Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Catalan independence referendum, 2017
Comments
-
-
-
Celia Late Troop wrote: »Read my previous post.
I did, but you were editing while I was answering !!!
0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »So it was a Parliamentary election as opposed to a presidential election as you suggested? This victim mentality that the independent movement has adopted is not working because your arguments don't stand up to scrutiny.
You suggest that Carles Puigdemont is the elected President of Catalonia as if all the people of Catalonia had voted for him .
???
I suggested nothing !
You say few times " Puigdemont hasn't been elected "
I answered few times : " You are wrong , he has been elected "
The way it works for electing a president in Catalonia is different as the way the Irish President is elected, hence your difficulties to understand.
The Parliament was elected the 25th of Sept 2015 by the people .
And then, the Parliament has elected Puigdemont the 10th of January 2016 with a majority.
Please note that Puigdemont has already been elected by the people as member of the Parliament. His political party did reach 40% of the overall number of votes. ( the second party was with 18% ).
That is the way it works to elect the President in Catalonia. I think it's pretty fair, but , of course, you could prefer the Irish way, I have no problem with that.
Still, nobody can say that it is not a fair and democratic way .
The way Soraya Sáenz de Santamaria arrived in power as President is way different.
Coming from Madrid , coming from a minority party in Catalonia ( 8% of representation ), she hasn't been chosen or elected at all .
And therefore, she is not recognize by the vast majority of Catalonia as the legitimate President.
To make it short : a coup d'etat.
0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »You cannot pick and choose the parts of the Spanish Constitution which allows Puigdemont to be President but cry foul when those rules allow Soraya Sáenz to be president.
This is the whole issue with the independence movement, they want to pick and choose the rules to suit their side of the argument and when the results don't go their way they scream oppression.
Well, of course you can ! Without trying to be victim or whatever you are saying...
They are not the same " rules " anyway ! One is about elections, the other one is the 155 ...:D:D
Nobody is rejecting the full Spanish Constitution...
The same way the pro-choice groups here are asking for the modification of the Irish Constitution. They don't reject the full Constitution, do they ??? :rolleyes:0 -
Advertisement
-
Well, of course you can ! Without trying to be victim or whatever you are saying...
They are not the same " rules " anyway ! One is about elections, the other one is the 155 ...:D:D
Nobody is rejecting the full Spanish Constitution...
The same way the pro-choice groups here are asking for the modification of the Irish Constitution. They don't reject the full Constitution, do they ??? :rolleyes:
So you're not rejecting the Spanish constitution by making a UDI and declaring Catalonia as an independent country?0 -
Celia Late Troop wrote: »So you're not rejecting the Spanish constitution by making a UDI and declaring Catalonia as an independent country?
Well, personnally, I'm not, I haven't make any UDI myself !
But I suppose the point of view of the people who did this UDI is the following :
" The Spanish Constitution is for the Spanish people , let's have our own Catalan Constitution for us, Catalan people "
You will have to talk with them to be sure !
But they definitively reject the monarchy system anyway .
They certainly think that the Republic system is more democratic .( but you have the right to think the opposite ! ) 0 -
-
-
???
I suggested nothing !
You say few times " Puigdemont hasn't been elected "
I answered few times : " You are wrong , he has been elected "
The way it works for electing a president in Catalonia is different as the way the Irish President is elected, hence your difficulties to understand.
The Parliament was elected the 25th of Sept 2015 by the people .
And then, the Parliament has elected Puigdemont the 10th of January 2016 with a majority.
Please note that Puigdemont has already been elected by the people as member of the Parliament. His political party did reach 40% of the overall number of votes. ( the second party was with 18% ).
That is the way it works to elect the President in Catalonia. I think it's pretty fair, but , of course, you could prefer the Irish way, I have no problem with that.
Still, nobody can say that it is not a fair and democratic way .
The way Soraya Sáenz de Santamaria arrived in power as President is way different.
Coming from Madrid , coming from a minority party in Catalonia ( 8% of representation ), she hasn't been chosen or elected at all .
And therefore, she is not recognize by the vast majority of Catalonia as the legitimate President.
To make it short : a coup d'etat.
The entire country of Spain elected the PP and Soraya Sanez, that includes Catalonia. Just because you don't like the fact that 155 has been enacted does not make it illegitimate. You cannot get to be referee and simultaneously refuse to play by the rules. The independence movement know there was a risk that 155 would be enacted but pressed ahead anyway. They stepped outside the rule of law and it blew up their face, you cannot cry foul when you break the rules and then events don't go your way. That's like stealing from the cash register and then saying how unfair it is when you boss finds out and you get fired.
All of your posts have just been attempts to muddy the waters with half truths because you don't want to discuss the facts and would rather throw around statements about "unelected" presidents, and use words like Franco and fascism.
The independence movement has lost. It was badly managed, badly led and it has been out-maneuvered. Their leadership overplayed their hand and forced other countries within the EU to pick sides. The upcoming elections will finish them off.0 -
Advertisement
-
Celia Late Troop wrote: »
All of your posts have just been attempts to muddy the waters with half truths because you don't want to discuss the facts
I don't accept that from you. All information in my posts have been double-checked and can be easily re-checked if needed. Please contact me if you have any doubt.
I don't think we can say the same about your side : " President no elected " , " majority/minority mix " , " Catalonia has always been Spanish ", " no boycott ", " most of the people living in Catalonia are originally from Puerto Hurraco", etc, etc ... all these ideas you have that could have been checked by a couple of clicks in Google before being posted here.
And I won't talk about your confusion between the Change of Statute in Catalonia and the Constitutional Reform in Spain :rolleyes:Celia Late Troop wrote: »The entire country of Spain elected the PP and Soraya Sanez, that includes Catalonia.
Facts: ( last Congress general elections )
- PP has been elected with 33% of votes at a national level . Not a majority then ( majority starts at 50% )
- PP got 13 % of votes in Catalonia , arriving in 5th position.
If you count by number how many votes from Catalonia went for the PP at a national level, you arrive at 1.93 % . Less than 2% ...
So , yes, you are right, Catalonia did elected PP , but a bit weakly, I would say ... :rolleyes:
( I haven't counted the way you do ( based on all registered voters ), I would have arrive to 1.27 %
)Celia Late Troop wrote: »The upcoming elections will finish them off.
So far, the majority of the polls are putting the independentists as the major political force in the country...0 -
-
I don't accept that from you. All information in my posts have been double-checked and can be easily re-checked if needed. Please contact me if you have any doubt.
I don't think we can say the same about your side : " President no elected " , " majority/minority mix " , " Catalonia has always been Spanish ", " no boycott ", " most of the people living in Catalonia are originally from Puerto Hurraco", etc, etc ... all these ideas you have that could have been checked by a couple of clicks in Google before being posted here.
And I won't talk about your confusion between the Change of Statute in Catalonia and the Constitutional Reform in Spain :rolleyes:
Facts: ( last Congress general elections )
- PP has been elected with 33% of votes at a national level . Not a majority then ( majority starts at 50% )
- PP got 13 % of votes in Catalonia , arriving in 5th position.
If you count by number how many votes from Catalonia went for the PP at a national level, you arrive at 1.93 % . Less than 2% ...
So , yes, you are right, Catalonia did elected PP , but a bit weakly, I would say ... :rolleyes:
( I haven't counted the way you do ( based on all registered voters ), I would have arrive to 1.27 % )
So far, the majority of the polls are putting the independentists as the major political force in the country...
This is what I'm talking about, suggesting that PP only got 2% of the vote at a national level is just spreading misinformation hoping that anyone reading his who wasn't familiar with the situation in Spain would that you misinformation as fact.
Pushthemoney and his party didn't get a majority in Catalonia but you seem to accept them as being democratically elected but in the same breath you refuse to accept PP as being democratically elected because they haven't got an overall majority in Spain???0 -
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
Celia Late Troop wrote: »Whether you like it or not, Catalonia is still part of Spain and Rajoy is the President no matter how much your mathematics don't add up.
" Catalonia is still part of Spain" : that is your view , but it is not the one of the majority of Catalans, once again...
" your mathematics don't add up " : I'm waiting for yours ...Celia Late Troop wrote: »I notice how you use the term "independence movement" to describe the coalition of political parties in Catalonia but refer to PP in isolation. None of the political parties in Catalonia have a overall majority but again you are being disingenuous by referring to the "Independence movement" as having 72 seats as if it was one political party when you know that it is made up of a number of parties who formed a coalition some of whom have very different political ideologies.
Since page 1 here, we are talking about the independent movement. We are at page 88 now...
Yes, I'm aware that the independent movement is a union of political parties ( and social, and cultural, and civic, etc..as well .).
And one political party is an union of different tendencies.
And one tendency is a reunion of different individuals with different points of views . And then what ?
That doesn't change the fact that all these people agreed one day on an idea and a program which was the independence. These people now are represented with the majority of seats in the Catalan Parliament. That's it !
And more people again agreed on a program to set up a referendum.
I don't think it is relevant to take only one independent party since the independence is a objective common with other parties .
But since you insist on that, let see the representation :
ONE independantist party : Junts pel Sí : - 62 seats
The ALL THREE unionnist parties :
Ciutadans - 25 seats
P. dels Socialistes de Catalunya - 16 seats
Partit Popular - 11 seats
That makes 52 seats
Conclusion is , if you take ALL unionists parties , PP and friends as you suggested, the unionists representation is still a minority compares to just ONE independent party ...
These are facts, my friend.
( my post #1248 was giving already these information, by the way ... )Celia Late Troop wrote: »...to pass any legislation on independence a two thirds majority is required but the "independence movement" broke their own rules when they decided to push ahead with the referendum and tried to pass legislation so that only a simple majority was required and once again breaking their own parliamentary rules.
We've talked about it already and I told you to get information about the legal side of it.
You don't seem to have done it, therefore it is useless that we talk about it again...( and again... )Celia Late Troop wrote: »what rights would Catalonia gain by being an independent country, you haven't been able to answer either of these questions?
I, and other posters have answered to that already. Now if our answers is not what you want to hear, bad for you...
Add my post #1305 to the answers already posted.Celia Late Troop wrote: ». You think just because his political party doesn't have a strong representation in certain constituencies that somehow the election results don't apply to you.
I haven't say that. At all .
The only thing I said is that, for me, the best representation of the country is someone that has been elected with 40 % of voters ( Puigdemont ) and not someone that hasn't been elected and represent 8% of voters ( Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría )
Now you have the right to think the opposite, no bother for me ( once you are not in power in my constituency ! ) 0 -
-
-
" Catalonia is still part of Spain" : that is your view , but it is not the one of the majority of Catalans, once again...
" your mathematics don't add up " : I'm waiting for yours ...
Not my my opinion but an objectionable fact until there is a democratic legal referendum in which all the citizens of Spain get to decide as per the constitution.Since page 1 here, we are talking about the independent movement. We are at page 88 now...
Yes, I'm aware that the independent movement is a union of political parties ( and social, and cultural, and civic, etc..as well .).
And one political party is an union of different tendencies.
And one tendency is a reunion of different individuals with different points of views . And then what ?
That doesn't change the fact that all these people agreed one day on an idea and a program which was the independence. These people now are represented with the majority of seats in the Catalan Parliament. That's it !
And more people again agreed on a program to set up a referendum.
I don't think it is relevant to take only one independent party since the independence is a objective common with other parties .
But since you insist on that, let see the representation :
ONE independantist party : Junts pel Sí : - 62 seats
The ALL THREE unionnist parties :
Ciutadans - 25 seats
P. dels Socialistes de Catalunya - 16 seats
Partit Popular - 11 seats
That makes 52 seats
Conclusion is , if you take ALL unionists parties , PP and friends as you suggested, the unionists representation is still a minority compares to just ONE independent party ...
These are facts, my friend.
( my post #1248 was giving already these information, by the way ... )
This is just more waffle. Anyone can look up the number of seats in the Catalan parliament but fact remains that the independence parties cannot pass a two thirds majority in their own Parliament which is why the referendum was deemed unconstitutional.We've talked about it already and I told you to get information about the legal side of it.
You don't seem to have done it, therefore it is useless that we talk about it again...( and again... )
I, and other posters have answered to that already. Now if our answers is not what you want to hear, bad for you...
Add my post #1305 to the answers already posted.
You've talked around it but have never been able to answer the questions. None of the posters here have been able to say what rights or freedoms they will gain by being an independent country that they don't already have as being part of Spain and a member of the European Union.
Another objectionable fact that you keep choosing to ignore and would rather spam this thread by copying and pasting percentages and number of seats and to talk about fascism and Franco, is that the Catalonian Statutes of Autonomy require a two thirds majority to pass a referendum on Catalonia independence which the pro independence parties do not have.I haven't say that. At all .
The only thing I said is that, for me, the best representation of the country is someone that has been elected with 40 % of voters ( Puigdemont ) and not someone that hasn't been elected and represent 8% of voters ( Soraya Sáenz de Santamaría )
With all due respect, your opinion doesn't count.
You want to apply a different set of criteria to Catalonia and people in favour of independence than for those who want to remain part of Spain. For example, how did you come up with the magic number of 40% as being an acceptable percentage to be president of Catalonia? Did you just decide that in the past five minutes or is it because it suits your argument at this point in time?Now you have the right to think the opposite, no bother for me ( once you are not in power in my constituency ! )
You are also not in power in your constituency that would be Soraya Sanez 😉
If the pro independence parties win the elections on the 21 December and have enough seats to pass a bill in the Catalan parliament by a two thirds majority which allows them to call a referendum on Catalan independence you won't have any objections from me. But until they get to that stage, they simply do not have a mandate for independence.0 -
-
-
Celia Late Troop wrote: »Not my my opinion but an objectionable fact until there is a democratic legal referendum in which all the citizens of Spain get to decide as per the constitution.
Yep. Very democratic. At a point that it has been done this way in Scotland : all UK did vote. Or Gibraltar : all Spain did vote.
And everybody found it normal and democratic.
I'll go a bit more democratic than you, though : Since Spain is part of Europe, it will only be fair if every citizen of Europe votes for or against the independence of Catalonia ..
What do you think ?
Democratic at best, eh !
If we ask him, Juncker might even find a European law somewhere talking about this...:D:DCelia Late Troop wrote: »Anyone can look up the number of seats in the Catalan parliament ...
Well, then do it, before posting...
And since you asked for facts, I don't want to hear any complains now.:PCelia Late Troop wrote: »the independence parties cannot pass a two thirds majority in their own Parliament which is why the referendum was deemed unconstitutional.
Wrong.
The referendum wasn't declared unconstitutional for this reason . Check it.Celia Late Troop wrote: »the Catalonian Statutes of Autonomy require a two thirds majority to pass a referendum on Catalonia independence which the pro independence parties do not have
Wrong again ! .
You'll need to read more than the line of Wikipedia that talks about it , to get the whole picture about the legal process . ( once again :rolleyes: ...)Celia Late Troop wrote: »For example, how did you come up with the magic number of 40% as being an acceptable percentage to be president of Catalonia? Did you just decide that in the past five minutes or is it because it suits your argument at this point in time?
It doesn't come from me, but from the Parliament of Catalonia who decided this at a majority of votes the 10th of January 2016.
Not my idea, sorry.... :cool:Celia Late Troop wrote: »If the pro independence parties win the elections on the 21 December and have enough seats to pass a bill in the Catalan parliament by a two thirds majority which allows them to call a referendum on Catalan independence you won't have any objections from me.
Wrong again ! (no 2 )
Once again and again , that is not what is needed to have a legal referendum .
Check again ...:rolleyes:0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Yep. Very democratic. At a point that it has been done this way in Scotland : all UK did vote. Or Gibraltar : all Spain did vote.
And everybody found it normal and democratic.
I'll go a bit more democratic than you, though : Since Spain is part of Europe, it will only be fair if every citizen of Europe votes for or against the independence of Catalonia ..
What do you think ?
Democratic at best, eh !
If we ask him, Juncker might even find a European law somewhere talking about this...:D:D
Well, then do it, before posting...
And since you asked for facts, I don't want to hear any complains now.:P
Wrong.
The referendum wasn't declared unconstitutional for this reason . Check it.
Wrong again ! .
You'll need to read more than the line of Wikipedia that talks about it , to get the whole picture about the legal process . ( once again :rolleyes: ...)
It doesn't come from me, but from the Parliament of Catalonia who decided this at a majority of votes the 10th of January 2016.
Not my idea, sorry.... :cool:
Wrong again ! (no 2 )
Once again and again , that is not what is needed to have a legal referendum .
Check again ...:rolleyes:
Scotland is a country, Catalonia is not. The Scottish vote was sanctioned by U.K. Parliament the Catalan referendum couldn't even be sanctioned by the Catalan parliament.
Still waiting on answer to what rights Catalonia will have as an independent country and why can't the pro independence parties pass a 2/3 majority in their own Parliament?0
Advertisement