Catalan independence referendum, 2017

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I saw the words "facist-dictator" in your link and didn't bother opening it.

Pity, you could have learn something, maybe....
Anyway, the link talk about Franco , wasn't he a " fascist - dictator ?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Pity, you could have learn something, maybe....
Anyway, the link talk about Franco , wasn't he a " fascist - dictator ?

You can start that conversation in another thread if you want to change the topic but still not a reason for Catalonian Independence.

Again, independence movement likes to throw the facist word around and mention Franco as much as possible because they have no cogent argument for independence.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You can start that conversation in another thread if you want to change the topic but still not a reason for Catalonian Independence.

Again, independence movement likes to throw the facist word around and mention Franco as much as possible because they have no cogent argument for independence.

I don't think there is a conversation to start about this precise subject . It is admitted by historians that F.Franco was a dictator and ruled his country in a fascist way . Only revisionists says the opposite. So no much to talk about this, really...

And if now this " fascist " subject goes out often , there is reasons :
- Catalonia did suffer more than the average from fascism . Just remember that the Catalonia President was tortured and executed during these dark times, for example.
- What happens now in Catalonia is softer, of course, comparing to what has happens in the past. Still, how not to see fascism when you see :
- democratic rights denied
- military forces beating up peaceful civilians , with use of prohibited weapon
- censorship
- political prisoners
- media disinformation
- pressure/bribe on other countries not to interfere

So, OK, "fascism" might not be a valid argument for you when talking about independence , but it is more than a valid one for the majority of Catalans.

And don't worry, independentists do have arguments for the independence.
Don't take the Catalans for " tontos ". You don't have 2M+ people voting for someone just for his nice hair cut...
Just read their program...
It might not suits your point of view and that is fine, I can understand that.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

I don't think there is a conversation to start about this precise subject . It is admitted by historians that F.Franco was a dictator and ruled his country in a fascist way . Only revisionists says the opposite. So no much to talk about this, really...

And if now this " fascist " subject goes out often , there is reasons :
- Catalonia did suffer more than the average from fascism . Just remember that the Catalonia President was tortured and executed during these dark times, for example.
- What happens now in Catalonia is softer, of course, comparing to what has happens in the past. Still, how not to see fascism when you see :
- democratic rights denied
- military forces beating up peaceful civilians , with use of prohibited weapon
- censorship
- political prisoners
- media disinformation
- pressure/bribe on other countries not to interfere

So, OK, "fascism" might not be a valid argument for you when talking about independence , but it is more than a valid one for the majority of Catalans.

And don't worry, independentists do have arguments for the independence.
Don't take the Catalans for " tontos ". You don't have 2M+ people voting for someone just for his nice hair cut...
Just read their program...
It might not suits your point of view and that is fine, I can understand that.

Why are you talking about Franco in the current context. It has nothing to do with current crisis in Catalonian other than people like yourself who cannot give valid reasons for independence so they just scream fascism as if Catalonias were the only people persecuted by Franco. The reason you in invoke Franco is because if I disagree with your position you say that I support Franco, fascism or whatever label you want to give me. This tactic is all over the internet.

bertie 56 wrote: »

And if now this " fascist " subject goes out often , there is reasons :
- Catalonia did suffer more than the average from fascism . Just remember that the Catalonia President was tortured and executed during these dark times, for example.
- What happens now in Catalonia is softer, of course, comparing to what has happens in the past. Still, how not to see fascism when you see :
- democratic rights denied
- military forces beating up peaceful civilians , with use of prohibited weapon
- censorship
- political prisoners
- media disinformation
- pressure/bribe on other countries not to interfere

Well done you've just outlined the charges against the independence movement when they broke their own Catalonia statutes of autonomy when they couldn't get a majority in their own parliament so decided to hold a referendum anyway which they then passed over to a group of pro independence volunteers who ordered the ballot boxes from Alibaba.com, took custody of the ballot boxes and ballot papers with no census or election register and slept overnight in the polling stations. If it wasn't for the fact that it was an illegal election it would be the the best example of gross election fraud that Robert Mugabe would be proud of. After all this with only a 43% turnout, because why would you vote in an illegal election unless you were for independence, the Local government makes a UDI which again they couldn't pass with a majority in their own parliament but true to form they wouldn't let democracy get in the way so declared a UDI anyway.

So who exactly are the fascists when they don't represent a majority in Catalonia but decide to make a UDI and attempt to force the majority of people in Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain to live under their man made nationalist ideology that is willing to subvert their own democratic institutions at every single opportunity.

We have been over this ad nauseam on this thread. All of these points are objectionable facts which you choose to ignore and keep circling back to using labels like fascism and invoking Franco.

Brendan Bendar

Surely this thread has run it's course?

v638sg7k1a92bx

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Surely this thread has run it's course?

You would think so but some posters chose to ignore the facts and circle back to the same ground.

recedite

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Surely this thread has run it's course?

Not yet, there's elections coming up soon, on Dec 21st.
Separatists still slightly ahead in opinion polls.

Puigdemont, who maintains he’s the legitimate regional president after being sacked by the central government, will lead a new platform under the banner of Together for Catalonia. He said on Saturday a victory at the polls on Dec. 21 would serve to ratify his mandate and send a signal to the European Union, which has repeatedly sided with the government of Mariano Rajoy against unilateral attempts for independence.

Brendan Bendar

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

You would think so but some posters chose to ignore the facts and circle back to the same ground.

Agree there, this stunt didn't work.

These lads seem to be flogging a dead horse, in my opinion.

They seem to want chaos and upset for some strange reason.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

They seem to want chaos and upset for some strange reason.

Because they are under investigation...

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Why are you talking about Franco in the current context. It has nothing to do with current crisis in Catalonian other than people like yourself who cannot give valid reasons for independence so they just scream fascism as if Catalonias were the only people persecuted by Franco. The reason you in invoke Franco is because if I disagree with your position you say that I support Franco, fascism or whatever label you want to give me. This tactic is all over the internet.


Well done you've just outlined the charges against the independence movement when they broke their own Catalonia statutes of autonomy when they couldn't get a majority in their own parliament so decided to hold a referendum anyway which they then passed over to a group of pro independence volunteers who ordered the ballot boxes from Alibaba.com, took custody of the ballot boxes and ballot papers with no census or election register and slept overnight in the polling stations. If it wasn't for the fact that it was an illegal election it would be the the best example of gross election fraud that Robert Mugabe would be proud of. After all this with only a 43% turnout, because why would you vote in an illegal election unless you were for independence, the Local government makes a UDI which again they couldn't pass with a majority in their own parliament but true to form they wouldn't let democracy get in the way so declared a UDI anyway.


So who exactly are the fascists when they don't represent a majority in Catalonia but decide to make a UDI and attempt to force the majority of people in Catalonia who want to remain part of Spain to live under their man made nationalist ideology that is willing to subvert their own democratic institutions at every single opportunity.

We have been over this ad nauseam on this thread. All of these points are objectionable facts which you choose to ignore and keep circling back to using labels like fascism and invoking Franco.

Please don't play the " victim " card. Unless you are a member of the PP-PSOE government, I haven't said that you have affinities with fascism.
And please don't twist what I said : Catalonia wasn't the only place in Spain where people suffered from the fascism, everybody knows that .
But everybody knows too that Franco did hit harder there, as in Basque Country too . You can't deny this.
It is not an internet tactic, it's a fact.


Clearly there, I don't know where you get your numbers !
I haven't seen nowhere that the " unionists " people has the majority ...
Not in the parliament, not in the streets ...
They always played the card of the boycott when they clearly see that they are in minority . That was the case for the people in the referendum ( although some unionists did vote ) , and during the vote for the independence in the parliament.
So if this was the majority, don't you think that Madrid would have allowed the referendum ? Or organize a real one ?
Where was this " majority" during the vote about independence ???
Come on, a bit of common sense here....

bertie 56

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Surely this thread has run it's course?

Nobody is forcing you to follow or react to this thread.

And there is something new about the situation everyday :

-El Jueves ( comic magazine ) is in trouble for this joke
http://www.eljueves.es/news/continua-presencia-antidisturbios-acaba-con-las-reservas-cocaina-cataluna_1616

- control of personal communications of the public servants in Catalonia
http://elmon.cat/politica/155-vigila-mobils-mails-dels-treballadors-publics

- Big fake campaign about the intervention of Russia in the independence process
http://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-cni-no-detectado-ningun-ciberataque-gobierno-ruso-crisis-catalana-20171121124053.html

etc, etc....

Still one month to go before the 21/12 , but we already see the Spain dirty tricks coming out... What next ? :rolleyes:

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Because they are under investigation...

You are right there, Ted !

900 Partido Popular political leaders under investigation , in 75 separate cases of corruption . Nine hundred !

http://www.elnacional.cat/es/politica/radio-alemana-rajoy-tapa-la-corrupcion-catalunya_213639_102.html

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Please don't play the " victim " card. Unless you are a member of the PP-PSOE government, I haven't said that you have affinities with fascism.
And please don't twist what I said : Catalonia wasn't the only place in Spain where people suffered from the fascism, everybody knows that .
But everybody knows too that Franco did hit harder there, as in Basque Country too . You can't deny this.
It is not an internet tactic, it's a fact.


Clearly there, I don't know where you get your numbers !
I haven't seen nowhere that the " unionists " people has the majority ...
Not in the parliament, not in the streets ...
They always played the card of the boycott when they clearly see that they are in minority . That was the case for the people in the referendum ( although some unionists did vote ) , and during the vote for the independence in the parliament.
So if this was the majority, don't you think that Madrid would have allowed the referendum ? Or organize a real one ?
Where was this " majority" during the vote about independence ???
Come on, a bit of common sense here....

Nonsense, your post is all over the place. The independence movement has never had a majority in Catalonia. They can't even get a majority in their own Parliament which is why they broke their own Catalonian Statutes of Autonomy to hold a "referendum" There was no boycott, the vote was illegal.

All of your points have been discussed ad nausea, we can't keep covering the same ground. The independence movement is finished, it's leaders are in exile or in jail. The attempted coup failed, move on.

Brendan Bendar

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Nonsense, your post is all over the place. The independence movement has never had a majority in Catalonia. They can't even get a majority in their own Parliament which is why they broke their own Catalonian Statutes of Autonomy to hold a "referendum" There was no boycott, the vote was illegal.

All of your points have been discussed ad nausea, we can't keep covering the same ground. The independence movement is finished, it's leaders are in exile or in jail. The attempted coup failed, move on.

Yes, I'd concur with that view, why people put so much store on an illegal and totally skewed vote is puzzling,as the people supporting staying within Spain by and large didn't turn out.

Really this event is past its sell by, very little use kicking the carcass around.

It isn't coming back.

bertie 56

That is both of you your point of view, and I respect it.

But saying that " the independence movement has never had a majority in Catalonia " is wrong. Once again, check the numbers .

And what about the new president of the Generalitat of Catalonia ? Representing 8.5% of the population : you don't see a problem there ???

Yes, you could hope that the independentist movement is dead , but I don't think it is.
You can't silent 2M+ people with law articles. See last demonstration in Barcelona for the political prisoners . Have a look the 7th of Dec in Brussels. See polls about the 21/12.
Catalan people are just sick not to be listened and respected, to be beaten and condemn for their basic rights.

Just let them have a proper referendum about what they want for their future , as Scotland did. That's it. Is that too complicated ???

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

That is both of you your point of view, and I respect it.

But saying that " the independence movement has never had a majority in Catalonia " is wrong. Once again, check the numbers .

Yes, you could hope that the independentist movement is dead , but I don't think it is.
You can't silent 2M+ people with law articles. See last demonstration in Barcelona for the political prisoners . Have a look the 7th of Dec in Brussels. See polls about the 21/12.
Catalan people are just sick not to be listened and respected, to be beaten and condemn for their basic rights.

Just let them have a proper referendum about what they want for their future , as Scotland did. That's it. Is that too complicated ???

I'm sorry but lets look at the facts again. This is not my opinion just facts.

In the last elections, the Catalan pro-independence parties got 1,975,348 votes out of a census of 5,510,798. Of all the Catalans with the right to vote in Catalonia, 35% opted for one pro-independence party or another. Catalonia voted overwhelmingly for the democratic Spanish Constitution in 1978 after the death of Franco. It was supported by 90% of the Catalan people. The same constitution gives Catalonia more autonomy than practically any other region in the world. There is no “oppression”, no inhibition of cultural, linguistic or economic ambitions, and no political obstacles of any kind.

The Spanish Constituion is the rule book, if Pushthemoney had stayed within those democratic rules there would be no direct rule in Catalonia, you cannot try and be referee and at the same time refuse to play by the rules. All Pushthemoney and his friends need to do is pass a bill in the Catalonian Parliament with the required majority and there wouldn't be a problem, instead he is trying to force the majority of people in Catalonia to live under his ideological man made nationalist movement.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I'm sorry but lets look at the facts again. This is not my opinion just facts.

In the last elections, the Catalan pro-independence parties got 1,975,348 votes out of a census of 5,510,798. Of all the Catalans with the right to vote in Catalonia, 35% opted for one pro-independence party or another. Catalonia voted overwhelmingly for the democratic Spanish Constitution in 1978 after the death of Franco. It was supported by 90% of the Catalan people. The same constitution gives Catalonia more autonomy than practically any other region in the world. There is no “oppression”, no inhibition of cultural, linguistic or economic ambitions, and no political obstacles of any kind.

The Spanish Constituion is the rule book, if Pushthemoney had stayed within those democratic rules there would be no direct rule in Catalonia, you cannot try and be referee and at the same time refuse to play by the rules. All Pushthemoney and his friends need to do is pass a bill in the Catalonian Parliament with the required majority and there wouldn't be a problem, instead he is trying to force the majority of people in Catalonia to live under his ideological man made nationalist movement.

Your facts are wrong , my friend .
You put in the same bag the people who went voting, and the ones who stayed in bed that day because they don't give a damn about politics...
At least you could have take the right number : 5,510,853 was the number of registered voters .
On this amount, 4,114,244 was the number of valid votes. That is already 1.4 M of difference with your number !

On this, 4 political parties are for a maintain of Catalonia in Spain :
Ciutadans , with 736.364 voters - 25 seats
P. dels Socialistes de Catalunya with 523.283 voters - 16 seats
Partit Popular with 349.193 voters - 11 seats
Recortes Cero - Els Verds with 14.444 voters - 0 seats
That makes 1.623.284 votes, which makes 39.45% of voters and 52 seats
Please note that P. dels Socialistes de Catalunya with 16 seats are in favor of a constitutional reform.

Political parties that are in favor of a referendum :

Catalunya Sí que es Pot with 367.613 voters - 11 seats
Unió Democràtica de Catalunya - 103.293 voters - 0 seats
Guanyem Catalunya 1.167 voters - 0 seats
Pirates de Catalunya - 327 voters - 0 seats

That makes 472.400 votes, which is 11.48 % , and 11 seats.
Please note that Catalunya Sí que es Pot - 11 seats - is in favor of a constitutional reform, to reach independence.

Political parties that are strictly in favor of independence ( after referendum ):

Junts pel Sí : 1.628.714 voters - 62 seats
Candidatura d'Unitat Popular : 337.794 voters - 10 seats

That makes 1.966.508 votes , which is 47.80 % of votes , with 72 seats

The "Partit Animalista" with 0.73% of votes hasn't been counted. I couldn't figured out which "side" they are .They are against tauromachy (spanish national sport ) thought...


So , to resume :
In number of votes, the main independentist party " Junts pel Sí" had more voters than the four " unionists " parties together.Added to the other independentist party, that is more than 300.000 voters of difference, in favor of the independentist parties.
So, clearly, Independentist parties have a majority against the unionists ones .

59.28% of the voters wants a referendum . Clear majority here once again.

72 seats out of 135 for the independentist parties. That is a majority here as well.
83 seats out of 135 in favor of a referendum. Clear majority.

I can add the 2014 referendum , with 92% of voters in favor of a new state ( 2.3 Millions )
Number of people that demonstrate. ... etc...


About the 1978 Constitution : Yes, voted at a majority by Catalans . 40 years ago. The people that did vote for it are dead by now. Don't you think that things have changed since ? The death penalty is still present in this Constitution, for telling you ...

" no “oppression”, no inhibition of cultural, linguistic or economic ambitions, and no political obstacles of any kind " as you said :
Never heard about the 2006 new Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, approved at a majority with a referendum ? And then declared partially un-constitutionnal ?
Never heard about the bull-fighting ban that has been overturned by the Constitutional Court ?
...Etc...

For the rest, I let you explaining the " ideological man made nationalist movement " ...

( PS : you should check somewhere else than in El Pais for objective numbers ... And I don't talk about objective information !!! :-) )

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

Your facts are wrong , my friend .
You put in the same bag the people who went voting, and the ones who stayed in bed that day because they don't give a damn about politics...
At least you could have take the right number : 5,510,853 was the number of registered voters .
On this amount, 4,114,244 was the number of valid votes. That is already 1.4 M of difference with your number !

On this, 4 political parties are for a maintain of Catalonia in Spain :
Ciutadans , with 736.364 voters - 25 seats
P. dels Socialistes de Catalunya with 523.283 voters - 16 seats
Partit Popular with 349.193 voters - 11 seats
Recortes Cero - Els Verds with 14.444 voters - 0 seats
That makes 1.623.284 votes, which makes 39.45% of voters and 52 seats
Please note that P. dels Socialistes de Catalunya with 16 seats are in favor of a constitutional reform.

Political parties that are in favor of a referendum :

Catalunya Sí que es Pot with 367.613 voters - 11 seats
Unió Democràtica de Catalunya - 103.293 voters - 0 seats
Guanyem Catalunya 1.167 voters - 0 seats
Pirates de Catalunya - 327 voters - 0 seats

That makes 472.400 votes, which is 11.48 % , and 11 seats.
Please note that Catalunya Sí que es Pot - 11 seats - is in favor of a constitutional reform, to reach independence.

Political parties that are strictly in favor of independence ( after referendum ):

Junts pel Sí : 1.628.714 voters - 62 seats
Candidatura d'Unitat Popular : 337.794 voters - 10 seats

That makes 1.966.508 votes , which is 47.80 % of votes , with 72 seats

The "Partit Animalista" with 0.73% of votes hasn't been counted. I couldn't figured out which "side" they are .They are against tauromachy (spanish national sport ) thought...


So , to resume :
In number of votes, the main independentist party " Junts pel Sí" had more voters than the four " unionists " parties together.Added to the other independentist party, that is more than 300.000 voters of difference, in favor of the independentist parties.
So, clearly, Independentist parties have a majority against the unionists ones .

59.28% of the voters wants a referendum . Clear majority here once again.

72 seats out of 135 for the independentist parties. That is a majority here as well.
83 seats out of 135 in favor of a referendum. Clear majority.

I can add the 2014 referendum , with 92% of voters in favor of a new state ( 2.3 Millions )
Number of people that demonstrate. ... etc...


About the 1978 Constitution : Yes, voted at a majority by Catalans . 39 years ago. Don't you think that things have changed since ? The death penalty is still present in this Constitution, for telling you ...

" no “oppression”, no inhibition of cultural, linguistic or economic ambitions, and no political obstacles of any kind " as you said :
Never heard about the 2006 new Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, approved at a majority with a referendum ? And then declared partially un-constitutionnal ?
Never heard about the bull-fighting ban that has been overturned by the Constitutional Court ?
...Etc...

For the rest, I let you explaining the " ideological man made nationalist movement " ...

( PS : you should check somewhere else than in El Pais for objective numbers ... And I don't talk about objective information !!! :-) )

I thought the people who stayed in bed were boycotting the election? When the numbers suit you they are people staying in bed with no interest in politics, when the numbers don't suit you they are unionists boycotting the election, you can't have it both way so which is it?

Your post is just rambling emotions over fact. If the independence movement had a majority in Catalonia they would be able to to get a majority in their own parliament and pass a bill in the Catalan Parliament to call a referendum on independence.

We'll break this down in baby steps with a simple question. If a majority of people in Catalonia want independence, why can't Puigdemont and his government pass a bill in their own Parliament without breaking their own statutes of autonomy?

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

About the 1978 Constitution : Yes, voted at a majority by Catalans . 40 years ago. The people that did vote for it are dead by now. Don't you think that things have changed since ? The death penalty is still present in this Constitution, for telling you ...

The Spanish constitution is younger that Ireland, Germany, France and Italy. Should all these countries rewrite their constitution on the basis that most of the people are dead?

In Ireland when we want to change the constitution, take the upcoming abortion referendum as an example, a bill passes through Parliament and then a vote is put to the citizens to decide Yes or No. In the case of Catalonia, they couldn't even pass the bill in their own Parliament but decided to have one anyway and then declare the results legally binding.

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

" no “oppression”, no inhibition of cultural, linguistic or economic ambitions, and no political obstacles of any kind " as you said :
Never heard about the 2006 new Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia, approved at a majority with a referendum ? And then declared partially un-constitutionnal ?
Never heard about the bull-fighting ban that has been overturned by the Constitutional Court ?
...Etc...

Pobericto, so oppressed. People would think that you were living in Palestine judging by your posts. What rights would the people of Catalonia gain by being an independent country that are currently being repressed by the Spanish government?

First Up

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Pobericto, so oppressed. People would think that you were living in Palestine judging by your posts. What rights would the people of Catalonia gain by being an independent country that are currently being repressed by the Spanish government?

I have to say I find the Catlans have become an increasing pain in the ass. I visit Spain (including Barcelona) fairly regularly and I recall a year or two back ordering a coffee in Barcelona (in Spanish.) The waiter - who knew I wasn't local - took offence and said (in English) "that is not our language here". I politely asked him (in Spanish) for the Catalan version and the difference is that "please" in Spanish is por favor and in Catalan its closer to the French S'il vous plait. I thanked him (in French) for this valuable cultural and linguistic lesson.

He didn't get a tip.

recedite

Also "merci" is the normal "thanks", but if you were anything other than a culturally insensitive buffoon, you would have picked that up on the first day.

v638sg7k1a92bx

recedite wrote: »

Also "merci" is the normal "thanks", but if you were anything other than a culturally insensitive buffoon, you would have picked that up on the first day.

He was speaking in the national language, how is that culturally insensitive?

First Up

recedite wrote: »

Also "merci" is the normal "thanks", but if you were anything other than a culturally insensitive buffoon, you would have picked that up on the first day.

I was saying please while ordering. As it happens, I said merci at the end but as much out of sarcasm as anything else.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

He was speaking in the national language, how is that culturally insensitive?

By saying this, you are just showing that , since the beginning, you have understood nothing about Catalonia....:(

Galego

First Up wrote: »

The waiter - who knew I wasn't local - took offence and said (in English) "that is not our language here".

He didn't get a tip.

Thankfully, majority of catalan are not like that. The waiter was just a total p..ck (and excuse my French there). :-)

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

I thought the people who stayed in bed were boycotting the election? When the numbers suit you they are people staying in bed with no interest in politics, when the numbers don't suit you they are unionists boycotting the election, you can't have it both way so which is it?

Your post is just rambling emotions over fact. If the independence movement had a majority in Catalonia they would be able to to get a majority in their own parliament and pass a bill in the Catalan Parliament to call a referendum on independence.

We'll break this down in baby steps with a simple question. If a majority of people in Catalonia want independence, why can't Puigdemont and his government pass a bill in their own Parliament without breaking their own statutes of autonomy?

I'll try to explain you in an easy way :

The election I gave the results was the regional elections, with all parties represented.
There was no call of boycott, it was the same type of elections we have around to elect representatives. So, like everywhere, the ones that stayed in bed that day are the ones that don't care of politics.

The referendum one was different. The "unionnist" parties has called for a boycott of the referendum. That was done to prevent any legitimacy in the vote.
This time, the ones that stayed in bed that day are the ones that don't care of politics + the ones that were boycotting the vote on purpose.

The vote in the Parliament was the same : " unionnists " did boycott the vote, leaving the room before the vote . So boycott here again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuwIk_G_lnY

Hope you get that subtility.

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

We'll break this down in baby steps with a simple question. If a majority of people in Catalonia want independence, why can't Puigdemont and his government pass a bill in their own Parliament without breaking their own statutes of autonomy?

What is blocking is the Spanish Constitution.
The only way to obtain something under the Spanish rules is through the modification of this Constitution . This is done in the Spanish parliament. And I talk about just having a referendum, not about the independence yet !

The equivalent in marriage law would be :

" A married woman needs the permission of her husband and of the extended family of the husband to divorce ."

Just a thought : the PP which is the key political party in Spain to makes things evolve is just representing 8.5 % of the population of Catalonia.
But whatever you do, when it's no, it's no ...:rolleyes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z0RVrKkg8k

bertie 56

Celia Late Troop wrote: »

Pobericto, so oppressed. People would think that you were living in Palestine judging by your posts. What rights would the people of Catalonia gain by being an independent country that are currently being repressed by the Spanish government?

"Pobrecito" , you mean, no ?

1 - https://spanishpolice.github.io/
Happy viewing !

2 - Google " ¿Por qué Cataluña quiere su independencia? "
Happy reading !

v638sg7k1a92bx

bertie 56 wrote: »

By saying this, you are just showing that , since the beginning, you have understood nothing about Catalonia....:(

Are you saying that Spanish is not the national language in Spain? lol