia split up in 1993, and the resulting separate countries both joined the EU in 2004. There was no successor state to still be in the EU, because Czechoslovakia was never in the EU.

recedite

Czechslovakia was not in the EU, but it was in the UN and it was a party to numerous and various international treaties. So when it ceased to exist as a unitary state, they faced similar legal issues to the Spain/Catalonia break-up.
The main point is that both Czechia and Slovakia became successor states. Neither tried to claim that it was the sole successor and inheritor of all previous treaties and memberships.
Every other country then accepted that, as it was in nobody's interest to dispute it.

Neither the Czech Republic nor Slovakia sought recognition as the sole successor state to Czechoslovakia. This can be contrasted to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, where the Russian Federation was recognized as successor state to not only the RSFSR but the USSR itself. Therefore, Czechoslovakia's membership in the UN ceased upon dissolution of the country, but on 19 January 1993 the Czech and Slovak Republics were admitted to the UN as new and separate states.
With respect to other international treaties the Czechs and Slovaks agreed to honour the treaty obligations of Czechoslovakia. The Slovaks transmitted a letter to the Secretary General of the United Nations on 19 May 1993 expressing their intent to remain a party to all treaties signed and ratified by Czechoslovakia, and to ratify those treaties signed but not ratified before dissolution of Czechoslovakia. This letter acknowledged that under international law all treaties signed and ratified by Czechoslovakia would remain in force. For example, both countries are recognized as signatories of the Antarctic Treaty from the date Czechoslovakia signed the agreement in 1962.
Both the Czech and Slovak Republics have ratified the Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties. However, it was not a factor in the dissolution of Czechoslovakia since it did not enter into force until 1996.

wiki

bertie 56

In case you've missed this one ( no much report in English spoken news )

Pretty scary to see the level of ignorance of the Spanish Minister of Defence .( 100 years anniversary of the Latvian Republic, for a start ... )

https://sputniknews.com/viral/201711181059222239-puigdemont-moscow-spy-chippolino/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOIgG-n3YII

First Up

bertie 56 wrote:

Pretty scary to see the level of ignorance of the Spanish Minister of Defence .( 100 years anniversary of the Latvian Republic, for a start ... )

Not the first (or last) to fall for a prank but what did she get so wrong about Latvia?

robp

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

bertie 56 wrote: »

Pretty poor objective coverage of the Catalonia crisis from the Irish Times :
2 big articles about unionist demonstrations , NONE about the independentist huge one of two days ago ( between 750.000 to 1.6 Million in Barcelona )
I was hoping more objectivity from the Irish Times, to be honest....

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Much the same in the Irish Examiner - a big spread two weeks ago, whereas on Monday, they only mentioned Rajoy's address to the local PP branch!

The independence movement has has lost it's newsworthiness and has been exposed for the failed coup that it was. Last month you'd be forgiven for thinking this was the human rights struggle of our time based on how events were being reported.  

The movement has lost. It was badly managed, badly led and now it has been out-manoeuvred. The leadership overplayed their hand and forced Madrid into a position where it cannot be seen to be negotiating and they've forced actual countries within the larger EU project to pick sides at a time when Brexit means national governments can only afford to declare loyalty to the other member states.

The coming elections will finish the movement off.

I am afraid you know nothing of Iberian history. There has many many periods when Catalonia was independent and there was six Catalan Republics. The independence movement never was absent and it is not going away. Catalonia being independent is less of a historical oddity than Ireland being independent.

robp

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

bertie 56 wrote: »

" The coming elections will finish the movement off. "

I don't think it will, to be honest .It's just the continuation of a 30 years fight .
But it won't change much, even if the pro-inde get the majority .
That will be 155 again, as Spain warned .
The only hope I can see is if PSOE is in power nationally in the next elections : they are more prone to negotiate and change things that PP.
Second scenario : Puigdemont is put in jail, massive civil movement ( which I doubt ), Spain send the tanks ( which I don't hope ! ) , and EU/ the international community put his nose in the conflict.

The key of all this is the Spanish constitution : without changes there, Catalonia will go nowhere close to the " legal " independence.

There is no 30 year fight. This is a man made nationalist movement, an ideological architecture forcing the Catalan language into every walk of life and instilling a Catalan ideology that never previously existed.

You're correct that this ultimately comes down to the Spanish constitution which 90% of the people of Catalonia voted in favour of.

To say the destiny of Catalonia is set in stone based on a vote 39 years ago when they didn't even have a choice is absurd. The idea that a nationalist movement could be 'a man made' or natural is outlandish. Spain may be monarchy but its laws have to serve the people. Rajoy's 'no, it's illegal' strategy is destroying the PP's credibility as a party.

An Ciarraioch

It seems Madrid could offer Catalonia the same financial deal as the Basque Country, but unclear why it would require a referendum, when the latter pact didn't?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/21/spain-ready-to-discuss-greater-fiscal-autonomy-for-catalonia#img-1

v638sg7k1a92bx

robp wrote: »

I am afraid you know nothing of Iberian history. There has many many periods when Catalonia was independent and there was six Catalan Republics. The independence movement never was absent and it is not going away. Catalonia being independent is less of a historical oddity than Ireland being independent.

Clutching at straws by going back over 500 years, we may aswell go back to Greek and Roman history while we're at it. It appears the independence movement wants to set the clock back to when it suits them.

Catalonia has always been a part of the country of Spain as we know it where Catalonian is considered part of Spanish culture as opposed to being separate from it. The current independence movement is trying to instill an ideology that never previously existed. For example, in schools in Catalonia they teach the kids that the Ebro river rises in a "foreign land". It is also very difficult to study in Spanish, despite the fact that repeated rulings have recognised the right to be educated in Spanish, imagine the outrage if this was the other way around. Also, in Catalonia you can’t name a store with a Spanish only name, you have to give it a Catalonian name otherwise you will be fined.

v638sg7k1a92bx

robp wrote: »

To say the destiny of Catalonia is set in stone based on a vote 39 years ago when they didn't even have a choice is absurd. The idea that a nationalist movement could be 'a man made' or natural is outlandish. Spain may be monarchy but its laws have to serve the people. Rajoy's 'no, it's illegal' strategy is destroying the PP's credibility as a party.

Again trying to set the clock back to when it suits you. Our constitution is effective since 1937 which is 40 years older than the Spanish constitution. The Spanish constitution is younger than Ireland, France, Italy and Germany. It is also the rule of law in Spain, the citizens eligible to vote had a binary choice of Yes or No and they voted overwhelmingly in favour. What part of that do you have a problem with?

robp

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

robp wrote: »

I am afraid you know nothing of Iberian history. There has many many periods when Catalonia was independent and there was six Catalan Republics. The independence movement never was absent and it is not going away. Catalonia being independent is less of a historical oddity than Ireland being independent.

Clutching at straws by going back over 500 years, we may aswell go back to Greek and Roman history while we're at it. It appears the independence movement wants to set the clock back to when it suits them.

Catalonia has always been a part of the country of Spain as we know it where Catalonian is considered part of Spanish culture as opposed to being separate from it. The current independence movement is trying to instill an ideology that never previously existed. For example, in schools in Catalonia they teach the kids that the Ebro river rises in a "foreign land". It is also very difficult to study in Spanish, despite the fact that repeated rulings have recognised the right to be educated in Spanish, imagine the outrage if this was the other way around. Also, in Catalonia you can’t name a store with a Spanish only name, you have to give it a Catalonian name otherwise you will be fined.

You cannot argue that Catalan identity has no roots and then claim the past is irrelevant. Catalonia was not always part of the country of Spain, as the country of Spain is only 200-300 years old. It has always been a patchwork of cultures with varying local identities. Some became independent (i.e. Portugeal) and others didn't. Catalonia was long part of the sphere of influence of Spain but the western half of Poland and all of Czech Republic was no less dominated by German influence yet you don't argue that Prague should be German controlled. Also London's influence on Ireland is probably far more substantial than Madrid's on Catalonia.
Ultimately national borders are man-made and serve people's desire for identity. If they no longer are desired they should be removed. If they are immovable then we all are slaves to history.

v638sg7k1a92bx

robp wrote: »

You cannot argue that Catalan identity has no roots and then claim the past is irrelevant. Catalonia was not always part of the country of Spain, as the country of Spain is only 200-300 years old. It has always been a patchwork of cultures with varying local identities. Some became independent (i.e. Portugeal) and others didn't. Catalonia was long part of the sphere of influence of Spain but the western half of Poland and all of Czech Republic was no less dominated by German influence yet you don't argue that Prague should be German controlled. Also London's influence on Ireland is probably far more substantial than Madrid's on Catalonia.
Ultimately national borders are man-made and serve people's desire for identity. If they no longer are desired they should be removed. If they are immovable then we all are slaves to history.

You cannot argue that borders are man made and then say you're in favour of creating another. The only slave to history is you by claiming that Catalonia was never part of Spain and that the country of Spain is only 200 years old. The borders of Spain have not changed since 1492 with the possible exception of Ceuta and Melilla.

This entire thread begs the question as to what stage does the truth not matter to some people? To suggest that the country of Spain is only 200 years old is a gross misstatement of facts. How can we be expected to engage in a serious type of debate when these are objectionable facts that pro independence posters just choose to ignore and loop round to the same points old points?

I get the impression that many of the posters here have a bf/gf from Barcelona, have spent a summer there and still have friends that they're in contact with or are sunny day Barca fans being fed the same misinformation that they are teaching in the schools in Catalonia.

Fr Tod Umptious

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You cannot argue that borders are man made and then say you're in favour of creating another. The only slave to history is you by claiming that Catalonia was never part of Spain and that the country of Spain is only 200 years old? The borders of Spain have not changed since 1492 with the possible exception of Ceuta and Melilla.

This entire thread begs the question as to what stage does the truth not matter to some people? To suggest that the country of Spain is only 200 years old is a gross misstatement of facts. How can we be expected to engage in a serious type of debate when these are objectionable facts that pro independence posters just choose to ignore and loop round to the same points old points?

I get the impression that many of the posters here have a bf/gf from Barcelona, have spent a summer there and still have friends that they're in contact with or are sunny day Barca fans being fed the same misinformation that they are teaching in the schools in Catalonia.

I also think that the people here who support Catalan independence are the same who supported Scottish independence and would also like to see a united Ireland. The idea of some sort of "independence" regardless of the facts is always the best option for them, it's their political ideology.

Ironically these are people that tell us that borders are good, in Catalonia and Scotland, and that borders are bad, in Ireland.

marienbad

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

[/B]

Ironically these are people that tell us that borders are good, in Catalonia and Scotland, and that borders are bad, in Ireland.

+1 , this contradiction has been running throughout the whole thread . And ignoring all the clichés supporting Catalan independence , ethic difference ,separate language , unique history ,that if applied to N.I would would guarantee independence . And they can even add a few more - long standing majority and different religion .

recedite

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I also think that the people here who support Catalan independence are the same who supported Scottish independence and would also like to see a united Ireland. The idea of some sort of "independence" regardless of the facts is always the best option for them, it's their political ideology.

Ironically these are people that tell us that borders are good, in Catalonia and Scotland, and that borders are bad, in Ireland.

Really?

recedite wrote: »

There's no hard and fast rule about it, but IMO any region which is large enough for an independent existence, has a particular or unique culture, and consults it's people via a referendum (well flagged and well discussed over a reasonable period of time) has the right to self-determination.
I'd also be inclined to specify a 55-60% or more majority should be necessary for a change of sovereignty, regardless of voter turnout, otherwise you could have the issue swinging back and forth every few years.

Size and population wise, I'd put the minimum requirement roughly at the size of a province or an oblast. That would include N. Ireland, Kosovo, Crimea, and of course Catalonia.

Maybe you should just concentrate on giving your own opinion instead of trying to put words in other people's mouths.

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

Really?


Maybe you should just concentrate on giving your own opinion instead of trying to put words in other people's mouths.

Maybe you should give us one reason why Catalonia should be an independent country.

Nobody has been able to explain what Catalonia would gain by separating from Spain, what rights will they gain that they don't already have?

recedite

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Maybe you should give us one reason why Catalonia should be an independent country.

Nobody has been able to explain what Catalonia would gain by separating from Spain, what rights will they gain that they don't already have?

Why should I? I'm Irish. They want what they want. I merely observe the happenings over there, and throw in the odd comment.

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

Why should I? I'm Irish. They want what they want. I merely observe the happenings over there, and throw in the odd comment.

"They want what they want"

I'm convinced, we can recognise Catalonia as an independent country and close the thread.

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Maybe you should give us one reason why Catalonia should be an independent country.

Nobody has been able to explain what Catalonia would gain by separating from Spain, what rights will they gain that they don't already have?

Complete control over political and economic sovereignty, including justice, defence and foreign affairs.

oscarBravo

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Complete control over political and economic sovereignty, including justice, defence and foreign affairs.

So they don't want to be in the EU?

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Complete control over political and economic sovereignty, including justice, defence and foreign affairs.

BREXIT

An Ciarraioch

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

BREXIT

Hardly - for one thing, EU members voluntarily decide which aspects of national sovereignty they agree to pool, hence why Poland, Czechia and Sweden have never joined the euro.

v638sg7k1a92bx

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Hardly - for one thing, EU members voluntarily decide which aspects of national sovereignty they agree to pool, hence why Poland, Czechia and Sweden have never joined the euro.

On this page alone we have one separatist claiming that Spain is only 200 years old and another stating that EU members get to pick and choose what resources they pool as part of EU membership.

The independence movement in Catalonia has thrown in the towel I think it's time they did the same on this thread.

Brendan Bendar

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

On this page alone we have one separatist claiming that Spain is only 200 years old and another stating that EU members get to pick and choose what resources they pool as part of EU membership.

The independence movement in Catalonia has thrown in the towel I think it's time they did the same on this thread.

Yes, would agree with this view.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Maybe you should give us one reason why Catalonia should be an independent country.

Nobody has been able to explain what Catalonia would gain by separating from Spain, what rights will they gain that they don't already have?

Same reasons you had when you said " Bye " to Mummy when you left the nest ...
Or your wife....
or your boss ....


More seriously , an exemple :
https://videosenglish.telesurtv.net/video/689625/the-spanish-government-still-loves-its-fascist-dictator/

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Same reasons you had when you said " Bye " to Mummy when you left the nest ...
Or your wife....
or your boss ....


More seriously , an exemple :
https://videosenglish.telesurtv.net/video/689625/the-spanish-government-still-loves-its-fascist-dictator/

I saw the words "facist-dictator" in your link and didn't bother opening it.